The Politics Thread

[bedwetter2]

Absolute nonsense. Double and triple voting isn't a thing. Everyone has a number, it gets checked off. It's possible people could lie and go back but there is no evidence it happens at a vaguely significant level at all. There have been give studies particularly in America where voter ID has been a hot topic for ages and voter impersonation just isn't a thing.

On the other hand, guess who is much less likely to own a passport, driving license or other form of ID...

You can't bring it in unless you bring in compulsory ID cards, and good luck with that.

You may recall your college days. I'm not trying to suggest double or triple voting was a big problem but it was possible for a student to register both at their parents home and digs away from home; hence double voting registration. There was no overall UK wide register to ensure that people could not vote in different constituencies.

The largest issue is postal voting fraud, particularly well represented in constituencies with high numbers of certain ethnic backgrounds.

Neither of which are issues solved by requiring ID.

I agree that neither issue would be solved by the production of ID. However, the Electoral Commission could and should be more rigorous in modernising the way in which voting occurs. It seems to be antiquated when one either takes a card and ID to a polling station or goes through the rigmarole of postal voting. Electronic voting terminals would be the answer but I'm sure some of the Jeremy supporters would have a good moan about that as in some way discriminatory.

I think Tory supporters would be the ones holding that tech back. But I agree, it should be a thing. Get rid of antiquated counts and paper. The reason it isn't is scrutiny. If someone questions an election on paper ballots you can revisit the paper ballots. Electronic voting can never be re-examined can it?

I don't know. It should be possible for voting terminals to create output files showing registration numbers and votes cast.

[BWFC_Insane]

Absolute nonsense. Double and triple voting isn't a thing. Everyone has a number, it gets checked off. It's possible people could lie and go back but there is no evidence it happens at a vaguely significant level at all. There have been give studies particularly in America where voter ID has been a hot topic for ages and voter impersonation just isn't a thing.

On the other hand, guess who is much less likely to own a passport, driving license or other form of ID...

You can't bring it in unless you bring in compulsory ID cards, and good luck with that.

You may recall your college days. I'm not trying to suggest double or triple voting was a big problem but it was possible for a student to register both at their parents home and digs away from home; hence double voting registration. There was no overall UK wide register to ensure that people could not vote in different constituencies.

The largest issue is postal voting fraud, particularly well represented in constituencies with high numbers of certain ethnic backgrounds.

Neither of which are issues solved by requiring ID.

I agree that neither issue would be solved by the production of ID. However, the Electoral Commission could and should be more rigorous in modernising the way in which voting occurs. It seems to be antiquated when one either takes a card and ID to a polling station or goes through the rigmarole of postal voting. Electronic voting terminals would be the answer but I'm sure some of the Jeremy supporters would have a good moan about that as in some way discriminatory.

I think Tory supporters would be the ones holding that tech back. But I agree, it should be a thing. Get rid of antiquated counts and paper. The reason it isn't is scrutiny. If someone questions an election on paper ballots you can revisit the paper ballots. Electronic voting can never be re-examined can it?

I don't know. It should be possible for voting terminals to create output files showing registration numbers and votes cast.

Oh yes that is possible. But the problem is having a system that you can prove hasn't been tampered with. Quite a lot of money has been spent considering how you'd design it and as yet nobody has something that would provide the same level of scrutiny as paper ballots, which is obviously the measure.

[Hoboh]

It's even more direct than that. You have a landlord, say in Tower Hamlets (could be anywhere mind...) who, when, the electoral registration cards come around fill in the fact that Mo Ali and seventeen members of his family live there. Mo, who in fact is Ahmed, then goes and votes eighteen times.
And Prufrock thinks this is not a Thing. He also thinks that people screaming Cultural Appropriation is not a Thing, and that Trigger Warnings are not a Thing, and any other number of Things are not a Thing.

If you're claiming its a thing then show the evidence. All reviews and studies show an incredibly small number of instances of voter fraud.

The authorities took years to admit the child abuse scandals, going after certain ethnic groups and their 'cultures' will take years yet.

Actually just where are the hard left and labour screaming for their old band wagon, the abolition of the unelected second chamber?
They will have my whole hearted support on that policy. Second chamber should be elected in any true democracy.

[Hoboh]

Iranian politicians torch US flag in parliament and chant "Death to America" after Trump withdraws from nuclear pact

And they really wonder why the Yanks dislike and don't trust them?

