For new signings, ask the man from the Pru

[boltonboris]

BN says Parky turned down two offers for Vela from Champo clubs last week; he wants to keep him. Sun says Wigan offered £250,000 plus our old friend Craig Davies.

I'd have taken that if we could keep him fit, which is a big, big doubt

[BWFC_Insane]

Not a huge Vela fan. Were Pratley fit I'd say sell. But clearly we'd have to replace him as it stands so would be a little pointless unless we got a monster offer and personally I don't think he's close to being worth the sort of money that would make a difference.

Not sure what Craig Davies would add over Madine and Proctor. Another big lad who puts himself about without a great record of goals. Proctor to me looks like he'll do a job we need some pace up there, and whilst Davies is mobile I think we need something different.

[bobo the clown]

BN says Parky turned down two offers for Vela from Champo clubs last week; he wants to keep him. Sun says Wigan offered £250,000 plus our old friend Craig Davies.

if parky sees summat there - then let's hope he can bring it out - he's still young enough to learn.

That's better.

There's certainly something not quite about him at the moment. But a brand new manager sees something, as do some other clubs so maybe, just maybe, there actually IS something to be got ??

[BWFC_Insane]

BN says Parky turned down two offers for Vela from Champo clubs last week; he wants to keep him. Sun says Wigan offered £250,000 plus our old friend Craig Davies.

if parky sees summat there - then let's hope he can bring it out - he's still young enough to learn.

That's better.

There's certainly something not quite about him at the moment. But a brand new manager sees something, as do some other clubs so maybe, just maybe, there actually IS something to be got ??

He's got talent it is more a question of having the right attitude.

[boltonboris]

He generally keeps the ball well, but he just doesn't offer enough. We always look a man short in midfield when he plays thre

[Worthy4England]

The problem with "having talent" is that's it's only ever any use if you actually use it. Often the difference between top class and bottom of the class is that a player is more consistent in their use of the talent they have (which is slightly different than what you're saying Insano). There does come a point where you start questioning whether they actually can apply that talent on more than a once every 20 games basis.

I'm fairly sure those of a certain age will have spent some time practicing the "Ardiles flick" or the "Beckenbauer turn" (or maybe just passing in a straight line ) - that's a level of talent. Being able to consistently reproduce it is the differentiator.

I do think quite a few of our ressies/yougsters have some talent. I'm dubious around their ability to reproduce it on anything like a consistent enough basis. We do seem rather good at ascribing an almost Andranik level of world class ability to some of them and quite a few for me are at an age where if it isn't translating into consistent, then it probably isn't going to. Vela is 22, I'd hardly describe him as a youngster anymore, Nolan bagged 8 league goals in the Prem at 19. Hunt was established at 20. Muamba was playing pretty regularly at 20. All looked more consistent than Vela.

[BWFC_Insane]

The problem with "having talent" is that's it's only ever any use if you actually use it. Often the difference between top class and bottom of the class is that a player is more consistent in their use of the talent they have (which is slightly different than what you're saying Insano). There does come a point where you start questioning whether they actually can apply that talent on more than a once every 20 games basis.

I'm fairly sure those of a certain age will have spent some time practicing the "Ardiles flick" or the "Beckenbauer turn" (or maybe just passing in a straight line ) - that's a level of talent. Being able to consistently reproduce it is the differentiator.

I do think quite a few of our ressies/yougsters have some talent. I'm dubious around their ability to reproduce it on anything like a consistent enough basis. We do seem rather good at ascribing an almost Andranik level of world class ability to some of them and quite a few for me are at an age where if it isn't translating into consistent, then it probably isn't going to. Vela is 22, I'd hardly describe him as a youngster anymore, Nolan bagged 8 league goals in the Prem at 19. Hunt was established at 20. Muamba was playing pretty regularly at 20. All looked more consistent than Vela.

Hmm. So what makes the consistent ones consistent then? I mean if you have the raw talent and ability to do something, surely application is primarily a case of desire and effort and willpower?

