The Politics Thread

[boltonboris]

May called an unnecessary election that made her hostage to the DUP and Mogg & co

At the time, it wasn't unnecessary - It was a smart move. She was miles ahead of Corbyn and Labour and looked like it would be a land slide, but one took a backseat and waited for the apparently inevitable and the other led an energetic, impassioned campaign that whilst very well managed and acted on, has led to a huge increase in division and hatred in this country.

It really was a clusterfuck of epic proportions, the way it all panned out.

A really odd view. Corbyn spoke to real actual people and engaged them. Agree with him or not, he did that.

May appeared robotic and scared and didn't seem to care for much beyond her own political skin. May also led a campaign based on fear (see why remain lost) rather than positive action. Corbyn promised positive action to people, whether he could deliver it or not.

The real dividing issue was that in the campaign Labour tried to appeal to real concerns people have whereas the Tories tried to play up to the press stereotype of Corbyn led Labour and it backfired spectacularly. Yes they "won" the election but it was an election where going in, even a majority of 50 was a disastrous failure given the advantages they had.

The problems the Tory have since remind me of Major's government. They've been in a long time. Stuff is going wrong. Politically and on a wider basis. They can't really blame others for it, and the party is now starting to turn in on itself. Their only hope is that Labour cannot repeat their last election performance and the press do a good job on Corbyn that resonates more widely and across the younger voters. If not I think the next election will be a hung parliament with Labour marginally ahead of the Tories. Now that would be a mess.

He absolutely engaged people. But don't pretend his "nicer, gentler politics" rings true. There is absolute hatred and division between left and right now in this country. Much of that is down to Corbyn/Momentum and their rhetoric. They're driving it. They're pulling out people's passion and too much of it is misguided. To the point now, that there are witch-hunts against legitimately sound businesses who choose to advertise in X or Y publication.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The point is that we could have stayed in the EU and likely affected changes over time. By leaving we probably will have to accept some freedom of movement to secure appropriate trade deals...we may even end up accepting the same freedoms that exist now. Watch this space. May is having to accept everything else so far as our position in this negotiation is incredibly weak.

Without pretending to know politics, that is a purely personal statement based on supposition, wishful thinking and not a shred of fact. Please don't pretend it isn't. We voted to come out of the E.U because we couldn't affect anything and they were the ones doing all the affecting. Or did I get that wrong?

Well, we didn't get what we wanted because instead of working with France and Germany and the like, we acted like a special case and threw our toys out of the pram.

Instead of actively working and saying "the EU administration is not working in our best interests what can we all do about it" we threatened to leave, demanded special dispensation (rather than suggesting the rules change for all) and put everyone's backs up.

Similarly we entered Brexit negotiations with the same attitude and consequently we've bent ourselves over a barrel and the EU are rubbing their hands at our mistakes.

Your post perfectly highlights the problem describing the EU as "they". The EU is a group of countries we WERE the EU. But instead of realising that and working with our fellow club members we saw it as "them against us". And look where we are now.

It was them against us before we joined with de Gaulle chief Themist cheerleader, then it became them against us again when the most ill conceived political notion since Year Zero, I.e. a single currency with no fiscal unity, was launched. 1999/2002 is the main reason I voted Out.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

^
I've given up all hope for the Labour party since Corbyn and the pro-Palestine anti-Israel mob have taken power.

The very essence of the Labour party is about defending the weak against the powerful isn't it?

Whatever your views on the middle east I don't think anyone could view the Palestinian people as being in anything other than a weak position.

The problems Labour has with antisemitism go some distance beyond supporting an underdog

Not being a member of the Labour party , I'll take your word for that. As someone who is unashamedly pro Palestinian in the middle eastern debate my concern is that too often any questioning of Israel and her policies is wrongly and deliberately labelled as anti semitic. This just shuts down debate as it's intended to.