[BWFC_Insane]

It's even more direct than that. You have a landlord, say in Tower Hamlets (could be anywhere mind...) who, when, the electoral registration cards come around fill in the fact that Mo Ali and seventeen members of his family live there. Mo, who in fact is Ahmed, then goes and votes eighteen times.
And Prufrock thinks this is not a Thing. He also thinks that people screaming Cultural Appropriation is not a Thing, and that Trigger Warnings are not a Thing, and any other number of Things are not a Thing.

If you're claiming its a thing then show the evidence. All reviews and studies show an incredibly small number of instances of voter fraud.

The authorities took years to admit the child abuse scandals, going after certain ethnic groups and their 'cultures' will take years yet.

Actually just where are the hard left and labour screaming for their old band wagon, the abolition of the unelected second chamber?
They will have my whole hearted support on that policy. Second chamber should be elected in any true democracy.

Independent studies haven't shown significant electoral fraud.......

It took years to uncover the child abuse scandals in the Catholic church too....not sure how that or anything else is related to electoral fraud. Which as I say has been examined extensively.

The left still are screaming for an elected second house, so again not sure what you're on about there. Funny how you suddenly want it when the Lords aren't suiting you.

The problem is, creating a system whereby the Lords is meaningful as a checkpoint, but not just a huge roadblock or an irrelevance. There needs to be a balance and hard to see how you achieve that in the current system.

The easy fix for ALL these issues is proportional representation to move us away from a polarised two party system.

[Prufrock]

I don't see the point of an elected second chamber myself.

I'd get rid of all hereditary peers, the Lords Spiritual, and I'd certainly mess with how their appointed but I quite like our system. Expert scrutiny improves legislation.

They don't vote on money bills, they don't vote down manifesto pledges, and even where they vote stuff down the elected chamber can override them. Feels *broadly* right to me.

[Prufrock]

Absolute nonsense. Double and triple voting isn't a thing. Everyone has a number, it gets checked off. It's possible people could lie and go back but there is no evidence it happens at a vaguely significant level at all. There have been give studies particularly in America where voter ID has been a hot topic for ages and voter impersonation just isn't a thing.

On the other hand, guess who is much less likely to own a passport, driving license or other form of ID...

You can't bring it in unless you bring in compulsory ID cards, and good luck with that.

You may recall your college days. I'm not trying to suggest double or triple voting was a big problem but it was possible for a student to register both at their parents home and digs away from home; hence double voting registration. There was no overall UK wide register to ensure that people could not vote in different constituencies.

The largest issue is postal voting fraud, particularly well represented in constituencies with high numbers of certain ethnic backgrounds.

Neither of which are issues solved by requiring ID.

Yep. I don't know v much about postal fraud but it seems on the face of it at least as being much more likely than voter impersonation. Even if that's the case, ID does nothing.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Last thing we need is a 2nd house of politicians making promises to get elected and ignoring them afterwards. Get rid of hereditary and spiritual as Pru says. I'd also see how we can remove any form of party representation or affiliation to make the 2nd house impartial. Might as well get rid of the Lords thing whilst we're at it. How about the peoples parliament or summat instead?

[BWFC_Insane]

Last thing we need is a 2nd house of politicians making promises to get elected and ignoring them afterwards. Get rid of hereditary and spiritual as Pru says. I'd also see how we can remove any form of party representation or affiliation to make the 2nd house impartial. Might as well get rid of the Lords thing whilst we're at it. How about the peoples parliament or summat instead?

This. Elected is a red-herring. Needs reform, but mirroring the HoC would be pointless. Independent expertise required not party appointments that have to fall into line or elected party mouthpieces.

[Montreal Wanderer]

I'd get rid of all hereditary peers, the Lords Spiritual, and I'd certainly mess with how their appointed but I quite like our system. Expert scrutiny improves legislation.

I am shocked, truly shocked, to see this coming from Pru.

[Hoboh]

Last thing we need is a 2nd house of politicians making promises to get elected and ignoring them afterwards. Get rid of hereditary and spiritual as Pru says. I'd also see how we can remove any form of party representation or affiliation to make the 2nd house impartial. Might as well get rid of the Lords thing whilst we're at it. How about the peoples parliament or summat instead?

This. Elected is a red-herring. Needs reform, but mirroring the HoC would be pointless. Independent expertise required not party appointments that have to fall into line or elected party mouthpieces.

