The Politics Thread

[TANGODANCER]

The next thing being banged on about is the low turnout
Well if anybody thinks fanatically pro Remain didn't vote they need their heads testing, it was for the Europarliament after all. Leavers who aren't No-dealers were most likely not to vote.

It might be asked why it should be anything else when, after the go/stay vote being more or less ignored by Parliament as "will of the people" proved such a waste of time. Voting for anything government related is about as much use as asking "who's you favourite character in a Punch and Judy show" , but nowhere near as sensible.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The next thing being banged on about is the low turnout
Well if anybody thinks fanatically pro Remain didn't vote they need their heads testing, it was for the Europarliament after all. Leavers who aren't No-dealers were most likely not to vote.

It might be asked why it should be anything else when, after the go/stay vote being more or less ignored by Parliament as "will of the people" proved such a waste of time. Voting for anything government related is about as much use as asking "who's you favourite character in a Punch and Judy show" , but nowhere near as sensible.

Yup.

I 'love' (irony emoji unavailable) the spin with a People's Vote shite.
Like the Referendum was for animals, and the major winners (for a six week old party) weren't people either.

We voted Leave. Until we leave, politics in this country is poisoned, and the longer it goes on the more poisonous it will get.

[jimbo]

We know that 48% voted to remain as we were 3 years ago. Who knows what that number is now.

Last night we can assume about a third voted directly in favour of a no deal Brexit.
That leaves a good number of the leave vote unaccounted for - do they want a deal? Would they move to no deal at the end of the day if there was no deal they were happy with? Would they move back to remain in that case? We can’t say for certain.

On the evidence from the electorate I’d be really worried if we rattled into a no deal Brexit we’d be doing so based on the views of a minority. A no deal Brexit straight away may be what you want, but there’s no evidence there’s a majority among the public for it. A second referendum would remove that doubt and answer the above questions.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

We know that 48% voted to remain as we were 3 years ago. Who knows what that number is now.

Last night we can assume about a third voted directly in favour of a no deal Brexit.
That leaves a good number of the leave vote unaccounted for - do they want a deal? Would they move to no deal at the end of the day if there was no deal they were happy with? Would they move back to remain in that case? We can’t say for certain.

On the evidence from the electorate I’d be really worried if we rattled into a no deal Brexit we’d be doing so based on the views of a minority. A no deal Brexit straight away may be what you want, but there’s no evidence there’s a majority among the public for it. A second referendum would remove that doubt and answer the above questions.

There is no majority. For anything!
Which by the logic of some mean not doing what we've actually voted for. I don't understand that logic. That's dictatorship by the minority.

It's really hip to call for a second referendum. Fine. How about this question:
Should we leave the European Union - Yes or No tomorrow.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Also if 48% voted Remain three years ago. And this, now, was a vote on Euro institutions for which 100% of Remainers should have turned out, and for which a mere 36% of the electorate bothered to vote, that tells me that Remainers'now command 41% of 36% of the public!!!
That's less than impressive, especially as one in three of the electorate who could be arsed to vote in what was essentially a protest referendum specifically endorsed a NO DEAL Brexit.

People who search for a compromise on this don't get it. There isn't one. Leave or Remain, no compromise. Leave won the vote. We haven't fxcking left, and we haven't fxcking left because the cxnts in parliament don't agree with what the public voted for. And because you can't compromise on Leave or Remain, we remain, due to the duplicitous arseholes our democratic institutionalists have morphed into.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

It really is like Animal Farm. Only we've gone straight from Four legs 52%, Two legs 48%, to Two Legs Good Four Legs Bad. We didn't even transition through the four legs better phase.

[jimbo]

We know that 48% voted to remain as we were 3 years ago. Who knows what that number is now.

Last night we can assume about a third voted directly in favour of a no deal Brexit.
That leaves a good number of the leave vote unaccounted for - do they want a deal? Would they move to no deal at the end of the day if there was no deal they were happy with? Would they move back to remain in that case? We can’t say for certain.