Meanwhile the suffering of the Palestinian people continues

Quite often the 'questioning' of Israel and its policies is actually driven by anti-Semitic sentiment.
The 'suffering of the Palestinian people' as you put it is debatable. If they ceased their constant aggro against the state of Israel it's entirely conceivable no suffering will take place at all. But I'll delve deeper and question the very existence of a 'people'.
Do they have their own language - No.
Do they have a unique religion - No.
Are they a racial group - No.
Did they ever have a state - No.
Basically they are a rump of Arabs who used to live in a Vilayet of the Ottoman Empire and who refused to be part of Transjordan which could have given them statehood, and then caused, and backed the wrong side, in an increasingly non-secular series of wars against Israel. And even though, by my definition, they are not a people, a significant percentage of them live and are citizens of Israel (you know, as in reside within, vote, and shit like that), and a majority of them support a moderate two-state stance. Where's the suffering there? The only ones suffering are those supporting and ruled by barbaric anti-semite factions such as Hamas.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

May called an unnecessary election that made her hostage to the DUP and Mogg & co

At the time, it wasn't unnecessary - It was a smart move. She was miles ahead of Corbyn and Labour and looked like it would be a land slide, but one took a backseat and waited for the apparently inevitable and the other led an energetic, impassioned campaign that whilst very well managed and acted on, has led to a huge increase in division and hatred in this country.

It really was a clusterfuck of epic proportions, the way it all panned out.

A really odd view.....

Hardly, boltonboris has summed it up precisely.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The point is that we could have stayed in the EU and likely affected changes over time. By leaving we probably will have to accept some freedom of movement to secure appropriate trade deals...we may even end up accepting the same freedoms that exist now. Watch this space. May is having to accept everything else so far as our position in this negotiation is incredibly weak.

Without pretending to know politics, that is a purely personal statement based on supposition, wishful thinking and not a shred of fact. Please don't pretend it isn't. We voted to come out of the E.U because we couldn't affect anything and they were the ones doing all the affecting. Or did I get that wrong?

That is a purely personal statement based on supposition, wishful thinking and not a shred of fact. Please don't pretend it isn't

Actually the bit you highlighted was a question. Only you went and left the last bit out, therefore deliberately distorting what Tango asked.
^ That was intended to be a universal reply, not a personal statement, although it has an element of supposition there is no wishful thinking, and the facts are self evident.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

^
I've given up all hope for the Labour party since Corbyn and the pro-Palestine anti-Israel mob have taken power.

What makes me laugh is we have the president of the US dangerously stoking up Islamophobia via his social media. Using faked videos.

Yet Corbyn, who I think anyone would be really hard pushed to make the case that he doesn't want peace and harmony in all regions, gets flak. I mean Corbyn has said some stupid things. But anyone who thinks he genuinely wants to stoke up anti-semiitism in the way Trump is islamophobia wants their bumps feeling.

Though I have a funny feeling, that you will fall into this category. So in advance, I'll say, I respectfully and wholeheartedly agree.

[missed this one first read through.]
1. The videos were hardly faked. One of them, the first, may have been mislabelled as a Muslim refugee but has subsequently turned out not to be that mislabelled - he's a born there citizen who happens to be Muslim.
2. You allow yourself to have nuanced opinions and define yourself that way, but force isms on your opponents. For your education, I support some things that Trump supports including his broad Islamophobic stance, his recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, his determination to make the Mexican border just that - a border; but other things I disagree with fundamentally: such as building an actual fence along the Mexican border, his climate change denial, and his ridiculous attempt to be 'with it' by twattering.
3. There is a fundamental difference between anti-semitism and Islamophobia. The first is racist and out of order, the second is a matter of opinion about what other people think.
And to illustrate what I'm saying: it is wrong to denigrate somebody for the colour of their skin because they have no choice in that matter, but it's ok to denigrate somebody who talks 'wank' ( like a redneck, say) because that is an opinion they have formed.
Jews are born Jews, just like Caucasians are born white, but Muslims, or Rednecks, aren't born , they are inculcated and can change their opinion at any time they want.

[Harry Genshaw]

The only ones suffering are those supporting and ruled by barbaric anti-semite factions such as Hamas.

I'm not going to the argue the sides respective claim to the land with you or even the violence on both sides. Some of that's been going on for centuries but that last point is crap and you know it.

For starters- the children living in villages without running water because it's been turned off by the illegal settlement next door? How's that the fault of Hamas and not the Israeli govt?

[Bruce Rioja]

Tango - a rough summary...

