European Second Referendum

[BWFC_Insane]

I’m sure for example, those reliant on insulin will be delighted that malcd1 spoke to a few businesses...

Bullshit, bullshit, thrice bullshit.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... eal-brexit

That link exactly proves my point. We are reliant on importing insulin. A drug that cannot be stored for long periods. If we play customs hardball with the EU as malc1d suggested and block lorries going there and deliberately hold up customs, in some sort of ‘poker’ to prove a point...then you are risking the lives of those who rely on drugs that have not been stockpiled, such as insulin.

[TANGODANCER]

I’m sure for example, those reliant on insulin will be delighted that malcd1 spoke to a few businesses...

Bullshit, bullshit, thrice bullshit.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... eal-brexit

That link exactly proves my point. We are reliant on importing insulin. A drug that cannot be stored for long periods. If we play customs hardball with the EU as malc1d suggested and block lorries going there and deliberately hold up customs, in some sort of ‘poker’ to prove a point...then you are risking the lives of those who rely on drugs that have not been stockpiled, such as insulin.

Did you bother to read the rest of your link through? Not quite the panic situation you suggest? Seems like a golden opportunity for the insulinsuppliers to bang the price up, which can hardly be classed as caring about folk's lives at risk, but then again, we too must have market strengths elsewhere? Brexit won't rest on any single issue.

[Enoch]

I thought I was on ignore?

[BWFC_Insane]

I’m sure for example, those reliant on insulin will be delighted that malcd1 spoke to a few businesses...

Bullshit, bullshit, thrice bullshit.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... eal-brexit

That link exactly proves my point. We are reliant on importing insulin. A drug that cannot be stored for long periods. If we play customs hardball with the EU as malc1d suggested and block lorries going there and deliberately hold up customs, in some sort of ‘poker’ to prove a point...then you are risking the lives of those who rely on drugs that have not been stockpiled, such as insulin.

Did you bother to read the rest of your link through? Not quite the panic situation you suggest? Seems like a golden opportunity for the insulinsuppliers to bang the price up, which can hardly be classed as caring about folk's lives at risk, but then again, we too must have market strengths elsewhere? Brexit won't rest on any single issue.

Missing the point. With regards to Brexit there are different views on how it affects medicine supply.

However if we are deliberately delaying customs in a tit for tat phone customs war as a poster here suggested then that very much does have an impact. Without the need to gather opinion beyond the fact that we are reliant on supply from elsewhere.

Going back to a general Brexit for a minute, the fact there is a massive medicine stockpiling exercise currently taking place suggests the powers that be are far less confident generally. But what about the many medicines that cannot be stockpiled?

[TANGODANCER]

I’m sure for example, those reliant on insulin will be delighted that malcd1 spoke to a few businesses...

Bullshit, bullshit, thrice bullshit.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... eal-brexit

That link exactly proves my point. We are reliant on importing insulin. A drug that cannot be stored for long periods. If we play customs hardball with the EU as malc1d suggested and block lorries going there and deliberately hold up customs, in some sort of ‘poker’ to prove a point...then you are risking the lives of those who rely on drugs that have not been stockpiled, such as insulin.

Did you bother to read the rest of your link through? Not quite the panic situation you suggest? Seems like a golden opportunity for the insulinsuppliers to bang the price up, which can hardly be classed as caring about folk's lives at risk, but then again, we too must have market strengths elsewhere? Brexit won't rest on any single issue.

Missing the point. With regards to Brexit there are different views on how it affects medicine supply.

Of course...How silly of me....

[BWFC_Insane]

In her speech to factory workers later, the PM is expected to stress the importance of following through on the result of the referendum.

She will give the example of the Welsh devolution referendum in 1997, when people voted by a margin of 0.3% to create the Welsh Assembly, arguing: "That result was accepted by both sides and the popular legitimacy of that institution has never seriously been questioned."