On the evidence from the electorate I’d be really worried if we rattled into a no deal Brexit we’d be doing so based on the views of a minority. A no deal Brexit straight away may be what you want, but there’s no evidence there’s a majority among the public for it. A second referendum would remove that doubt and answer the above questions.

There is no majority. For anything!
Which by the logic of some mean not doing what we've actually voted for. I don't understand that logic. That's dictatorship by the minority.

It's really hip to call for a second referendum. Fine. How about this question:
Should we leave the European Union - Yes or No tomorrow.

Yeah but my minority is bigger than your minority

As for your question, I think the leave option would need some unambiguous qualifiers as to what the terms are. We’re in this mess at the moment as the two main parties claim to want to implement the original vote but can’t agree on what terms that should be. A more specific question would remove many of the arguments of the remain side and give the true will of the people.

I don’t know how a second vote would go. I don’t believe there’s huge swathes of people who have switched to remain as the last few years have generally just polarised people further. There’s not one political discussion programme at the moment that doesn’t just descend into shouting and argument. But, as you say, there’s no clear majority for anything at the moment which will make the acceptance of the result difficult for a lot of people, which a second vote may help to settle.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

...In fact who Are you?
I know Enoch lives in Kent and has walked miles after staying for a further round; Domingos is a young punk; Tangodancer has a wife, a dog and a radio to run when he's not tango dancing; Prufrock used to wear a pink dressing gown on a Paris balcony in the mornings drinking fruit juice; Hoboh and Putin have ridden on loud motorbikes to Matlock Bath just to piss me off; Crazy Horse caused Chernobyl; I even know that Jakerbeef is Oirish and Little Green Man is based north of the wall?
But you? Nothing, apart from you moan a lot.
Are you married, do you have children, are you gay? Where do you live, what's your job, how is the therapy progressing? (I'm merely asking to get a handle on where the fxck your head's at - you're like Theresa May of the Wanderers, inscrutably vacant with numerous red lines).

You may have to wait a while for the answer Spots. Our international man of mystery usually applies the debaters handbook method and answers any direct question with a question. Better have your history ready..

Actually Tango, he employs that tactic in full flow but usually he just ignores anything that's embarrassingly awkward for him. He's like a 70s Russian nuclear sub's crew, running on silent mode, wishing they were elsewhere, anywhere elsewhere.

[malcd1]

The referendum was a straight Leave or Remain. The EU elections is more political in that you vote for a party so you are not going to replicate or get a good indication of the result from a new In / Out referendum. By that I mean, how the feck has anyone voted for Conservatives or Labour in these EU elections. What do they stand for because I have no idea? May is a Remainer in a Brexit party and Corbyn in a Leaver in a predominantly Remain party (as far as the MP's are concerned anyway).

Lib Dems have been consistent in that they want to remain and have benefited in these EU elections (but probably won't in a General Election). Brexit UK have been consistent in that if they cannot get a good deal for the UK then we walk away with no deal. If you want to remain then you are deluding yourself if you voted Labour and if you want to leave then the current Conservatives leaders are not going to deliver that.

I personally think the Leavers were slightly more likely not to vote in these elections as the government have repeatedly failed to deliver the result of the referendum. I know a few who are completely disillusioned with politics in general. The entire thing is messed up with no solution in sight.

If a new referendum is now more likely, there has to be only two answers. I do not want an In / Out question as we have already decided that. Is it a May's Brexit or No Deal Brexit?

[jimbo]

Also if 48% voted Remain three years ago. And this, now, was a vote on Euro institutions for which 100% of Remainers should have turned out, and for which a mere 36% of the electorate bothered to vote, that tells me that Remainers'now command 41% of 36% of the public!!!
That's less than impressive, especially as one in three of the electorate who could be arsed to vote in what was essentially a protest referendum specifically endorsed a NO DEAL Brexit.