No one did any proper research into the impact of leaving prior to the referendum - thanks for that Dave and George

Didn't that responsibility lie with clueless knobs like Boris?

Ultimately though this whole shitheap has been brought about by those who voted for it. Well done you.

Of course, then likes of BWFC-i use it as an opportunity to use it as a Tories Out paddy, and they couldn't be doing it any worse, but what's to say Labour would be performing any better? At the end of the day no-one had a fecking clue as to what might happen, yet over half the nation voted for that. That will absolutely astonish me forever.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Tango - a rough summary...

No one did any proper research into the impact of leaving prior to the referendum - thanks for that Dave and George

Didn't that responsibility lie with clueless knobs like Boris?

Ultimately though this whole shitheap has been brought about by those who voted for it. Well done you.

Of course, then likes of BWFC-i use it as an opportunity to use it as a Tories Out paddy, and they couldn't be doing it any worse, but what's to say Labour would be performing any better? At the end of the day no-one had a fecking clue as to what might happen, yet over half the nation voted for that. That will absolutely astonish me forever.

As much as Boris and Co should take responsibility for their bullshit and lies, a government should at the very least come up with some assessments of the impact of a referendum they concocted. Remain was a known so they only had homework to do on leave FFS.

The thing that pisses me off is that things like 350ma week for the NHS was just a suggestion, yet the result can only be interpreted correctly as being that which Mogg and Co want. The result could just as easily be interpreted a dozen ways, some of which include a so called soft or hard Brexit. So lets have a 1 page summary for each version (EFTA, Single Market Switzerland/Norway etc, No Single Market, Customs etc etc) and then people choose the one they want. I know Brexiteers don't want any choices given because they're frightened of not exiting. But if the people have spoken then surely the people can confirm the version they want given the lack of options on the ballot paper and the mish mash of opinions and lies of the campaigns. The only option not available is to stay as we are.

We can't trust the incompetents and ideologists in Parliament not to feck this up monumentally.

[Harry Genshaw]

Tango - a rough summary...

No one did any proper research into the impact of leaving prior to the referendum - thanks for that Dave and George

Didn't that responsibility lie with clueless knobs like Boris?

Ultimately though this whole shitheap has been brought about by those who voted for it. Well done you.

Of course, then likes of BWFC-i use it as an opportunity to use it as a Tories Out paddy, and they couldn't be doing it any worse, but what's to say Labour would be performing any better? At the end of the day no-one had a fecking clue as to what might happen, yet over half the nation voted for that. That will absolutely astonish me forever.

The two biggest cheerleaders for Remain were the PM and the Chancellor. The very people who were pushing the austerity agenda.

If you were struggling to make ends meet at the time why wouldn't you vote for a possible alternative? Some folk probably thought they had nothing to lose.

Coupled with media images of folk queuing up outside the banks in Greece as the country seemed on the brink of collapse, it's not difficult to see why some were seduced

[BWFC_Insane]

May called an unnecessary election that made her hostage to the DUP and Mogg & co

At the time, it wasn't unnecessary - It was a smart move. She was miles ahead of Corbyn and Labour and looked like it would be a land slide, but one took a backseat and waited for the apparently inevitable and the other led an energetic, impassioned campaign that whilst very well managed and acted on, has led to a huge increase in division and hatred in this country.

It really was a clusterfuck of epic proportions, the way it all panned out.

A really odd view. Corbyn spoke to real actual people and engaged them. Agree with him or not, he did that.

May appeared robotic and scared and didn't seem to care for much beyond her own political skin. May also led a campaign based on fear (see why remain lost) rather than positive action. Corbyn promised positive action to people, whether he could deliver it or not.

The real dividing issue was that in the campaign Labour tried to appeal to real concerns people have whereas the Tories tried to play up to the press stereotype of Corbyn led Labour and it backfired spectacularly. Yes they "won" the election but it was an election where going in, even a majority of 50 was a disastrous failure given the advantages they had.

The problems the Tory have since remind me of Major's government. They've been in a long time. Stuff is going wrong. Politically and on a wider basis. They can't really blame others for it, and the party is now starting to turn in on itself. Their only hope is that Labour cannot repeat their last election performance and the press do a good job on Corbyn that resonates more widely and across the younger voters. If not I think the next election will be a hung parliament with Labour marginally ahead of the Tories. Now that would be a mess.

