Brexit or Britin

[Hoboh]

Annnnd on the subject of cheaper EU call roaming, I see my service provider is bumping up the monthly cost of my tariff (and others)

Wonder why?

[Bijou Bob]

Interestingly, for me anyway, I've just been speaking to my son. He's 19 and about to beggar off travelling round the Far East. He's solidly behind voting 'Out' as he reckons are most of his mates. I thought the youth vote was supposed to be solidly 'In'??

[thebish]

^^ Well, make you're mind up. They're either useless piss-pots or they're sad unfortunate people who just need a break in life.

If they're totally useless then we may as well drop them in the Ocean as they're simply drains to us. If it's the latter then give them the chance.


My colours are fully nailed to the first mast btw. Just that it sounds like you're picking & choosing depending on who you're trying to wind up.

no idea what you're on about! I simply don't want someone described as workshy and lazy forced into treating my gran in hospital! simple!

But that's a ridiculous scenario to be honest, Bish. Someone who's workshy and lazy won't have the necessary qualifications. Nobody's talking about Johnny Scratchcard treating you Nan at all.

yet - NHS nursing is one of the pinchpoints where non home-grown labour is widely used...

[thebish]

The immigration argument is nonsense. The govt.'s target for immigration is 100k per year. Yet our non-EU figure, the figure for immigration we control entirely and could stop as many as we want is 150k. So even if we had literally 0 immigrants from Europe, we'd still have far more immigrants than the govt's targets. Maybe, we need them?

I thought Cameron's target was "tens of thousands"...

[Lord Kangana]

Unusually I'm more with Bruce & Bobo on this one. It beggars belief that a sandwich company in Derby, advertises for workers living in Hungary to fill their vacancies (this is the main example I can remember) - whilst as a nation we're paying several thousand people in Derby some form of ESA/JSA/Income Support

I think you should perhaps consider who is posting the ad, and who stands to benefit from workers who (initially) don't speak enough English to understand their rights when it comes to shameless exploitation.

In the majority of cases, employee retention is poor, even for the fantastically-hard-working/benefits-and-job-stealing* foreigners who fill these posts when the crushing reality of the cost of living in this country hits home, versus the pittance they receive for an incredibly hard days work.

This is a sad reality of the industry I've spent my life working in. I find it just a little silly to discuss it in such outdated terms as "workshy".


*delete depending on which page of the Daily Mail has been turned.

[thebish]

According to economists, the economic argument at least seems pretty clear...

According to an IPSOS Mori poll of more than 600 economists, 88% of those who replied said leaving the EU single market would damage Britain's growth prospects over the next five years.

[Enoch]

According to economists, the economic argument at least seems pretty clear...

According to an IPSOS Mori poll of more than 600 economists, 88% of those who replied said leaving the EU single market would damage Britain's growth prospects over the next five years.

What does that actually mean?

Is it that by 2021 every citizen will be furnished with their 'iPhone 19 superslick you can't live without it'?

I can't wait!

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Do we know how many of those 88% predicted the financial meltdown of a few years ago? Would also be interesting to know how many of them were predicting doom if we didn't join the Euro way back when.

[thebish]

Do we know how many of those 88% predicted the financial meltdown of a few years ago? Would also be interesting to know how many of them were predicting doom if we didn't join the Euro way back when.

who knows! but people keep asking for information from non-self-interested-politicos, from people who might be thought to know what they are talking about! 88% seems like quite high agreement.

yes - you could dismiss them all - but then I think you'd have to abandon your search for any opinion at all that carries any weight!

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Do we know how many of those 88% predicted the financial meltdown of a few years ago? Would also be interesting to know how many of them were predicting doom if we didn't join the Euro way back when.

who knows! but people keep asking for information from non-self-interested-politicos, from people who might be thought to know what they are talking about! 88% seems like quite high agreement.

yes - you could dismiss them all - but then I think you'd have to abandon your search for any opinion at all that carries any weight!

Just trying to establish credibility. Some of the 'experts' trotted out in the media these days are nothing of the sort. Hopefully the 88% isn't made up of A level economists!

[thebish]

Do we know how many of those 88% predicted the financial meltdown of a few years ago? Would also be interesting to know how many of them were predicting doom if we didn't join the Euro way back when.

who knows! but people keep asking for information from non-self-interested-politicos, from people who might be thought to know what they are talking about! 88% seems like quite high agreement.

yes - you could dismiss them all - but then I think you'd have to abandon your search for any opinion at all that carries any weight!

Just trying to establish credibility. Some of the 'experts' trotted out in the media these days are nothing of the sort. Hopefully the 88% isn't made up of A level economists!

I haven't got the list - but there were 600 who replied - and I guess they'd have to be well-known or accredited in such a way that IPOS could contact them...

as for A-level economists - we already have one of them on the forum...

[bobo the clown]

When I was at uni ... studying Economics ... the bulk of the lecturers were Marxist.

Their economics turned out well then.

[Lord Kangana]

Is the economy f*cked at the moment whilst we've been part of Europe for 4 decades?

If it isn't, and yet Europe is such a bad thing, why has no-one suggested that we'll all be much better off financially by leaving the EU?

A fighting chance at not being much worse off seems a little bit of a paper-thin reason to change anything. Unless of course, you're connected to the financial sector in this country and are sh*t scared that potential EU regulation will put an end to your own private party. And all you have to do is collect enough fellow travellers together by scaring them with patriotism trick number one "they come over here....".