But records show Mrs May did in fact herself vote against the establishment of the Welsh Assembly after that referendum - while the 2005 Conservative manifesto pledged to offer the Welsh people a "referendum on whether to keep the Assembly in its current form, increase its powers or abolish it".

Politics in 2019 in a nutshell. Guys, guys, guys, we have to respect referendums. Stop with your political meddling....but Mrs May, Mrs May what about the Welsh referendum result that you voted to overturn....yes exactly see - do as I say not as I do....

[Hoboh]

The Remainiac plot,
so, if I read this correctly the government would no longer be able to set the business of the house if these people had their way.
A dangerous precedent would then be set, why bother with a government? Why bother with elections what would be the point?
Anarchy would truly be arriving in the UK, Italian style politics would seem tame and I'm sure the Corbynista Marxists would love Parliament setting the agenda not them if they won an election.
The most dangerous threat to the UK is not Putin and Russia but the feeble minded remainers prepared to sell out because they are always fcuking right about everything!
There are hardly any coppers now (at least not many non-manipulated pc correct ones), the army moral is low, if ever there were conditions for another civil war they are gathering a pace driven by remainers, who would actually get their ass kicked if it happens because they'd all melt and have no stomach to stand alone.
Just shows the length these political te##or#sts are prepared to go to so they can impose their version of democracy.

[BWFC_Insane]

The Remainiac plot,
so, if I read this correctly the government would no longer be able to set the business of the house if these people had their way.
A dangerous precedent would then be set, why bother with a government? Why bother with elections what would be the point?
Anarchy would truly be arriving in the UK, Italian style politics would seem tame and I'm sure the Corbynista Marxists would love parliment setting the agenda not them if they won an election.
The most dangerous threat to the UK is not Putin and Russia but the feeble minded remainers prepared to sell out because they are always fcuking right about everything!
There are hardly any coppers now (at least not many non-manipulated pc correct ones), the army moral is low, if ever there were conditions for another civil war they are gathering a pace driven by remainers, who would actually get their ass kicked if it happens.
Just shows the length these political te##or#sts are prepared to go to so they can impose their version of democracy.

Wow. You wanted sovereignty. We have a minority government. Our parliament works by majority decision. Therefore a minority government that cannot pass its legislation through parliament will have to rely on parliament OR call a GE OR find something that can pass.

It isn't a hard concept to understand. This is democracy. May and her attempts to take power away from parliament is not. And you seem to be reading a lot into the right wing media nonsense. May's deal is likely to be voted down NOT by remainers in the main, but by Tory Brexiteers. The problem at that point is May and the government have to find a way to get something through parliament or go for no deal. But she could if she pushes no deal, lose her government in a no confidence vote. It is important to note that what you call a "plot" is from MPs planning to vote for May's deal. Hardly "remainiacs" as you call them. Perspective is important here.

Its not straight forward but this is democracy and this is "our sovereignty" that you supposedly want to preserve. One ought to remember that MPs are elected on the basis of them "doing what they believe is in our best interests". That is up to them to make that judgement.

You don't seem to accept that the government and a lot of MPs genuinely believe a "no deal" exit is disastrous. You and others may disagree but IF they genuinely believe that, then should they protect us from it? It isn't even a choice. Irrespective of the referendum. It is absolutely what they are elected to do. And the language you and the right wing press use isn't helpful. If the majority of MPs believe no deal is ok, then we may well end up with it. But if they don't then there is a chance we won't.

[Hoboh]

The Remainiac plot,
so, if I read this correctly the government would no longer be able to set the business of the house if these people had their way.
A dangerous precedent would then be set, why bother with a government? Why bother with elections what would be the point?
Anarchy would truly be arriving in the UK, Italian style politics would seem tame and I'm sure the Corbynista Marxists would love parliment setting the agenda not them if they won an election.
The most dangerous threat to the UK is not Putin and Russia but the feeble minded remainers prepared to sell out because they are always fcuking right about everything!
There are hardly any coppers now (at least not many non-manipulated pc correct ones), the army moral is low, if ever there were conditions for another civil war they are gathering a pace driven by remainers, who would actually get their ass kicked if it happens.
Just shows the length these political te##or#sts are prepared to go to so they can impose their version of democracy.

