Brexit or Britin

[Harry Genshaw]

^ aye it was those in marginal seats scared of losing votes to UKIP

[Hoboh]

I missed the itv debate but caught question time. Chris Grayling(leave) & Hillary Benn (stay) both impressed me. Farage, for all the stick he gets and attempts to cast him as a racist is a very skilled orator imo. I was leaning towards 'IN' but I'm back at 'OUT' today.

Anyone could do what Farage does,...

Oh aye. History is littered with individuals that single handedly developed a political party from nothing to a major player. You might not like him or ukip but would we be even having a vote if it wasn't for Farage?

It's lowest common denominator politics. The idea that he's any great visionary is absolutely nonsense.

Also UKIP aren't a major player anymore than the Greens or the Ulster unionists are...

Sorry I missed the bit about the greens getting 4 million votes in the last election

Greens, a major party? my ass!

[Hoboh]

I'm not sure the general public follow any sort of logic when it comes to politics. If they did, the pollsters might get it right once in a while.

The last couple of by elections held, Oldham in particular, there was talk of a large swing from Labour to UKIP. It wasn't large enough to win UKIP a seat. UKIP's future isn't exactly clear either. Logic would suggest that whichever way the vote goes, the party and it's aims are largely redundant after 23rd June.

I agree there's not much logic, but it's still a big move from centre left - assuming the further left Labour loonies were broadly aligned with Corbyn - to right of the Tories. (Not using "far right" deliberately) but UKIP are further right than the Tories methinks...

Bob is right, a lot of typical Labours supporters are leaning or leaving for UKIP.

To see this you need to look at the last couple of local elections rather than a general one.

Take an example of the Kearsley ward in Bolton, not many (if any) migration related problems, always staunchly Labour with the odd Lib Dem thrown in (mainly, so I'm told. because they were locals and worked their socks off for the ward), Tories a token party.

So according to your way of reckoning there is no way they should have just elected a 'further to the right than the Tories', UKIP councillor then, right?

Wrong.

If the vote goes with remain then I'd expect UKIP to grow massively at the expense of either major party being able to carry large majority's (if at all) in future.

I'm glad you think Bob is right...

There's been plenty of odd balls in mid term elections, it's also not necessarily reflective of what would happen in a General Election. Aside from which, you're talking complete tosh as you usually do.

Looking at the results that Kearsley has been involved in:

Council Election 2012 - Lab Vote 1475, UKIP 0 (no candidate) but serves as a reference point
Council Election 2014 - Lab Vote 1139, UKIP 1096 - biggest losers were the Lib Dems who lost 600 votes
Council Election 2015 - Lab Vote 2331, UKIP 1953 - This was actually a swing away from UKIP to Conservative...
Council Election 2016 - Lab Vote 1248, UKIP 1480 - The councillors are up for election on rotation so you should probably compare this to 2012 - decrease in Labour of 227 on an increased 12% turnout. So yes swing away from Labour of 227, but not all of those necessarily voted UKIP as the turnout was up 12%...

Then when you look at the General Election ward Kearsley is in, there was a 3% increase in the Labour vote in 2015 v 2010. Biggest losers were Tory and Lib Dem...

Don't think the figures support your contention. Then again that doesn't surprise me, they usually don't...

Hardly fails to explain why Little Lever (usually Labour) Kearsley (more often the not Labour) have UKIP councillors now

And why in the North East, in areas with little migration problems, the local Labour party are scared to death about the rise of UKIP.

Why Frank Field and others are getting very concerned about UKIP.

Migration is a huge problem that worries people, something the Remain camp are just waking up to, Corbyn meanwhile does a 'Nelson'.

[BWFC_Insane]

I missed the itv debate but caught question time. Chris Grayling(leave) & Hillary Benn (stay) both impressed me. Farage, for all the stick he gets and attempts to cast him as a racist is a very skilled orator imo. I was leaning towards 'IN' but I'm back at 'OUT' today.

Anyone could do what Farage does,...

Oh aye. History is littered with individuals that single handedly developed a political party from nothing to a major player. You might not like him or ukip but would we be even having a vote if it wasn't for Farage?

It's lowest common denominator politics. The idea that he's any great visionary is absolutely nonsense.

Also UKIP aren't a major player anymore than the Greens or the Ulster unionists are...

Sorry I missed the bit about the greens getting 4 million votes in the last election

Greens, a major party? my ass!

They both have 1 seat.....