[Hoboh]

Is the economy f*cked at the moment whilst we've been part of Europe for 4 decades?

If it isn't, and yet Europe is such a bad thing, why has no-one suggested that we'll all be much better off financially by leaving the EU?

A fighting chance at not being much worse off seems a little bit of a paper-thin reason to change anything. Unless of course, you're connected to the financial sector in this country and are sh*t scared that potential EU regulation will put an end to your own private party. And all you have to do is collect enough fellow travellers together by scaring them with patriotism trick number one "they come over here....".

Or you have a private pension, unlike Osborne claims, a lot of pensioners and pension funds will be worse of to the tune of £400 million if we stay due to EU rules and regulation.

Just as aside, have our recessions not taken place whilst in the EU?

The ones they blame on being closely linked to other countries?

Portugal, Greece etc. catches a cold, we get flu!

[thebish]

When I was at uni ... studying Economics ... the bulk of the lecturers were Marxist.

Their economics turned out well then.

I'd be surprised if your uni lecturers made up the bulk of the 600 economists who responded...

what do you actually think about the economics of staying in/leaving? anything?

[bobo the clown]

When I was at uni ... studying Economics ... the bulk of the lecturers were Marxist.

Their economics turned out well then.

I'd be surprised if your uni lecturers made up the bulk of the 600 economists who responded...

what do you actually think about the economics of staying in/leaving? anything?

I'm pointing out, as you well know, that the 'experts' all have their own bias and are frequently wrong. Always have been & always will be. Most wanted us in the Euro. Great decision making. Many of the academics no more have their feet in reality than you or I.

... & a good number of these will have said Gideon's economic management 6 years ago would have us in disaster. The IMF itself did, for Gawd's sake. As Kangana so eloquently points out, our economy is a long way from being in tatters. It's in a better state than most other European ones. Never realised he was such a fan of the Tories over the past few years. Bravo.

My view .... without a shadow of doubt, should we elect to leave the first year will have us all over the place. After that & the uncertainties settle down I honestly don't know. No-one does. But one thing's for sure ... we won't be a basket case then any more than we would be if we stay.

Economics is vital but theviver-reaching political ambition of the one-Europe types is more so to me. Not because economics can be neglected but because we will be fundamentally OK either way.


Meanwhile I still expect a "remain" outcome. But not so convincing that it will be buried for a generation. Which is a shame.

[thebish]

My view .... without a shadow of doubt, should we elect to leave the first year will have us all over the place. After that & the uncertainties settle down I honestly don't know. No-one does. But one thing's for sure ... we won't be a basket case then any more than we would be if we stay.

Economics is vital but theviver-reaching political ambition of the one-Europe types is more so to me. Not because economics can be neglected but because we will be fundamentally OK either way.

I think we're in broad agreement - I don't think we'd be a "basket case" either way... I DO think we'd be worse off out of the EU - because the trading deals we could consequently negotiate (over a longer period than a year, I imagine) I cannot imagine being better than the ones we currently have access to... We don't have to become an economic basket case for people to notice being worse off...

so - for me the economics is important - but like you, not the only (or even the most important) thing. I have a gut feeling that the way the world is moving is against more sharply defined borders and barriers - whether we like it or not - and in the climate - globalisation if you like - it is better to have well-established and ongoing partnerships rather than re-emphasising independence... we are not independent and never will be - we are interdependent...

I am disappointed by the IN campaign in its ridiculous grand-standing - but in the hands of osborne and cameron, I guess that's to be expected, and they must figure that's the language people like to hear... it turns me off, though not as much as the language of the OUT campaign...

total disaster won't befall us whichever way we choose - for either side to suggest it is that sharp a choice is ludicrous - but I would prefer a slender economic advantage over a slender economic disadvantage - and I'd rather take our place in an interconnected Europe than stand outside it claiming to be independent.

the EU is flawed - it isn't a choice between a perfect thing and a disastrous thing - it's a choice between a flawed thing and a thing that makes us less economically strong and less connected than even the flawed thing does!

but I guess that's not a great soundbite and hence the reason no politicians will quote me!

[Lord Kangana]

The last 40 years having roughly 50% tory governments.

Perhaps this is why you're struggling with the economic argument?

[bobo the clown]

Aaaw, Bish. Group hug {{☆}}.

LK'S welcome too. The great big Osborne loving lump.

No. It won't all be sorted out in a year. But the fundamental issues will be known. I don't believe the new treaties will be unsurmountable other than with the EU itself as it would want to discourage others to review their position plus wanting a bit of "get your own back".

But I DO believe "this", as they used to day at the Reebok, "is just the beginning" & a lot of countries are beginning to push at the boundaries in the EU, disatisfied by the impositions from the centre. Maybe not before time.

The behaviour of both camps has been appalling .... maybe I'm biased but I think the 'Remain' has been the worse of the two. The massive choreographed exaggerations have done their case no favours at all.

[TANGODANCER]

One of the most disturbing things about the in-out-shake it all about debate, to a politico no-nowt like me, is the fact that it isn't a strictly political situation involving, Tories say/Labour Says, Ukip Says..etc etc. I listened to a sensible sounding chap the other night (James Cleverley) who outlined the gulf of disageeement within the Tory party alone. To me, this bodes ill for a sensible decision from any of them. I'll be quite happy to be educated on this.