He absolutely engaged people. But don't pretend his "nicer, gentler politics" rings true. There is absolute hatred and division between left and right now in this country. Much of that is down to Corbyn/Momentum and their rhetoric. They're driving it. They're pulling out people's passion and too much of it is misguided. To the point now, that there are witch-hunts against legitimately sound businesses who choose to advertise in X or Y publication.

I think personally that the division has been caused by the Tory party and the right wing press. If they hadn't behaved so appallingly towards Corbyn a) the Tories would have a majority now and b) Corbyn wouldn't still be Labour leader.

Sometimes being aggressive and attacking people backfires. It did here.

There are of course loonies on both sides of Labour and both sides of politics generally. Any party that houses that Rees-Mogg character shouldn't be throwing stones at anyone. One of, if not the most disgraceful human beings I've ever come across.

I think the right and right wing media have got away with too much for too long so its good they are being brought into check.

[BWFC_Insane]

^
I've given up all hope for the Labour party since Corbyn and the pro-Palestine anti-Israel mob have taken power.

What makes me laugh is we have the president of the US dangerously stoking up Islamophobia via his social media. Using faked videos.

Yet Corbyn, who I think anyone would be really hard pushed to make the case that he doesn't want peace and harmony in all regions, gets flak. I mean Corbyn has said some stupid things. But anyone who thinks he genuinely wants to stoke up anti-semiitism in the way Trump is islamophobia wants their bumps feeling.

Though I have a funny feeling, that you will fall into this category. So in advance, I'll say, I respectfully and wholeheartedly agree.

3. There is a fundamental difference between anti-semitism and Islamophobia. The first is racist and out of order, the second is a matter of opinion about what other people think.
And to illustrate what I'm saying: it is wrong to denigrate somebody for the colour of their skin because they have no choice in that matter, but it's ok to denigrate somebody who talks 'wank' ( like a redneck, say) because that is an opinion they have formed.
Jews are born Jews, just like Caucasians are born white, but Muslims, or Rednecks, aren't born , they are inculcated and can change their opinion at any time they want.

Not really. Given that Semite originally refers to Jews and Arabs (many of whom may be Muslim and not Jewish).

So, I don't buy your distinction.

And many people aren't born "Jewish" but convert to Judaism. And I strong suspect if they were discriminated against the term "anti-semitism" would be used.

[boltonboris]

May called an unnecessary election that made her hostage to the DUP and Mogg & co

At the time, it wasn't unnecessary - It was a smart move. She was miles ahead of Corbyn and Labour and looked like it would be a land slide, but one took a backseat and waited for the apparently inevitable and the other led an energetic, impassioned campaign that whilst very well managed and acted on, has led to a huge increase in division and hatred in this country.

It really was a clusterfuck of epic proportions, the way it all panned out.

A really odd view. Corbyn spoke to real actual people and engaged them. Agree with him or not, he did that.

May appeared robotic and scared and didn't seem to care for much beyond her own political skin. May also led a campaign based on fear (see why remain lost) rather than positive action. Corbyn promised positive action to people, whether he could deliver it or not.

The real dividing issue was that in the campaign Labour tried to appeal to real concerns people have whereas the Tories tried to play up to the press stereotype of Corbyn led Labour and it backfired spectacularly. Yes they "won" the election but it was an election where going in, even a majority of 50 was a disastrous failure given the advantages they had.

The problems the Tory have since remind me of Major's government. They've been in a long time. Stuff is going wrong. Politically and on a wider basis. They can't really blame others for it, and the party is now starting to turn in on itself. Their only hope is that Labour cannot repeat their last election performance and the press do a good job on Corbyn that resonates more widely and across the younger voters. If not I think the next election will be a hung parliament with Labour marginally ahead of the Tories. Now that would be a mess.

He absolutely engaged people. But don't pretend his "nicer, gentler politics" rings true. There is absolute hatred and division between left and right now in this country. Much of that is down to Corbyn/Momentum and their rhetoric. They're driving it. They're pulling out people's passion and too much of it is misguided. To the point now, that there are witch-hunts against legitimately sound businesses who choose to advertise in X or Y publication.