[Hoboh]

I missed the itv debate but caught question time. Chris Grayling(leave) & Hillary Benn (stay) both impressed me. Farage, for all the stick he gets and attempts to cast him as a racist is a very skilled orator imo. I was leaning towards 'IN' but I'm back at 'OUT' today.

Anyone could do what Farage does,...

Oh aye. History is littered with individuals that single handedly developed a political party from nothing to a major player. You might not like him or ukip but would we be even having a vote if it wasn't for Farage?

It's lowest common denominator politics. The idea that he's any great visionary is absolutely nonsense.

Also UKIP aren't a major player anymore than the Greens or the Ulster unionists are...

They both have 1 seat.....

CON
36.9%

LAB
30.4%

UKIP
12.6%

LD
7.9%

SNP
4.7%

GRN
3.8%

[thebish]

it seems there's a lot of misinformed opinions out there...

[Hoboh]

And are the remainers are happy for a country who thinks like this to join the EU or even be considered or bribed by a stupid German leader with our cash?

'50 perverts killed in bar': Homophobic headline on Turkish newspaper website with strong ties to country's President Erdogan

[BWFC_Insane]

And are the remainers are happy for a country who thinks like this to join the EU or even be considered or bribed by a stupid German leader with our cash?

'50 perverts killed in bar': Homophobic headline on Turkish newspaper website with strong ties to country's President Erdogan

Agreed. We definitely shouldn't let countries into the EU who have awful newspapers who make things up to suit the right wing establishment.....

[Hoboh]

And are the remainers are happy for a country who thinks like this to join the EU or even be considered or bribed by a stupid German leader with our cash?

'50 perverts killed in bar': Homophobic headline on Turkish newspaper website with strong ties to country's President Erdogan

Agreed. We definitely shouldn't let countries into the EU who have awful newspapers who make things up to suit the right wing establishment.....

Your losing the plot fella, what has that got to do with a countries newspaper, with links to the President, trying to join the EU?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Your losing the plot fella, what has that got to do with a countries newspaper, with links to the President, trying to join the EU?

Well, how pally is Cameron with Murdoch and the ginger woman? A country's newspaper(s) with links to the Prime Minister.

[Hoboh]

Your losing the plot fella, what has that got to do with a countries newspaper, with links to the President, trying to join the EU?

Well, how pally is Cameron with Murdoch and the ginger woman? A country's newspaper(s) with links to the Prime Minister.

Are we trying to appear a democratic country and tolerant populace who should be in the EU?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Your losing the plot fella, what has that got to do with a countries newspaper, with links to the President, trying to join the EU?

Well, how pally is Cameron with Murdoch and the ginger woman? A country's newspaper(s) with links to the Prime Minister.

Are we trying to appear a democratic country and tolerant populace who should be in the EU?

Murdoch is doing his best to convince otherwise.

[Lord Kangana]

I think this thread is trying its best to prove we're not worth a place in Europe.

[Bruce Rioja]

I don't know how much of this is true, however, if much of it is then does this gentleman make a reasonably strong case for the out campaign?

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't.

[Bijou Bob]

Bravo sir. Bravo.

[Worthy4England]

That's so mixed up, I'm not sure where to begin.

Which of the above does the poster believe wouldn't have occurred, had we not been in the EU?

[bobo the clown]

That's so mixed up, I'm not sure where to begin.

Which of the above does the poster believe wouldn't have occurred, had we not been in the EU?

Well ... at a guess ... at least some of those he says received EU grants to help the moves & closures along.

I could be wrong mind.

[Hoboh]

That's so mixed up, I'm not sure where to begin.

Which of the above does the poster believe wouldn't have occurred, had we not been in the EU?

Go on, it doesn't usually stop you

[Hoboh]

Not learned anything Labour have they?

More of the same

Project fear, the very thing turning people to 'out'.

Labour grandees who have held cabinet and shadow cabinet positions, including Charles Clarke, Ed Balls, Charlie Falconer, Harriet Harman, Alan Johnson, Jacqui Smith, Alan Milburn and Jack Straw, also released a joint statement warning that leaving the EU would hit public services and frontline workers.

They said that 525,000 public sector employees would lose their jobs in the wake of a British exit from the EU

[thebish]

hmmm... let's just pick one of those astonishing facts...

UK airports are variously owned... only Luton airport is owned by a spanish operator...




lots of stuff on tha list is owned by companies and consortiums across the EU only because our UK elected (democratic) government privatised them - thus making them available for sale, surely?