No it is not, it is democratic, something Marxists don't know the meaning of. If you love PR have a second chamber made this way

Experts Pru? Baroness somebody famous for gardening or some Lord famous for sh*gging someone century's ago an expert, pleaseee. The only thing most politicians are experts at are fleecing the public purse, lying or self importance and that's the elected ones don't start on the crony's by appointment.

Oh and just a thought, I have always opposed the unelected second chamber in the same way I oppose the unelected EU commissioners.

[BWFC_Insane]

Last thing we need is a 2nd house of politicians making promises to get elected and ignoring them afterwards. Get rid of hereditary and spiritual as Pru says. I'd also see how we can remove any form of party representation or affiliation to make the 2nd house impartial. Might as well get rid of the Lords thing whilst we're at it. How about the peoples parliament or summat instead?

This. Elected is a red-herring. Needs reform, but mirroring the HoC would be pointless. Independent expertise required not party appointments that have to fall into line or elected party mouthpieces.

No it is not, it is democratic, something Marxists don't know the meaning of. If you love PR have a second chamber made this way

Experts Pru? Baroness somebody famous for gardening or some Lord famous for sh*gging someone century's ago an expert, pleaseee. The only thing most politicians are experts at are fleecing the public purse, lying or self importance and that's the elected ones don't start on the crony's by appointment.

Oh and just a thought, I have always opposed the unelected second chamber in the same way I oppose the unelected EU commissioners.

Does that not defeat the purpose of the 2nd chamber though?

[Hoboh]

Last thing we need is a 2nd house of politicians making promises to get elected and ignoring them afterwards. Get rid of hereditary and spiritual as Pru says. I'd also see how we can remove any form of party representation or affiliation to make the 2nd house impartial. Might as well get rid of the Lords thing whilst we're at it. How about the peoples parliament or summat instead?

This. Elected is a red-herring. Needs reform, but mirroring the HoC would be pointless. Independent expertise required not party appointments that have to fall into line or elected party mouthpieces.

No it is not, it is democratic, something Marxists don't know the meaning of. If you love PR have a second chamber made this way

Experts Pru? Baroness somebody famous for gardening or some Lord famous for sh*gging someone century's ago an expert, pleaseee. The only thing most politicians are experts at are fleecing the public purse, lying or self importance and that's the elected ones don't start on the crony's by appointment.

Oh and just a thought, I have always opposed the unelected second chamber in the same way I oppose the unelected EU commissioners.

Does that not defeat the purpose of the 2nd chamber though?

Why? To be honest I'd not oppose some form of PR in a first chamber as long as deadlocks were avoided some how.

I honestly believe in the power of the people to vote someone out without resorting to momentum thug tactics that damage the life of ordinary folk.

There have been people and governments I dislike elected and I work to overthrow them in the next election because I have a vote and can encourage others, that is the way it should be.

[BWFC_Insane]

Last thing we need is a 2nd house of politicians making promises to get elected and ignoring them afterwards. Get rid of hereditary and spiritual as Pru says. I'd also see how we can remove any form of party representation or affiliation to make the 2nd house impartial. Might as well get rid of the Lords thing whilst we're at it. How about the peoples parliament or summat instead?

This. Elected is a red-herring. Needs reform, but mirroring the HoC would be pointless. Independent expertise required not party appointments that have to fall into line or elected party mouthpieces.

No it is not, it is democratic, something Marxists don't know the meaning of. If you love PR have a second chamber made this way

Experts Pru? Baroness somebody famous for gardening or some Lord famous for sh*gging someone century's ago an expert, pleaseee. The only thing most politicians are experts at are fleecing the public purse, lying or self importance and that's the elected ones don't start on the crony's by appointment.

Oh and just a thought, I have always opposed the unelected second chamber in the same way I oppose the unelected EU commissioners.

Does that not defeat the purpose of the 2nd chamber though?

Why? To be honest I'd not oppose some form of PR in a first chamber as long as deadlocks were avoided some how.

I honestly believe in the power of the people to vote someone out without resorting to momentum thug tactics that damage the life of ordinary folk.

There have been people and governments I dislike elected and I work to overthrow them in the next election because I have a vote and can encourage others, that is the way it should be.

The second chamber is a checkpoint. Its powers have been drastically reduced, but still it is there to provide an "expert checkpoint" on legislation and bills going through parliament and challenge the government as appropriate.

