The Politics Thread

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The Scottish referendum is another huge issue whether we decide on a second referendum or not. The UK government made a huge effort in explaining that a vote to remain in the Uk was the only way to remain in the EU. The fact that the UK government is then dragging them out of the EU despite the Scots voting strongly in favour of remaining surely gives them a valid argument to ask the independence question again.

If we go for a second EU ref, then of course they’ll be entitled to ask for another go.

As I said. Honour the outcome of the first referendum (whether Scottish, which we did, or European, which we haven't) and then you can have as many referenda as you want... In, out, in, out, shake it all about...
The Scots voted No to independence. The result was honoured. We voted Leave, the vote has been dismissed.
When the Leave vote is actually carried through then of course the Scots can have another go .. just as we can two or three years AFTER we've left.

[Hoboh]

Let's be clear, from my point of view and where I stand, a deal for the original common market would suit fine with rules for trading within that area but we must be able to deal anywhere else we chose as well. I object most strongly to the political and judicial side and most of all the federalist creeps wishing to turn Europe into a United States.

[Harry Genshaw]

Since an agreement seems nigh on impossible and a 2nd referendum poses as many questions as answers, perhaps the status quo should apply. We continue as we are, i.e. remain in Europe until as such time there is an overwhelming groundswell for us to leave. Either by way of a 2nd referendum, or the election of a pro Brexit party

[TANGODANCER]

Since an agreement seems nigh on impossible and a 2nd referendum poses as many questions as answers, perhaps the status quo should apply. We continue as we are, i.e. remain in Europe until as such time there is an overwhelming groundswell for us to leave. Either by way of a 2nd referendum, or the election of a pro Brexit party

Perhaps the first referendum result should apply Harry, otherwise a lot of people have wasted a great deal of time (and untold amounts of the country's money) for absolutely nothing. Why did we bother?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Since an agreement seems nigh on impossible and a 2nd referendum poses as many questions as answers, perhaps the status quo should apply. We continue as we are, i.e. remain in Europe until as such time there is an overwhelming groundswell for us to leave. Either by way of a 2nd referendum, or the election of a pro Brexit party

Why don't we just honour the result of the first referendum before we move onwards?????????
Is that sooooooooooo fxcking difficult? I think not.

[Harry Genshaw]

Both fair questions but the fact remains, our elected representatives can't find or agree a way forward.

We SHOULD have left but haven't. Perhaps the fairest compromise is to stay as we are until there is overwhelming support for one direction or another? The referendum result was too close to just ride roughshod over almost half the populations wishes

[Prufrock]

That's interesting Harry (you voted leave, right?).

I've said before that this is a political problem rather than a constitutional one. Big constitutional changes like this should be difficult. Alex de Tocqueville was wrestling with these kind of issues 300 years ago.

These elections have shown there is a mandate for remain and for no deal, that Corbyn is dreadful and doing well, basically every group has argued they support whatever it was they already thought. To me they show a country still hugely divided.

I was joking in the pub over the weekend that I feel for anybody working in the modern sciences at university in 50 years time. Every essay is going to be about Brexit. Not just politics and economics. The sociology of Brexit, the anthropology, the psychology.

It's also an interesting study in hindsight. I saw someone on Twitter describe it, "there is one remain, but many Brexits". The idea there is a majority for any one Brexit idea is nonsense. In hindsight we wouldn't have triggered A50 without figuring out what we wanted. Without losing her majority TM wouldn't have needed the DUP and might have been able to get her deal through with a border in the Irish sea (or maybe not). In hindsight the referendum question might've been different.

I have sympathy for Remainers who make that "status quo" point, that the vote should've required a supermajority (as many countries do when changing their constitution). That was an argument for before the referendum though. The only way we can legitimately remain long term is by a second ref.

My personal reckon is that in 50 years time a United Ireland and independent Scotland will be in the EU and we'll have a light touch border in the Irish sea, in the channel and with Scotland. England and Wales will be outside but basically on the terms of TM's deal.

Can't see how that won't happen smoothly .

[Harry Genshaw]

I did vote leave but only after being undecided right up until voting day. It's the hardcore at either ends that we as a country need to bring on side. Insane and his ilk will never accept leave. Farage and right wing Tories aren't going to give up their 'victory' & accept remain.

I just don't see a way out/forward

[malcd1]

I did vote leave but only after being undecided right up until voting day. It's the hardcore at either ends that we as a country need to bring on side. Insane and his ilk will never accept leave. Farage and right wing Tories aren't going to give up their 'victory' & accept remain.

I just don't see a way out/forward

One side is going to be very angry about the outcome. There is no middle ground as Theresa May has found out.

[TANGODANCER]

My personal reckon is that in 50 years time a United Ireland and independent Scotland will be in the EU and we'll have a light touch border in the Irish sea, in the channel and with Scotland. England and Wales will be outside but basically on the terms of TM's deal.
Can't see how that won't happen smoothly .

Tis but an opinion as none of us (except perhaps Insaney) can foretell the future, but a United Ireland I cannot see ever now, indeed your fifty years time may well be right as the soonest time change may happen. Too much Brit influence in the north and Home Rule, long the main bone of contention within Ireland,is ever a pipe dream with the sectarian monster ever present. The Irish Constitution guarantees freedom of religion but over 80% are Catholic with an element of "No Religion" involved and then there's a growing immigration bringing in Hindu and Muslim elements.
Ireland, to say the very least is complex. Michael Collins, once a hero of the republic, said that he had given the country something it wanted for 300 years in signing a peace treaty, and, in doing so signed his own death warrant. A very short time later, he was assassinated. Complex doesn't go near it. My father was an Irishman and you couldn't even get him to talk about its politics.

