The Politics Thread

[KeyserSoze]

Best to nationalise all medical research instead #saveournhs

[thebish]

I think this labour election is just a giant scam... allegedly more people have spunked £25 to register than spunked £3 last time - which has amounted to a very welcome £4.5million into labour coffers for no work at all - and no having to sell off policies to the investment bankers or pharma-conglomerates or owt to get the cash...

[Bruce Rioja]

Well, I thought that Corbyn came across extremely well, as usual. Is it the idea of Labour supporters just for them to get into government at any old cost, or to have a party built on its principals?

[BWFC_Insane]

Well, I thought that Corbyn came across extremely well, as usual. Is it the idea of Labour supporters just for them to get into government at any old cost, or to have a party built on its principals?

You are in a fairly small minority. And I suspect you only think he's good because he will keep the Tories in for decades.

One might say Cameron abandoned some traditional Tory ideologies or principles to get power. I think that Labour need to be effective. Corbyn is completely ineffective on every level. And arguably hell bent on making the party entirely unelectable on the basis of a personal crusade or in my view bitter revenge.

[thebish]

Well, I thought that Corbyn came across extremely well, as usual. Is it the idea of Labour supporters just for them to get into government at any old cost, or to have a party built on its principals?

You are in a fairly small minority. And I suspect you only think he's good because he will keep the Tories in for decades.

I suspect Bruce actually means what he says - that Corbyn came across extremely well...

[thebish]

Well, I thought that Corbyn came across extremely well, as usual. Is it the idea of Labour supporters just for them to get into government at any old cost, or to have a party built on its principals?

You are in a fairly small minority. And I suspect you only think he's good because he will keep the Tories in for decades.

One might say Cameron abandoned some traditional Tory ideologies or principles to get power.

such as?

[Worthy4England]

Well, I thought that Corbyn came across extremely well, as usual. Is it the idea of Labour supporters just for them to get into government at any old cost, or to have a party built on its principals?

Like many parties, government is the target. I'm fairly certain we've just had a referendum because the current party of govt couldn't agree its principals (which were to stay in Europe)...


Brexit deflected neatly from all three of Osborne's golden principals heading out of the exit. Nikki Morgan dropped academies everywhere, pretty much all of Johnson/Gove's principals (with some apologies for accusing them of having any) went the day after the vote...

So yes, I think some have to fall by the wayside to get in, in the first place. Sad but true.

[thebish]

to be fair, the pre-corbynites (the set-up that Eagle and Burnham were very much part of - both put forward as the great new hope in the last 9 months or so) were not much cop at winning power either. They lost two elections in a row and totally imploded in scotland and lost the London mayor-ship to the tories and saw the victory of UKIP in the european elections... I don't remember labour MP outrage that their then leader did not persuade labour voters to vote pro-europe back then...

that's not to say corbyn is the answer - but simply to point out that pre-corbyn safe non-lefty middle-of-the-roadness was also a huge electoral disaster...

[Prufrock]

Well, I thought that Corbyn came across extremely well, as usual. Is it the idea of Labour supporters just for them to get into government at any old cost, or to have a party built on its principals?

Like many parties, government is the target. I'm fairly certain we've just had a referendum because the current party of govt couldn't agree its principals (which were to stay in Europe)...


Brexit deflected neatly from all three of Osborne's golden principals heading out of the exit. Nikki Morgan dropped academies everywhere, pretty much all of Johnson/Gove's principals (with some apologies for accusing them of having any) went the day after the vote...

So yes, I think some have to fall by the wayside to get in, in the first place. Sad but true.

It's not sad it's beautiful. There are countries where they are still arguing about whether actual communism or actual fascism are good things. We're spectacularly lucky to live in a country where literally the worst thing in our politics (natch) is that you have to compromise sometimes.

Ideologues are terrifying. Witness the people who can't say that they'd accept privatisation in the nhs if it would make it better. feck that.

[Worthy4England]

That's nothing to do with middle of the roadness...it's to do with having a party leader who was a tit. And rightly or leftly, no govt who happened to be in power during the global financial meltdown were likely to get re-elected in 2010 and it didn't really matter a whit what Milliband's policies were coz he didn't sound credible...

[thebish]

That's nothing to do with middle of the roadness...it's to do with having a party leader who was a tit. And rightly or leftly, no govt who happened to be in power during the global financial meltdown were likely to get re-elected in 2010 and it didn't really matter a whit what Milliband's policies were coz he didn't sound credible...

and looked a bit odd (and a bit jewish) when confronted with a bacon roll...

[Worthy4England]

Well, I thought that Corbyn came across extremely well, as usual. Is it the idea of Labour supporters just for them to get into government at any old cost, or to have a party built on its principals?

Like many parties, government is the target. I'm fairly certain we've just had a referendum because the current party of govt couldn't agree its principals (which were to stay in Europe)...


