Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:37 pm

Absolutely no reason why she should be here now... Fxck off back to daddy in north-eastrrn Bangladesh.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47508468
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Hoboh » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:55 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:37 pm
Absolutely no reason why she should be here now... Fxck off back to daddy in north-eastrrn Bangladesh.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47508468
But, But, but well according to J'Abbott anyway we should all hang our heads in shame, it's all our fault.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:24 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:55 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:37 pm
Absolutely no reason why she should be here now... Fxck off back to daddy in north-eastrrn Bangladesh.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47508468
But, But, but well according to J'Abbott anyway we should all hang our heads in shame, it's all our fault.
One of the biggest factors in this fiasco is a case of "too many cooks" etc. Too much publicity, too much media involvement and too much public opinion/hysteria without knowing any of the facts beyond what the papers and T.V moguls tell us. I mean, everyone of us is an expert fair-minded intellectual, well informed on international law, justice and world religion are we not? .( (Apropos of not much....There are more Jedi Knights ( about 7000) than Jews in the north east of England..and some 5000 Rastafarian worshippers of Haili Sellassi in England and Wales.says a recent survey.., proving little except our one-ness in all things)


The basic facts tell us ,at the bottom of it all, a young girl leaves/elopes this country by choice with two friends (old enough to handle air travel across international borders, passport control and finance but not apparently savvy enough to know what they are at?) to be a jihadi freedom fighter, rejecting all our laws, rule and standards ( which at times do border on the lunatic level regarding human rights etc. ) in favour of marrying and raising children in an environ of hate and murder/manslaughter, guns bombs and religious lunacy. We should be taken to task for that? In the most impartial manner possible, the whole thing is utterly beyond ridiculous. That may well be a fair description as to what Britain has finally become in the year 2019 .

Let the authorities handle it, that's what they're paid for is it not?
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:32 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:24 pm
Hoboh wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:55 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:37 pm
Absolutely no reason why she should be here now... Fxck off back to daddy in north-eastrrn Bangladesh.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47508468
But, But, but well according to J'Abbott anyway we should all hang our heads in shame, it's all our fault.
One of the biggest factors in this fiasco is a case of "too many cooks" etc. Too much publicity, too much media involvement and too much public opinion/hysteria without knowing any of the facts beyond what the papers and T.V moguls tell us. I mean, everyone of us is an expert fair-minded intellectual, well informed on international law, justice and world religion are we not? .( (Apropos of not much....There are more Jedi Knights ( about 7000) than Jews in the north east of England..and some 5000 Rastafarian worshippers of Haili Sellassi in England and Wales.says a recent survey.., proving little except our one-ness in all things)


The basic facts tell us ,at the bottom of it all, a young girl leaves/elopes this country by choice with two friends (old enough to handle air travel across international borders, passport control and finance but not apparently savvy enough to know what they are at?) to be a jihadi freedom fighter, rejecting all our laws, rule and standards ( which at times do border on the lunatic level regarding human rights etc. ) in favour of marrying and raising children in an environ of hate and murder/manslaughter, guns bombs and religious lunacy. We should be taken to task for that? In the most impartial manner possible, the whole thing is utterly beyond ridiculous. That may well be a fair description as to what Britain has finally become in the year 2019 .

Let the authorities handle it, that's what they're paid for is it not?
Who are these authorities of whom you speak?

And let us explore this concept of child: in one culture, someone who is 15 cannot, legally, vote, buy alcohol, and have sex. In another culture they can be married and bear their own children.
So when a child/adult fxcks off, sticking two fingers up at one culture, while being encouraged by the other culture, manages to get into deep shit, drops three children, then becomes an adult in both cultures' opinion, why are we talking about her as a child????
She's a fxcking adult, literally! She's made her own bed, and she can lie in it, literally!!!
That's not a leopard!
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by jimbo » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:04 pm

Tango - I think this is something that should be debated openly as it is a highly complex issue and also raises some important issues beyond the simple facts of the case itself.