Should you elect the HoL you have two broad options. Elect on party political lines or elect entirely independently and break any link to parties (formal or informal). The trouble with option 1 is you either end up with a HoL that mirrors the makeup of the government and hence isn't even a checkpoint or one that is the opposite and becomes a major roadblock as we see often in America.

Option 2 makes sense, but not sure where those people would be elected from and how anyone could make any rational decisions about it.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

It's even more direct than that. You have a landlord, say in Tower Hamlets (could be anywhere mind...) who, when, the electoral registration cards come around fill in the fact that Mo Ali and seventeen members of his family live there. Mo, who in fact is Ahmed, then goes and votes eighteen times.
And Prufrock thinks this is not a Thing. He also thinks that people screaming Cultural Appropriation is not a Thing, and that Trigger Warnings are not a Thing, and any other number of Things are not a Thing.

Key findings from cases of alleged electoral fraud in 2017
Headline figures from data on cases of alleged electoral fraud in 2017 are:

As of 31 January 2018, there has been one conviction which was in connection with an allegation of personation in polling stations.

Suspects in eight cases had accepted police cautions:

Four were in relation to registration offences
Two were personation when voting by post
One a false statement on a nomination form
One return of election expenses.

There are more instances of voter fraud in your hypothetical scenario than there were recorded instances in the last year.

Which just goes to show what an absolute fxcking joke it is. Voter fraud takes place on industrial scales everywhere, and we still pretend, because we're English, that it doesn't happen here. And you come out with the 'statistics' that prove we are better than North Korea in suppressing voter fraud! Doesn't that in itself make you feel like a bit of a tit? The fact that North Korea, with identity cards and a full on system of repression, acknowledges more voter fraud than we do????

And, once the fraud is committed, how the hell do you think this would get into the justice system with a Lack of Identity Cards?

[BWFC_Insane]

It's even more direct than that. You have a landlord, say in Tower Hamlets (could be anywhere mind...) who, when, the electoral registration cards come around fill in the fact that Mo Ali and seventeen members of his family live there. Mo, who in fact is Ahmed, then goes and votes eighteen times.
And Prufrock thinks this is not a Thing. He also thinks that people screaming Cultural Appropriation is not a Thing, and that Trigger Warnings are not a Thing, and any other number of Things are not a Thing.

Key findings from cases of alleged electoral fraud in 2017
Headline figures from data on cases of alleged electoral fraud in 2017 are:

As of 31 January 2018, there has been one conviction which was in connection with an allegation of personation in polling stations.

Suspects in eight cases had accepted police cautions:

Four were in relation to registration offences
Two were personation when voting by post
One a false statement on a nomination form
One return of election expenses.

There are more instances of voter fraud in your hypothetical scenario than there were recorded instances in the last year.

Which just goes to show what an absolute fxcking joke it is. Voter fraud takes place on industrial scales everywhere, and we still pretend, because we're English, that it doesn't happen here. And you come out with the 'statistics' that prove we are better than North Korea in suppressing voter fraud! Doesn't that in itself make you feel like a bit of a tit? The fact that North Korea, with identity cards and a full on system of repression, acknowledges more voter fraud than we do????

And, once the fraud is committed, how the hell do you think this would get into the justice system with a Lack of Identity Cards?

There is evidence it isn't. If you are going to state something like that, then show, some actual, evidence. Because otherwise it is meaningless.

Just flinging round statements with nothing to substantiate them.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

It's even more direct than that. You have a landlord, say in Tower Hamlets (could be anywhere mind...) who, when, the electoral registration cards come around fill in the fact that Mo Ali and seventeen members of his family live there. Mo, who in fact is Ahmed, then goes and votes eighteen times.
And Prufrock thinks this is not a Thing. He also thinks that people screaming Cultural Appropriation is not a Thing, and that Trigger Warnings are not a Thing, and any other number of Things are not a Thing.

Key findings from cases of alleged electoral fraud in 2017
Headline figures from data on cases of alleged electoral fraud in 2017 are:

As of 31 January 2018, there has been one conviction which was in connection with an allegation of personation in polling stations.

Suspects in eight cases had accepted police cautions:

Four were in relation to registration offences
Two were personation when voting by post
One a false statement on a nomination form
One return of election expenses.

There are more instances of voter fraud in your hypothetical scenario than there were recorded instances in the last year.