Or is it that some players are just more able to produce their ability during a match than others? And if so, what makes that difference?

[Worthy4England]

Think it's maybe a bit simpler. I used to play darts badly. I had enough talent to hit the odd 180. Twice. No amount of practising helped me up that rate. Effectively I'd reached my ceiling. No amount of effort was likely to change that. I might have hit another one but never going to be consistent enough for a 9 dart finish. All the desire, effort and willpower in the world isn't going to change it..

[thebish]

BN says Parky turned down two offers for Vela from Champo clubs last week; he wants to keep him. Sun says Wigan offered £250,000 plus our old friend Craig Davies.

if parky sees summat there - then let's hope he can bring it out - he's still young enough to learn.

That's better.

There's certainly something not quite about him at the moment. But a brand new manager sees something, as do some other clubs so maybe, just maybe, there actually IS something to be got ??

He's got talent it is more a question of having the right attitude.

nahhh - I know people say it a lot - but I just don't buy that Vela isn't trying, not really - or that he doesn't care... I do question whether he is good enough to really earn his place - but at the moment I reckon Parky's judgement on that one is better than mine and I'm happy to see him persist...

[LeverEnd]

It's not necessarily about trying. Some people's decision making ability goes to pot under pressure or shenanigans confidence is low. I suspect that's where Vela is at. Passing sideways and taking the safe option.

[bobo the clown]

Agreed. It's very rare indeed that someone genuinely doesn't try. But maybe he's lost some motivation ... or maybe trying but unsure of what's expected of him, so floundering. That then becomes a vicious circle, downward.

Clearly sees himself as a central midfielder, but his 'success' has come mostly out of position at full back.

As boris and I will tell you ... piss easy position that.

[LeverEnd]

Plus I like Craig Davies a lot more than Madine. He's not brilliant but has a better attitude on and off the pitch and finishes better. Sadly I can't see him playing consistently again due to injury and we need a different type to what we've got.

[BWFC_Insane]

Think it's maybe a bit simpler. I used to play darts badly. I had enough talent to hit the odd 180. Twice. No amount of practising helped me up that rate. Effectively I'd reached my ceiling. No amount of effort was likely to change that. I might have hit another one but never going to be consistent enough for a 9 dart finish. All the desire, effort and willpower in the world isn't going to change it..

Isn't that though saying they're not really talented? I think darts is a bit of a messy example being a sport primarily associated with consistency.

But you're sort of saying the more talented you are the more consistently you can apply that talent. Which in my view isn't necessarily true. Shearer for example used to practice for hours a day hitting a ball against a tree trunk and reacting to where it bounced off the tree. Now, the talent had to be there but the level he reached to an extent was down to mainly application.

There are examples of players with huge natural talent not reaching their potential either. There is probably some sort of ideal balance but if Vela or anyone hits a ceiling then that suggests that talent is the barrier. If they don't but still cannot apply said talent it suggests something else is missing, somewhere...surely?

Perhaps it is the Olympics and hearing of all the work some of those athletes put in for their 5 minutes every 4 years but I wonder how many young footballers don't really maximise the initial ability they have.

[thebish]

Think it's maybe a bit simpler. I used to play darts badly. I had enough talent to hit the odd 180. Twice. No amount of practising helped me up that rate. Effectively I'd reached my ceiling. No amount of effort was likely to change that. I might have hit another one but never going to be consistent enough for a 9 dart finish. All the desire, effort and willpower in the world isn't going to change it..

Isn't that though saying they're not really talented? I think darts is a bit of a messy example being a sport primarily associated with consistency.

But you're sort of saying the more talented you are the more consistently you can apply that talent. Which in my view isn't necessarily true. Shearer for example used to practice for hours a day hitting a ball against a tree trunk...

shearer used to practice with Trotter??

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

More on Vela per BN:

WANDERERS are fighting to keep home-grown midfielder Josh Vela after interest from a Championship club was rebuffed last week.