Brexit deflected neatly from all three of Osborne's golden principals heading out of the exit. Nikki Morgan dropped academies everywhere, pretty much all of Johnson/Gove's principals (with some apologies for accusing them of having any) went the day after the vote...

So yes, I think some have to fall by the wayside to get in, in the first place. Sad but true.

It's not sad it's beautiful. There are countries where they are still arguing about whether actual communism or actual fascism are good things. We're spectacularly lucky to live in a country where literally the worst thing in our politics (natch) is that you have to compromise sometimes.

Ideologues are terrifying. Witness the people who can't say that they'd accept privatisation in the nhs if it would make it better. feck that.

The problem is that privatization rarely makes anything much better, apart from shareholders.

If I take rail, for example, I was more than happy with part of my tax paying for the service when it ran reasonably on time and the only occasion you stood up, generally, was to stretch your legs..

I can recall John McGregor saving the steel industry.

I'd be more than happy with a little more overstaffing in A&E...

Gas n Electric - what a great deal we're getting out of that...Water, BT....

All things we used to own and strangely enough I'm not paying less tax and I get ripped off by the fcrs I used to own as well....con of the century.

Anyone got any great privatization stories?

I'm not suggesting we should re-nationalize, but I genuinely struggle to get which services have improved by shifting to private sector. Where they increase efficiency, that tends to go to the shareholder not the consumer.

[Prufrock]

Not a lot of that I disagree with. Few tweaks here and there (I think opticians are better, for example, but then there is actually a market there) but what you seem to have done is cleverly argued that privatisation would NOT make the NHS better, and I'd broadly agree. These nutters, and JC (it's not a cult) is one if them, wouldn't have it if it did make it better.

[Prufrock]

Also, all you Corbyn folk who hoped he'd eventually step down for a younger, more electable lefty...that's what this is, without the stepping down. Sort it out.

[Bruce Rioja]

You are in a fairly small minority. And I suspect you only think he's good because he will keep the Tories in for decades.

You're no stranger to coming out with complete and utter bollocks.

Anyone a little more level-headed care to answer my genuine question?

Edit: Cheers All - interesting.

[BWFC_Insane]

Well, I thought that Corbyn came across extremely well, as usual. Is it the idea of Labour supporters just for them to get into government at any old cost, or to have a party built on its principals?

You are in a fairly small minority. And I suspect you only think he's good because he will keep the Tories in for decades.

One might say Cameron abandoned some traditional Tory ideologies or principles to get power.

such as?

Pre 2010 did he not drag the Tory party away from tradition to the centre on crime, immigration, the environment etc.....

[BWFC_Insane]

You are in a fairly small minority. And I suspect you only think he's good because he will keep the Tories in for decades.

You're no stranger to coming out with complete and utter bollocks, but you've just surpassed yourself.

Anyone a little more level-headed care to answer my genuine question?

It was a tongue in cheek comment that is all.

It isn't good for the country to have only one political party capable of winning the next election. Principles or not. And if Labour want to change anything they have to be able to win.

[thebish]

Not a lot of that I disagree with. Few tweaks here and there (I think opticians are better, for example, but then there is actually a market there) but what you seem to have done is cleverly argued that privatisation would NOT make the NHS better, and I'd broadly agree. These nutters, and JC (it's not a cult) is one if them, wouldn't have it if it did make it better.

well - so you reckon - but that's just your guesswork. It is quite possible that they simply believe (like you appear to believe) that it WOULDN'T make it better... unless you have some kind of quote that backs what you are saying up...

how are opticians better?

[thebish]

Well, I thought that Corbyn came across extremely well, as usual. Is it the idea of Labour supporters just for them to get into government at any old cost, or to have a party built on its principals?

You are in a fairly small minority. And I suspect you only think he's good because he will keep the Tories in for decades.

One might say Cameron abandoned some traditional Tory ideologies or principles to get power.

such as?

Pre 2010 did he not drag the Tory party away from tradition to the centre on crime, immigration, the environment etc.....

what - you mean his election photo with the huskies?? seriously?? I don't think he dragged them anywhere!

post election - and I have praised him more than onvce on here for this - he bravely pushed through same-sex marriage - I hope that's his legacy, cos that was a brave thing to do - but he didn't do that to get power - that was after gaining it...

[thebish]

You are in a fairly small minority. And I suspect you only think he's good because he will keep the Tories in for decades.

You're no stranger to coming out with complete and utter bollocks, but you've just surpassed yourself.

Anyone a little more level-headed care to answer my genuine question?

It was a tongue in cheek comment that is all.

It isn't good for the country to have only one political party capable of winning the next election. Principles or not. And if Labour want to change anything they have to be able to win.

and you already declared all three candidates for the labour leadership (when Eagle was still in) to be unelectable...