Which just goes to show what an absolute fxcking joke it is. Voter fraud takes place on industrial scales everywhere, and we still pretend, because we're English, that it doesn't happen here. And you come out with the 'statistics' that prove we are better than North Korea in suppressing voter fraud! Doesn't that in itself make you feel like a bit of a tit? The fact that North Korea, with identity cards and a full on system of repression, acknowledges more voter fraud than we do????

And, once the fraud is committed, how the hell do you think this would get into the justice system with a Lack of Identity Cards?

There is evidence it isn't. If you are going to state something like that, then show, some actual, evidence. Because otherwise it is meaningless.

Just flinging round statements with nothing to substantiate them.

Voter ID would make sure that your certainty that my certainty was Not a Thing into a certainty. That in itself is OK for me.
You, yourself, have given no evidence to contradict what I've said. Equally, you have no real substantive argument against ID cards, except 'statements you fling around'.

Oh, and by the way, just to mock your stupid statement that "There is evidence it isn't" here is a simple link to prove my assertion that "voter fraud takes place on industrial scales everywhere"... http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=https://e ... O-1DzMaq8f

[BWFC_Insane]

It's even more direct than that. You have a landlord, say in Tower Hamlets (could be anywhere mind...) who, when, the electoral registration cards come around fill in the fact that Mo Ali and seventeen members of his family live there. Mo, who in fact is Ahmed, then goes and votes eighteen times.
And Prufrock thinks this is not a Thing. He also thinks that people screaming Cultural Appropriation is not a Thing, and that Trigger Warnings are not a Thing, and any other number of Things are not a Thing.

Key findings from cases of alleged electoral fraud in 2017
Headline figures from data on cases of alleged electoral fraud in 2017 are:

As of 31 January 2018, there has been one conviction which was in connection with an allegation of personation in polling stations.

Suspects in eight cases had accepted police cautions:

Four were in relation to registration offences
Two were personation when voting by post
One a false statement on a nomination form
One return of election expenses.

There are more instances of voter fraud in your hypothetical scenario than there were recorded instances in the last year.

Which just goes to show what an absolute fxcking joke it is. Voter fraud takes place on industrial scales everywhere, and we still pretend, because we're English, that it doesn't happen here. And you come out with the 'statistics' that prove we are better than North Korea in suppressing voter fraud! Doesn't that in itself make you feel like a bit of a tit? The fact that North Korea, with identity cards and a full on system of repression, acknowledges more voter fraud than we do????

And, once the fraud is committed, how the hell do you think this would get into the justice system with a Lack of Identity Cards?

There is evidence it isn't. If you are going to state something like that, then show, some actual, evidence. Because otherwise it is meaningless.

Just flinging round statements with nothing to substantiate them.

Voter ID would make sure that your certainty that my certainty was Not a Thing into a certainty. That in itself is OK for me.
You, yourself, have given no evidence to contradict what I've said. Equally, you have no real substantive argument against ID cards, except 'statements you fling around'.

Oh, and by the way, just to mock your stupid statement that "There is evidence it isn't" here is a simple link to prove my assertion that "voter fraud takes place on industrial scales everywhere"... http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=https://e ... O-1DzMaq8f

The studies into recent elections show that you're talking about a few hundred votes at most being suspicious.

Voter ID does not make a certainty either. Nothing is an absolute certainty. Given your list talks about UK issues relating to postal votes, I'm not sure how voter ID would actually assist with that.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Saying Voter ID may not make it a certainty, is like saying that you don't support blood donation because not everybody survives who receives a transfusion.
And opponents of voter fraud always believe only a few hundred votes are at stake. Voter fraud is swept under the carpet.
And even the argument that it's only a few hundred is specious - a President was voted in on the back of less than a hundred 'hanging chads'.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

...Meanwhile, Labour shows it is becoming truly inept after the third officially selected candidate for election is hastily withdrawn in as many weeks:
Mandy Richards - official candidate for Worcester MP; dropped after it emerged she's a complete nutter and liability who is currently subject to 14 restraint orders.
Tara-Mary Lyons - official candidate for Welwyn-Hatfield MP; dropped because her companies owe thousands in unpaid tax (and this is the Labour party remember, not the Tories!).
And now Phyll Opoku-Gyimah; withdraws after being chosen as official Labour candidate for Lewisham East, supposedly due to "an unexpected family situation", which is shorthand bullshit PR to deflect the fact that the Guido Fawkes website was about to out her as yet another Labour Party pro-Palestinian Anti-Semite.