The Bolton News understands two bids have been rejected for the 22-year-old, who has been identified as a key part of Phil Parkinson’s plans.

Vela is out of contract next summer and has not been offered any new deal to date. He was chased by Cardiff City through much of last season and though the Whites boss is keen to retain his services, a third bid is expected this week to further test the club’s resolve.

There has been an offer but Josh wants to stay here. We don’t want to sell anyone – we want to add to our squad. We can’t let the two wins cloud what we need to do in terms of our squad building. Charlton lost their opening game and then went straight out and bought someone. We can’t settle down and say ‘everything’s fine’ we need to push on again – and part of that is to keep our best players.

Josh ran himself into the ground against Sheffield United on the opening day and I wanted to rest him on Tuesday against Blackpool. In the end we had to play him and he has found it physically tough today [at Wimbledon]. But he is a good player and we would definitely like to keep him.

[Worthy4England]

Think it's maybe a bit simpler. I used to play darts badly. I had enough talent to hit the odd 180. Twice. No amount of practising helped me up that rate. Effectively I'd reached my ceiling. No amount of effort was likely to change that. I might have hit another one but never going to be consistent enough for a 9 dart finish. All the desire, effort and willpower in the world isn't going to change it..

Isn't that though saying they're not really talented? I think darts is a bit of a messy example being a sport primarily associated with consistency.

But you're sort of saying the more talented you are the more consistently you can apply that talent. Which in my view isn't necessarily true. Shearer for example used to practice for hours a day hitting a ball against a tree trunk and reacting to where it bounced off the tree. Now, the talent had to be there but the level he reached to an extent was down to mainly application.

There are examples of players with huge natural talent not reaching their potential either. There is probably some sort of ideal balance but if Vela or anyone hits a ceiling then that suggests that talent is the barrier. If they don't but still cannot apply said talent it suggests something else is missing, somewhere...surely?

Perhaps it is the Olympics and hearing of all the work some of those athletes put in for their 5 minutes every 4 years but I wonder how many young footballers don't really maximise the initial ability they have.

No, not saying not really talented - although I think Vela is a bit limited at the moment. It can come down to lots of minor things. Speed of thought (for example) - as the ball's arriving at him, does he visualize what happens next? If you watched Scholes closely (usually against us), as the ball arrived at him, he knew where it was going next. If he could execute that with fluidity - which he generally did, that's way above someone who has to stop, trap then move it on - fractions of a second - bit like your Olympic athletes - no amount of ability was getting Gatlin to beat Bolt yesterday.

The tree trunk thing - incremental improvement. When I used to play against county/international cricketers, the thing that generally differentiated them over a decent club cricketer was speed of thought and shot selection - rather than range of shots and ability to bat. Fine margins. A ball that I'd be fairly confident was a potential wicket taker in club cricket, they'd manage to pull out of or get there just a little earlier and cut down the swing/seam with much higher frequency than the club cricketer...

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

It can indeed come down to split-second reactions. The reason Guardiola retrained Mascherano as a centre-back was that he wasn't *quite* quick enough at switching play from one wing to the other for Pep to play him in central midfield.

Like most of his colleagues Vela looked a bit lost in the diamond shape early on, but better players than him have also struggled in that system - you often don't know whether to stick or twist. He seems slightly short of confidence but then he was being asked to play two positions at once. I can't say whether he has an "attitude problem" but he didn't lack for effort. What I will say from my experience is that all the ability in the world won't get you to the top without the determination to apply it; similarly, all the determination in the world won't work without class.

[Bijou Bob]

Starts car.........with hope in heart........

[Harry Genshaw]

and I wanted to rest him on Tuesday against Blackpool. In the end we had to play him .

Have we found out what happened to Derik on Tuesday?

[BWFC_Insane]

and I wanted to rest him on Tuesday against Blackpool. In the end we had to play him .

Have we found out what happened to Derik on Tuesday?

Groin injury.