People who search for a compromise on this don't get it. There isn't one. Leave or Remain, no compromise. Leave won the vote. We haven't fxcking left, and we haven't fxcking left because the cxnts in parliament don't agree with what the public voted for. And because you can't compromise on Leave or Remain, we remain, due to the duplicitous arseholes our democratic institutionalists have morphed into.

That’s one understandable way to interpret the vote from last night. There’s also the argument that this was the big chance for Brexit supporters angry at the current lack of action to come out and show that, and Farage certainly did his best to mobilise them.

Different people, depending on where you are on the debate, will interpret this differently.

I’m of the opinion that last night showed there’s a significant chunk of the population who would be happy with a no deal, but not enough to justify just leaving tomorrow. Doing that when there’s similar support for remain parties and then the guessing game of what to do with red and blue votes, will just cause more unrest IMO. Over the course of a referendum campaign no deal support might swell to a majority, in which case, that’s democracy. A compromise deal might be agreed, or remain might win.

I don’t really see an easy way out though and worry that the divisions caused by all of this will take a long time to heal. Whichever way we end up will be blamed on future political issues.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

We know that 48% voted to remain as we were 3 years ago. Who knows what that number is now.

Last night we can assume about a third voted directly in favour of a no deal Brexit.
That leaves a good number of the leave vote unaccounted for - do they want a deal? Would they move to no deal at the end of the day if there was no deal they were happy with? Would they move back to remain in that case? We can’t say for certain.

On the evidence from the electorate I’d be really worried if we rattled into a no deal Brexit we’d be doing so based on the views of a minority. A no deal Brexit straight away may be what you want, but there’s no evidence there’s a majority among the public for it. A second referendum would remove that doubt and answer the above questions.

There is no majority. For anything!
Which by the logic of some mean not doing what we've actually voted for. I don't understand that logic. That's dictatorship by the minority.

It's really hip to call for a second referendum. Fine. How about this question:
Should we leave the European Union - Yes or No tomorrow.

Yeah but my minority is bigger than your minority

As for your question, I think the leave option would need some unambiguous qualifiers as to what the terms are. We’re in this mess at the moment as the two main parties claim to want to implement the original vote but can’t agree on what terms that should be. A more specific question would remove many of the arguments of the remain side and give the true will of the people.

I don’t know how a second vote would go. I don’t believe there’s huge swathes of people who have switched to remain as the last few years have generally just polarised people further. There’s not one political discussion programme at the moment that doesn’t just descend into shouting and argument. But, as you say, there’s no clear majority for anything at the moment which will make the acceptance of the result difficult for a lot of people, which a second vote may help to settle.

The problem with a second vote is twofold
1st how is ignoring the first vote justified. How can that legitimise a second vote. (For example, the SNP can, and probably will call for a second, third, fourth, and fifth referendum on Independence until they get their own way... But at least the winners of the first referendum, not being independent, got their own way before the resultant referenda took place ..)
2nd Who decides the actual question put to the 'People'.
There are many biased ways of overcoming the first referendum which was never implemented, one of which is to refer to May's deal, another of which is stick Remain back on the agenda.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

We know that 48% voted to remain as we were 3 years ago. Who knows what that number is now.

Last night we can assume about a third voted directly in favour of a no deal Brexit.
That leaves a good number of the leave vote unaccounted for - do they want a deal? Would they move to no deal at the end of the day if there was no deal they were happy with? Would they move back to remain in that case? We can’t say for certain.

On the evidence from the electorate I’d be really worried if we rattled into a no deal Brexit we’d be doing so based on the views of a minority. A no deal Brexit straight away may be what you want, but there’s no evidence there’s a majority among the public for it. A second referendum would remove that doubt and answer the above questions.

There is no majority. For anything!
Which by the logic of some mean not doing what we've actually voted for. I don't understand that logic. That's dictatorship by the minority.

It's really hip to call for a second referendum. Fine. How about this question:
Should we leave the European Union - Yes or No tomorrow.