Wow. You wanted sovereignty. We have a minority government. Our parliament works by majority decision. Therefore a minority government that cannot pass its legislation through parliament will have to rely on parliament OR call a GE OR find something that can pass.

It isn't a hard concept to understand. This is democracy. May and her attempts to take power away from parliament is not. And you seem to be reading a lot into the right wing media nonsense. May's deal is likely to be voted down NOT by remainers in the main, but by Tory Brexiteers. The problem at that point is May and the government have to find a way to get something through parliament or go for no deal. But she could if she pushes no deal, lose her government in a no confidence vote. It is important to note that what you call a "plot" is from MPs planning to vote for May's deal. Hardly "remainiacs" as you call them. Perspective is important here.

Its not straight forward but this is democracy and this is "our sovereignty" that you supposedly want to preserve. One ought to remember that MPs are elected on the basis of them "doing what they believe is in our best interests". That is up to them to make that judgement.

You don't seem to accept that the government and a lot of MPs genuinely believe a "no deal" exit is disastrous. You and others may disagree but IF they genuinely believe that, then should they protect us from it? It isn't even a choice. Irrespective of the referendum. It is absolutely what they are elected to do. And the language you and the right wing press use isn't helpful. If the majority of MPs believe no deal is ok, then we may well end up with it. But if they don't then there is a chance we won't.

That is not democracy nor why people vote for MP's and you know it!

Which bit do you fail to understand? of course most who want Brexit don't back Mays plan because it is not Brexit, we pay follow rules and have that bloody back stop dreamt up and supported by that little mouthy Paddy,
Our democracy has always existed on the elected government governing, not back benches, again you know that but it suits your snowflake agenda!

[Prufrock]

There's been a constitutional battle for decades over the power of government v parliament (and arguably one that is necessarily built into any true democracy). We're a parliamentary democracy and Parliament is sovereign and supreme, but the govt runs the country and has to get things done. There's also the point that in normal times the govt by definition has a majority and so essentially can do whatever it wants (almost) regardless of the will of Parliament. The idea that the govt has too much power is not a new one (Thatcher's Lord Chancellor Lord Halisham popularised the phrase "elective dictatorship" - we vote in a govt and it can basically do what it wants until the next election). It's incredibly difficult to get a bill passed if you aren't the govt. You only have to look at the almost universally supported bills that have been shot down by that bell-end Christopher Chope and the other one (Davies?).

So more power to Parliament and less to the govt is arguably good and constitutionally proper (and v in line with the sovereignty line of Leave support). I can see how Leavers might suspect the convenient motives of those now arguing for it, though!

[BWFC_Insane]

The Remainiac plot,
so, if I read this correctly the government would no longer be able to set the business of the house if these people had their way.
A dangerous precedent would then be set, why bother with a government? Why bother with elections what would be the point?
Anarchy would truly be arriving in the UK, Italian style politics would seem tame and I'm sure the Corbynista Marxists would love parliment setting the agenda not them if they won an election.
The most dangerous threat to the UK is not Putin and Russia but the feeble minded remainers prepared to sell out because they are always fcuking right about everything!
There are hardly any coppers now (at least not many non-manipulated pc correct ones), the army moral is low, if ever there were conditions for another civil war they are gathering a pace driven by remainers, who would actually get their ass kicked if it happens.
Just shows the length these political te##or#sts are prepared to go to so they can impose their version of democracy.

Wow. You wanted sovereignty. We have a minority government. Our parliament works by majority decision. Therefore a minority government that cannot pass its legislation through parliament will have to rely on parliament OR call a GE OR find something that can pass.