She was 15 when she left, and by definition a child. She was obviously influenced by someone to arrive at her beliefs, which opens the issue of grooming. There’s an argument to say she was a victim long before she set off for Syria. That happened in the UK, on our watch and involved a failure in our systems to safeguard. Should we be taken to task for that? Well, whatever your opinion on her, surely that’s something that needs to be acknowledged and looked into to try and prevent similar in the future?

Given the severity of what she’s ultimately done (arguably treasonous) and her lack of remorse I understand some people will want the harshest punishment possible and will feel that she should always have the accountability for her actions. I however feel that should be decided in a court of law, not by Sajid Javed. I think once we revoke one persons right to a trial before punishment, we start on a slippery slope. I know you mention human rights bordering on the ‘lunatic’, but I just don’t think a government can pick and choose who to apply them to. I believe human rights to be absolute principles.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:59 pm

jimbo wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:04 pm
I know you mention human rights bordering on the ‘lunatic’, but I just don’t think a government can pick and choose who to apply them to. I believe human rights to be absolute principles.
As in the terrorist who just appealed against solitary confinement for such rights despite threatening his guards with attrocities? (Last couple of days or so). I believe in the law, but also common sense application of it.
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by jimbo » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:13 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:59 pm
jimbo wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:04 pm
I know you mention human rights bordering on the ‘lunatic’, but I just don’t think a government can pick and choose who to apply them to. I believe human rights to be absolute principles.
As in the terrorist who just appealed against solitary confinement for such rights despite threatening his guards with attrocities? (Last couple of days or so). I believe in the law, but also common sense application of it.
I don’t know the ins and outs of the case, but I believe in his right to have his case heard by appeal if that is a right open to others in his position. At that point if appropriate it can be declined or upheld. If we start picking and choosing who is eligible for basic human rights, we enter really sketchy territory.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:20 pm

jimbo wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:13 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:59 pm
jimbo wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:04 pm
I know you mention human rights bordering on the ‘lunatic’, but I just don’t think a government can pick and choose who to apply them to. I believe human rights to be absolute principles.
As in the terrorist who just appealed against solitary confinement for such rights despite threatening his guards with attrocities? (Last couple of days or so). I believe in the law, but also common sense application of it.
I don’t know the ins and outs of the case, but I believe in his right to have his case heard by appeal if that is a right open to others in his position. At that point if appropriate it can be declined or upheld. If we start picking and choosing who is eligible for basic human rights, we enter really sketchy territory.
As I said above, common sense application. The bloke broke the law, was found guilty and jailed. Whilst today's prisons aren't exactly The Bastille or Alcatraz, they aren't supposed to be Butlins either. The judge sentenced him to pay for his crimes, not re-write the law to suit himself and his comforts. .
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:31 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:20 pm
jimbo wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:13 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:59 pm
jimbo wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:04 pm
I know you mention human rights bordering on the ‘lunatic’, but I just don’t think a government can pick and choose who to apply them to. I believe human rights to be absolute principles.
As in the terrorist who just appealed against solitary confinement for such rights despite threatening his guards with attrocities? (Last couple of days or so). I believe in the law, but also common sense application of it.
I don’t know the ins and outs of the case, but I believe in his right to have his case heard by appeal if that is a right open to others in his position. At that point if appropriate it can be declined or upheld. If we start picking and choosing who is eligible for basic human rights, we enter really sketchy territory.
As I said above, common sense application. The bloke broke the law, was found guilty and jailed. Whilst today's prisons aren't exactly The Bastille or Alcatraz, they aren't supposed to be Butlins either. The judge sentenced him to pay for his crimes, not re-write the law to suit himself and his comforts. .
Your common sense might be someone else's lunacy.....https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... l-measures

Which is why a basic principle of human rights being an absolute and applied evenly is necessary. Human rights aren't things we can just waive when we like and IF that is what we do, then ultimately we go down an incredibly slippery slope that I'm positive you don't want to travel down.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:47 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:31 pm


Your common sense might be someone else's lunacy.....https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... l-measures