Yeah but my minority is bigger than your minority

As for your question, I think the leave option would need some unambiguous qualifiers as to what the terms are. We’re in this mess at the moment as the two main parties claim to want to implement the original vote but can’t agree on what terms that should be. A more specific question would remove many of the arguments of the remain side and give the true will of the people.

I don’t know how a second vote would go. I don’t believe there’s huge swathes of people who have switched to remain as the last few years have generally just polarised people further. There’s not one political discussion programme at the moment that doesn’t just descend into shouting and argument. But, as you say, there’s no clear majority for anything at the moment which will make the acceptance of the result difficult for a lot of people, which a second vote may help to settle.

The problem with a second vote is twofold
1st how is ignoring the first vote justified. How can that legitimise a second vote. (For example, the SNP can, and probably will call for a second, third, fourth, and fifth referendum on Independence until they get their own way... But at least the winners of the first referendum, not being independent, got their own way before the resultant referenda took place ..)
2nd Who decides the actual question put to the 'People'.
There are many biased ways of overcoming the first referendum which was never implemented, one of which is to refer to May's deal, another of which is stick Remain back on the agenda.

For example:
Do you want A) May's Deal or B) Remain ...
Waaaaaaah, Neither I want to Leave...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I think the site is slow. Just posted and seen a previous Jimbo post which wasn't there before I posted. Apologies if I've mixed up the ongoing flow...

[TANGODANCER]

A question is surely begged that those who didn't/couldn't foresee the future of either decision when we first voted (like me) for what they thought, is unlikely to be educated by the "A Life of Theresa" show that just happened, and anyone who is any clearer on any of it should surely open a fortune telling enterprise. In short why should anyone change their mind because Parliament didn't agree with the people's vote? Will we have a best of three/five scenario?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Yeah but my minority is bigger than your minority

Impossible! My minority is award winning.

[TANGODANCER]

I think the site is slow. Just posted and seen a previous Jimbo post which wasn't there before I posted. Apologies if I've mixed up the ongoing flow...

Likewise, just done the same. Sorry Jimbo.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

A question is surely begged that those who didn't/couldn't foresee the future of either decision when we first voted (like me) for what they thought, is unlikely to be educated by the "A Life of Theresa" show that just happened, and anyone who is any clearer on any of it should surely open a fortune telling enterprise. In short why should anyone change their mind because Parliament didn't agree with the people's vote? Will we have a best of three/five scenario?

As I answered with Jimbo.
I don't deny things can change. I just demand that the original decision is carried out BEFORE we get the chance to change our collective minds.
We voted LEAVE. Let's leave before we have a (second) People's Vote.

[jimbo]

The Scottish referendum is another huge issue whether we decide on a second referendum or not. The UK government made a huge effort in explaining that a vote to remain in the Uk was the only way to remain in the EU. The fact that the UK government is then dragging them out of the EU despite the Scots voting strongly in favour of remaining surely gives them a valid argument to ask the independence question again.

If we go for a second EU ref, then of course they’ll be entitled to ask for another go.

[TANGODANCER]

As I answered with Jimbo.
I don't deny things can change. I just demand that the original decision is carried out BEFORE we get the chance to change our collective minds.
We voted LEAVE. Let's leave before we have a (second) People's Vote.

I live next door to a Liverpool supporting Atheist and he lives next door to a family of strong Catholics (they actually attend services) . On my other side I have a Polish couple and an Asian family. Everybody gets on well enough, so who should I ask for advice on voting..?

[Hoboh]

The Scottish referendum is another huge issue whether we decide on a second referendum or not. The UK government made a huge effort in explaining that a vote to remain in the Uk was the only way to remain in the EU. The fact that the UK government is then dragging them out of the EU despite the Scots voting strongly in favour of remaining surely gives them a valid argument to ask the independence question again.

If we go for a second EU ref, then of course they’ll be entitled to ask for another go.

I think the English should have a say in any breakup of the union, reckon that would almost guarantee addios Jimmy.