I think personally that the division has been caused by the Tory party and the right wing press. If they hadn't behaved so appallingly towards Corbyn a) the Tories would have a majority now and b) Corbyn wouldn't still be Labour leader.

Sometimes being aggressive and attacking people backfires. It did here.

There are of course loonies on both sides of Labour and both sides of politics generally. Any party that houses that Rees-Mogg character shouldn't be throwing stones at anyone. One of, if not the most disgraceful human beings I've ever come across.

I think the right and right wing media have got away with too much for too long so its good they are being brought into check.

See you can't blame the right, for people displaying placards saying "Kill Tories", "Hang Tories" etc like we've seen in Manchester and in streets and outside poll stations during the election

[BWFC_Insane]

May called an unnecessary election that made her hostage to the DUP and Mogg & co

At the time, it wasn't unnecessary - It was a smart move. She was miles ahead of Corbyn and Labour and looked like it would be a land slide, but one took a backseat and waited for the apparently inevitable and the other led an energetic, impassioned campaign that whilst very well managed and acted on, has led to a huge increase in division and hatred in this country.

It really was a clusterfuck of epic proportions, the way it all panned out.

A really odd view. Corbyn spoke to real actual people and engaged them. Agree with him or not, he did that.

May appeared robotic and scared and didn't seem to care for much beyond her own political skin. May also led a campaign based on fear (see why remain lost) rather than positive action. Corbyn promised positive action to people, whether he could deliver it or not.

The real dividing issue was that in the campaign Labour tried to appeal to real concerns people have whereas the Tories tried to play up to the press stereotype of Corbyn led Labour and it backfired spectacularly. Yes they "won" the election but it was an election where going in, even a majority of 50 was a disastrous failure given the advantages they had.

The problems the Tory have since remind me of Major's government. They've been in a long time. Stuff is going wrong. Politically and on a wider basis. They can't really blame others for it, and the party is now starting to turn in on itself. Their only hope is that Labour cannot repeat their last election performance and the press do a good job on Corbyn that resonates more widely and across the younger voters. If not I think the next election will be a hung parliament with Labour marginally ahead of the Tories. Now that would be a mess.

He absolutely engaged people. But don't pretend his "nicer, gentler politics" rings true. There is absolute hatred and division between left and right now in this country. Much of that is down to Corbyn/Momentum and their rhetoric. They're driving it. They're pulling out people's passion and too much of it is misguided. To the point now, that there are witch-hunts against legitimately sound businesses who choose to advertise in X or Y publication.

I think personally that the division has been caused by the Tory party and the right wing press. If they hadn't behaved so appallingly towards Corbyn a) the Tories would have a majority now and b) Corbyn wouldn't still be Labour leader.

Sometimes being aggressive and attacking people backfires. It did here.

There are of course loonies on both sides of Labour and both sides of politics generally. Any party that houses that Rees-Mogg character shouldn't be throwing stones at anyone. One of, if not the most disgraceful human beings I've ever come across.

I think the right and right wing media have got away with too much for too long so its good they are being brought into check.

See you can't blame the right, for people displaying placards saying "Kill Tories", "Hang Tories" etc like we've seen in Manchester and in streets and outside poll stations during the election

I think everyone needs to take responsibility. The whole discourse is distasteful. But we have a right wing dominated press that have behaved for decades in the most shameful and provocative way. That is the biggest scandal in this regard. If you can't admit that then you can't have a sensible discussion about this.

There are nutjobs all over on all sides of the political spectrum.

[Hoboh]

I think everyone needs to take responsibility. The whole discourse is distasteful. But we have a right wing dominated press that have behaved for decades in the most shameful and provocative way. That is the biggest scandal in this regard. If you can't admit that then you can't have a sensible discussion about this.

So how's about we start with the brick chucking, riot at any event, black clad masked Ninja's from 'militant' that now have 'Momentum'?
When the wheels come off those little shits or we get licenced to shoot the buggers on sight, chuck in the political pricks and soft arses ruining the education system breeding the I, me, self entitlements, then we maybe able to talk rationally.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think everyone needs to take responsibility. The whole discourse is distasteful. But we have a right wing dominated press that have behaved for decades in the most shameful and provocative way. That is the biggest scandal in this regard. If you can't admit that then you can't have a sensible discussion about this.