It isn't a hard concept to understand. This is democracy. May and her attempts to take power away from parliament is not. And you seem to be reading a lot into the right wing media nonsense. May's deal is likely to be voted down NOT by remainers in the main, but by Tory Brexiteers. The problem at that point is May and the government have to find a way to get something through parliament or go for no deal. But she could if she pushes no deal, lose her government in a no confidence vote. It is important to note that what you call a "plot" is from MPs planning to vote for May's deal. Hardly "remainiacs" as you call them. Perspective is important here.

Its not straight forward but this is democracy and this is "our sovereignty" that you supposedly want to preserve. One ought to remember that MPs are elected on the basis of them "doing what they believe is in our best interests". That is up to them to make that judgement.

You don't seem to accept that the government and a lot of MPs genuinely believe a "no deal" exit is disastrous. You and others may disagree but IF they genuinely believe that, then should they protect us from it? It isn't even a choice. Irrespective of the referendum. It is absolutely what they are elected to do. And the language you and the right wing press use isn't helpful. If the majority of MPs believe no deal is ok, then we may well end up with it. But if they don't then there is a chance we won't.

That is not democracy nor why people vote for MP's and you know it!

Which bit do you fail to understand? of course most who want Brexit don't back Mays plan because it is not Brexit, we pay follow rules and have that bloody back stop dreamt up and supported by that little mouthy Paddy,
Our democracy has always existed on the elected government governing, not back benches, again you know that but it suits your snowflake agenda!

What? You seem confused by minority government. And the fact that MPs are elected to do what they deem is right, not necessarily what they think their constituents "want". It is an important distinction.

There are many examples in history where parliament has voted against the government of the day. It is what our system is.

We do not have a system where a government necessarily gets carte blanche to do what it likes. Whether you accept that or not is neither here nor there. It is the case.

If May had worked cross-party to secure support for a deal we'd not be in this mess. But she didn't and therefore, we are. Nobody to blame but her.

At the end of the day we had an advisory, not a binding referendum. The result of the referendum, exiting the EU will almost certainly be enacted. If you don't like how it has been enacted then you can have your say at a future GE and vote against those in government who have enacted it. That is literally how our democracy works.

[TANGODANCER]

^^

How come you're not Prime Minister, Insaney? ...or at least an M.P....I mean, to quote your own examples, are you advocating what is right over what you personally want...and how do you know what is right when Parliament and the P.M don't ?

[Enoch]

Or King of the World.

[BWFC_Insane]

^^

How come you're not Prime Minister, Insaney? ...or at least an M.P....I mean, to quote your own examples, are you advocating what is right over what you personally want...and how do you know what is right when Parliament and the P.M don't ?

I don't really understand that. They know what is "right" in their opinion.

The trouble being that the PM hasn't seemingly secured parliamentary support for he deal. The deal she thinks, or claims to think, is right. Now she could have perhaps done better if she'd worked cross-party (even across her own party) to negotiate with the EU, rather than going off with her own civil servant advisor and doing a deal that even her two Brexit secretary's resigned over....

One thing that we do spectacularly badly in this country compared to a lot of European states is government by coalition, negotiation and consensus. We allow our partisan system to dictate everything. And what we're seeing now is the result of that system not being fit for purpose when issues like this divide it, especially when there is no overall majority.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Or King of the World.

I think he's mistakenly put you on ignore instead of me,

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I’m sure for example, those reliant on insulin will be delighted that malcd1 spoke to a few businesses...

Bullshit, bullshit, thrice bullshit.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... eal-brexit

That link exactly proves my point. We are reliant on importing insulin. A drug that cannot be stored for long periods. If we play customs hardball with the EU as malc1d suggested and block lorries going there and deliberately hold up customs, in some sort of ‘poker’ to prove a point...then you are risking the lives of those who rely on drugs that have not been stockpiled, such as insulin.