Which is why a basic principle of human rights being an absolute and applied evenly is necessary. Human rights aren't things we can just waive when we like and IF that is what we do, then ultimately we go down an incredibly slippery slope that I'm positive you don't want to travel down.
A whole legion of ambulance chasing defence lawyers and the inmates of our numerous prisons might possibly disagree...?
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:52 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:31 pm


Your common sense might be someone else's lunacy.....https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... l-measures

Which is why a basic principle of human rights being an absolute and applied evenly is necessary. Human rights aren't things we can just waive when we like and IF that is what we do, then ultimately we go down an incredibly slippery slope that I'm positive you don't want to travel down.
A whole legion of ambulance chasing defence lawyers and the inmates of our numerous prisons might possibly disagree...?
They'd agree to forgo their human rights? Are you sure?

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:57 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:52 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:31 pm


Your common sense might be someone else's lunacy.....https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... l-measures

Which is why a basic principle of human rights being an absolute and applied evenly is necessary. Human rights aren't things we can just waive when we like and IF that is what we do, then ultimately we go down an incredibly slippery slope that I'm positive you don't want to travel down.
A whole legion of ambulance chasing defence lawyers and the inmates of our numerous prisons might possibly disagree...?
They'd agree to forgo their human rights? Are you sure?
I give up. :|
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:04 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:57 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:52 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:31 pm


Your common sense might be someone else's lunacy.....https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... l-measures

Which is why a basic principle of human rights being an absolute and applied evenly is necessary. Human rights aren't things we can just waive when we like and IF that is what we do, then ultimately we go down an incredibly slippery slope that I'm positive you don't want to travel down.
A whole legion of ambulance chasing defence lawyers and the inmates of our numerous prisons might possibly disagree...?
They'd agree to forgo their human rights? Are you sure?
I give up. :|
You said that prison inmates would disagree with my point that we can't just apply human rights when we like and pick and choose...I don't really see your logic there? Prison inmates would surely want their human rights protected?

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by jimbo » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:05 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:31 pm


Your common sense might be someone else's lunacy.....https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... l-measures

Which is why a basic principle of human rights being an absolute and applied evenly is necessary. Human rights aren't things we can just waive when we like and IF that is what we do, then ultimately we go down an incredibly slippery slope that I'm positive you don't want to travel down.
A whole legion of ambulance chasing defence lawyers and the inmates of our numerous prisons might possibly disagree...?
The discussion has moved a fair way from the original topic, but I do find it fascinating that adhering to human rights can be seen as controversial!

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by jimbo » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:07 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:04 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:57 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:52 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:31 pm


Your common sense might be someone else's lunacy.....https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... l-measures

Which is why a basic principle of human rights being an absolute and applied evenly is necessary. Human rights aren't things we can just waive when we like and IF that is what we do, then ultimately we go down an incredibly slippery slope that I'm positive you don't want to travel down.
A whole legion of ambulance chasing defence lawyers and the inmates of our numerous prisons might possibly disagree...?
They'd agree to forgo their human rights? Are you sure?
I give up. :|
You said that prison inmates would disagree with my point that we can't just apply human rights when we like and pick and choose...I don't really see your logic there? Prison inmates would surely want their human rights protected?
My reading of the point was that the criminals may have shown little regard for the human rights of the victims of their crimes? Apologies if I’ve read that wrong tango.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:08 pm

jimbo wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:05 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:31 pm


Your common sense might be someone else's lunacy.....https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... l-measures

Which is why a basic principle of human rights being an absolute and applied evenly is necessary. Human rights aren't things we can just waive when we like and IF that is what we do, then ultimately we go down an incredibly slippery slope that I'm positive you don't want to travel down.
A whole legion of ambulance chasing defence lawyers and the inmates of our numerous prisons might possibly disagree...?
The discussion has moved a fair way from the original topic, but I do find it fascinating that adhering to human rights can be seen as controversial!
Unfortunately it is a reflection of a society fed on a Daily Mail/Express/Sun/Torygraph diet and the self perpetuating nature of social media. People follow others they agree with and become giant echo chambers rarely exposed to real debate or discussion.