So how's about we start with the brick chucking, riot at any event, black clad masked Ninja's from 'militant' that now have 'Momentum'?
When the wheels come off those little shits or we get licenced to shoot the buggers on sight, chuck in the political pricks and soft arses ruining the education system breeding the I, me, self entitlements, then we maybe able to talk rationally.

We could start with you not making nonsense up. Though I suspect that's too much to ask.

I'm very happy to tackle the violent elements on any side of the political spectrum. How about we throw in the BNP its supporters, the EDL and the far right morons who commit acts of violence and incite hatred.

Deal with those on both sides equally. That is fine by me.

[TANGODANCER]

There are nutjobs all over on all sides of the political spectrum.

Which might explain in part why the vote result, even the motion itself, either way is all a bit meaningless then? Having a government is supposed to take the commons sense, best for everyone view and run the country accordingly. A bit unlikely really when "the opposition " is a major part of whichever party is in the driving seat. Seems a bit mission impossible then, does it not, when the politicians spend more time fighting each other than being coalition minded? Let's not pretend it hasn't been that way for ever and a day. To even imagine there is an easy solution anywhere is fantasy. As I have said before, a thousand years of government that hasn't produced an acceptable solution is hardly likely to do it in a couple of days. Anybody even dreaming that the Irish problems for one, will ever go away needs a major headshake. What did Michael Collins say: "I've given the country a peace treaty it has wanted for seven hundred years. In doing so I've probably signed my death warrent." He had, he was assasinated a short time later. The problem isn't with mandates, rules or laws, it with people. It always will be.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The only ones suffering are those supporting and ruled by barbaric anti-semite factions such as Hamas.

I'm not going to the argue the sides respective claim to the land with you or even the violence on both sides. Some of that's been going on for centuries but that last point is crap and you know it.

For starters- the children living in villages without running water because it's been turned off by the illegal settlement next door? How's that the fault of Hamas and not the Israeli govt?

It's always the poor suffering children, never any suffering adults!
Anyway, I totally dispute any nasty illegal Jewish people have cut off any babies' tap water.

[Harry Genshaw]

The only ones suffering are those supporting and ruled by barbaric anti-semite factions such as Hamas.

I'm not going to the argue the sides respective claim to the land with you or even the violence on both sides. Some of that's been going on for centuries but that last point is crap and you know it.

For starters- the children living in villages without running water because it's been turned off by the illegal settlement next door? How's that the fault of Hamas and not the Israeli govt?

It's always the poor suffering children, never any suffering adults!
Anyway, I totally dispute any nasty illegal Jewish people have cut off any babies' tap water.

Ha! Well if I'd said adults you'd have said it was their own fault for voting for Hamas! Much like it was the victims of 7/7 own fault because they voted for Blair?

You're right re the settlements and villages. I made them up. Just don't Google Alfei Menashe or Arab ar Ramadin. It was first exposed there by a bunch of anti semites from an Israeli human rights group. Not only did they turn their water off , they dumped their effluent on them too

[Hoboh]

I think everyone needs to take responsibility. The whole discourse is distasteful. But we have a right wing dominated press that have behaved for decades in the most shameful and provocative way. That is the biggest scandal in this regard. If you can't admit that then you can't have a sensible discussion about this.

So how's about we start with the brick chucking, riot at any event, black clad masked Ninja's from 'militant' that now have 'Momentum'?
When the wheels come off those little shits or we get licenced to shoot the buggers on sight, chuck in the political pricks and soft arses ruining the education system breeding the I, me, self entitlements, then we maybe able to talk rationally.

We could start with you not making nonsense up. Though I suspect that's too much to ask.

I'm very happy to tackle the violent elements on any side of the political spectrum. How about we throw in the BNP its supporters, the EDL and the far right morons who commit acts of violence and incite hatred.

Deal with those on both sides equally. That is fine by me.

Violence, no problem clamp down on it on any side, I kinda draw the line a little on the 'hate speech' thing because too many view Boo! as hate now a days.
If it was rational like the use of the N word etc. No problem but far to many weep at anything now.