You've got it totally arse over tit. The point is to play hard ball IF THEY DO. By that stage THEY would have blocked insulin imports.
As I've said before, and I'll repeat it again..."Logic goes completely over your head".

[BWFC_Insane]

I’m sure for example, those reliant on insulin will be delighted that malcd1 spoke to a few businesses...

Bullshit, bullshit, thrice bullshit.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... eal-brexit

That link exactly proves my point. We are reliant on importing insulin. A drug that cannot be stored for long periods. If we play customs hardball with the EU as malc1d suggested and block lorries going there and deliberately hold up customs, in some sort of ‘poker’ to prove a point...then you are risking the lives of those who rely on drugs that have not been stockpiled, such as insulin.

You've got it totally arse over tit. The point is to play hard ball IF THEY DO. By that stage THEY would have blocked insulin imports.
As I've said before, and I'll repeat it again..."Logic goes completely over your head".

We shouldn't be putting ourselves into that sort of position in the first place.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

One thing that we do spectacularly badly in this country compared to a lot of European states is government by coalition, negotiation and consensus. We allow our partisan system to dictate everything. And what we're seeing now is the result of that system not being fit for purpose when issues like this divide it, especially when there is no overall majority.

Do you know who holds the record for a Sovereign Parliament in legislative deadlock? Belgium (capital, Brussels) - 589 days when they couldn't even agree who should be in Parliament, never mind in government.

(Technical note: now overtaken by the Northern Irish Assembly {which isn't a Sovereign Parliament}).

Do you know who holds the record for the most days without legislature whilst holding a legitimate parliament and government?

No? Italy, 467 days.
Do you know who holds the record for the number of parliaments in a decade?...

Do I need to go on??? In your case, probably yes, but I really can't be arsed...

[BWFC_Insane]

One thing that we do spectacularly badly in this country compared to a lot of European states is government by coalition, negotiation and consensus. We allow our partisan system to dictate everything. And what we're seeing now is the re sult of that system not being fit for purpose when issues like this divide it, especially when there is no overall majority.

Do you know who holds the record for a Sovereign Parliament in legislative deadlock? Belgium (capital, Brussels) - 589 days when they couldn't even agree who should be in Parliament, never mind in government.

(Technical note: now overtaken by the Northern Irish Assembly {which isn't a Sovereign Parliament}).

Do you know who holds the record for the most days without legislature whilst holding a legitimate parliament and government?

No? Italy, 467 days.
Do you know who holds the record for the number of parliaments in a decade?...

Do I need to go on??? In your case, probably yes, but I really can't be arsed...

You can find bad examples of any system.

I suggest if you seriously want to discuss this you familiarise yourself with the work of Lijphart who has spent most of his adult life studying these systems.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

One thing that we do spectacularly badly in this country compared to a lot of European states is government by coalition, negotiation and consensus. We allow our partisan system to dictate everything. And what we're seeing now is the re sult of that system not being fit for purpose when issues like this divide it, especially when there is no overall majority.

Do you know who holds the record for a Sovereign Parliament in legislative deadlock? Belgium (capital, Brussels) - 589 days when they couldn't even agree who should be in Parliament, never mind in government.

(Technical note: now overtaken by the Northern Irish Assembly {which isn't a Sovereign Parliament}).

Do you know who holds the record for the most days without legislature whilst holding a legitimate parliament and government?

No? Italy, 467 days.
Do you know who holds the record for the number of parliaments in a decade?...

Do I need to go on??? In your case, probably yes, but I really can't be arsed...

You can find bad examples of any system.

I suggest if you seriously want to discuss this you familiarise yourself with the work of Lijphart who has spent most of his adult life studying these systems.

If I seriously want to discuss this?
You seriously implying that Lijphart says that Belgium, his own country, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Austria, etc have a more stable system of government than the UK because we don't have coalition, negotiation and consensus and they do???