That is why such extreme views as "human rights aren't a good thing" have become legitimised in recent years.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:09 pm

jimbo wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:07 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:04 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:57 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:52 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:31 pm


Your common sense might be someone else's lunacy.....https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... l-measures

Which is why a basic principle of human rights being an absolute and applied evenly is necessary. Human rights aren't things we can just waive when we like and IF that is what we do, then ultimately we go down an incredibly slippery slope that I'm positive you don't want to travel down.
A whole legion of ambulance chasing defence lawyers and the inmates of our numerous prisons might possibly disagree...?
They'd agree to forgo their human rights? Are you sure?
I give up. :|
You said that prison inmates would disagree with my point that we can't just apply human rights when we like and pick and choose...I don't really see your logic there? Prison inmates would surely want their human rights protected?
My reading of the point was that the criminals may have shown little regard for the human rights of the victims of their crimes? Apologies if I’ve read that wrong tango.
If so then the very fact they are in prison is because they violated someone's human rights. That is the corrective/disciplinary action. But that does not take away their own basic human rights.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:13 pm

jimbo wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:05 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:47 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:31 pm


Your common sense might be someone else's lunacy.....https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... l-measures

Which is why a basic principle of human rights being an absolute and applied evenly is necessary. Human rights aren't things we can just waive when we like and IF that is what we do, then ultimately we go down an incredibly slippery slope that I'm positive you don't want to travel down.
A whole legion of ambulance chasing defence lawyers and the inmates of our numerous prisons might possibly disagree...?
The discussion has moved a fair way from the original topic, but I do find it fascinating that adhering to human rights can be seen as controversial!
I can't argue with someone who can't tell the difference between "waive" and "Interpret". For a supposed intellectual you do more twisting then Chubby Checker. As I said, I give up, surrender, wave ( note the spelling) the flag....whatever it takes.
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Montreal Wanderer » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:06 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:31 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:20 pm
jimbo wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:13 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:59 pm
jimbo wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:04 pm
I know you mention human rights bordering on the ‘lunatic’, but I just don’t think a government can pick and choose who to apply them to. I believe human rights to be absolute principles.
As in the terrorist who just appealed against solitary confinement for such rights despite threatening his guards with attrocities? (Last couple of days or so). I believe in the law, but also common sense application of it.
I don’t know the ins and outs of the case, but I believe in his right to have his case heard by appeal if that is a right open to others in his position. At that point if appropriate it can be declined or upheld. If we start picking and choosing who is eligible for basic human rights, we enter really sketchy territory.
As I said above, common sense application. The bloke broke the law, was found guilty and jailed. Whilst today's prisons aren't exactly The Bastille or Alcatraz, they aren't supposed to be Butlins either. The judge sentenced him to pay for his crimes, not re-write the law to suit himself and his comforts. .
Your common sense might be someone else's lunacy.....https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... l-measures

Which is why a basic principle of human rights being an absolute and applied evenly is necessary. Human rights aren't things we can just waive when we like and IF that is what we do, then ultimately we go down an incredibly slippery slope that I'm positive you don't want to travel down.
I know less than Jimbo about the case (i.e. nothing). However, as I understand it, a prisoner attacked a guard and was handed a term in solitary confinement. He claims solitary is a violation of his human rights. So the question has nothing to do with the terrorist or this case but rather whether solitary confinement is cruel and unusual punishment for a violent or disorderly prisoner, and thus a violation of his human rights. I believe that solitary confinement has been used in prisons for a considerable time and I have never heard that it has been judged as a violation of human rights assuming it is for a limited term as punishment. If the guards had got together and beaten the crap out of him that would be a different question.
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Re: Boiled eggs and Caliphate soldiers.

Post by Hoboh » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:12 pm

If you are tried, convicted then sentenced, your human rights should be limited to the very basics because plainly you have chosen to bugger up someone else's rights and dispensed with any of your responsibilities.

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