[BWFC_Insane]

I did vote leave but only after being undecided right up until voting day. It's the hardcore at either ends that we as a country need to bring on side. Insane and his ilk will never accept leave. Farage and right wing Tories aren't going to give up their 'victory' & accept remain.

I just don't see a way out/forward

What I will or won't accept is neither here nor there. I don't believe leaving is the "best" thing for the country. I think all forms of leave are a bad choice.

I can live with a sensible deal that protects the economy as far as possible whilst honoring the result of the referendum. I think it would be worse than remaining but a deal that offers regulatory alignment on goods (some form of customs union/arrangement/partnership whatever you want to call it) and some sort of negotiated market access for goods and services. I could live with. I would see that as a sensible compromise to get us forward. I still wouldn't think it was the best option - but what I think doesn't matter.

However we're now in revisionist times where Brexit apparently means leaving without a deal. Inspite of the leave campaign spending loads of time telling us there was no way we'd not leave with a deal. And so the truth has been distorted so that the only true Brexit is a no deal exit. And in my view that requires a new mandate. Because as much as people will lie and say that's what they always voted for, the majority, IMO did not. And if the consequences are as bad as they could be then there will need to be accountability.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I did vote leave but only after being undecided right up until voting day. It's the hardcore at either ends that we as a country need to bring on side. Insane and his ilk will never accept leave. Farage and right wing Tories aren't going to give up their 'victory' & accept remain.

I just don't see a way out/forward

What I will or won't accept is neither here nor there. I don't believe leaving is the "best" thing for the country. I think all forms of leave are a bad choice.

I can live with a sensible deal that protects the economy as far as possible whilst honoring the result of the referendum. I think it would be worse than remaining but a deal that offers regulatory alignment on goods (some form of customs union/arrangement/partnership whatever you want to call it) and some sort of negotiated market access for goods and services. I could live with. I would see that as a sensible compromise to get us forward. I still wouldn't think it was the best option - but what I think doesn't matter.

However we're now in revisionist times where Brexit apparently means leaving without a deal. Inspite of the leave campaign spending loads of time telling us there was no way we'd not leave with a deal. And so the truth has been distorted so that the only true Brexit is a no deal exit. And in my view that requires a new mandate. Because as much as people will lie and say that's what they always voted for, the majority, IMO did not. And if the consequences are as bad as they could be then there will need to be accountability.

Jeezus Christ...
You only have to look back at the posts Hoboh and I have on this site to see what a pile o'bollocks you talk.

...(whoever you are).

[BWFC_Insane]

I did vote leave but only after being undecided right up until voting day. It's the hardcore at either ends that we as a country need to bring on side. Insane and his ilk will never accept leave. Farage and right wing Tories aren't going to give up their 'victory' & accept remain.

I just don't see a way out/forward

What I will or won't accept is neither here nor there. I don't believe leaving is the "best" thing for the country. I think all forms of leave are a bad choice.

I can live with a sensible deal that protects the economy as far as possible whilst honoring the result of the referendum. I think it would be worse than remaining but a deal that offers regulatory alignment on goods (some form of customs union/arrangement/partnership whatever you want to call it) and some sort of negotiated market access for goods and services. I could live with. I would see that as a sensible compromise to get us forward. I still wouldn't think it was the best option - but what I think doesn't matter.

However we're now in revisionist times where Brexit apparently means leaving without a deal. Inspite of the leave campaign spending loads of time telling us there was no way we'd not leave with a deal. And so the truth has been distorted so that the only true Brexit is a no deal exit. And in my view that requires a new mandate. Because as much as people will lie and say that's what they always voted for, the majority, IMO did not. And if the consequences are as bad as they could be then there will need to be accountability.

Jeezus Christ...
You only have to look back at the posts Hoboh and I have on this site to see what a pile o'bollocks you talk.

...(whoever you are).

You are not the electorate. If you have a post pre referendum that says Brexit means leaving the EU without a deal and all the issues that come with that then fine. It accounts for you...but not the fact that the official leave campaign, Farage etc all talked about the brilliant deal we’d get. How German car manufacturers would force a deal within weeks that would be so good we wouldn’t believe we’d not thought of this before...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I did vote leave but only after being undecided right up until voting day. It's the hardcore at either ends that we as a country need to bring on side. Insane and his ilk will never accept leave. Farage and right wing Tories aren't going to give up their 'victory' & accept remain.

I just don't see a way out/forward

What I will or won't accept is neither here nor there. I don't believe leaving is the "best" thing for the country. I think all forms of leave are a bad choice.

I can live with a sensible deal that protects the economy as far as possible whilst honoring the result of the referendum. I think it would be worse than remaining but a deal that offers regulatory alignment on goods (some form of customs union/arrangement/partnership whatever you want to call it) and some sort of negotiated market access for goods and services. I could live with. I would see that as a sensible compromise to get us forward. I still wouldn't think it was the best option - but what I think doesn't matter.

However we're now in revisionist times where Brexit apparently means leaving without a deal. Inspite of the leave campaign spending loads of time telling us there was no way we'd not leave with a deal. And so the truth has been distorted so that the only true Brexit is a no deal exit. And in my view that requires a new mandate. Because as much as people will lie and say that's what they always voted for, the majority, IMO did not. And if the consequences are as bad as they could be then there will need to be accountability.

Jeezus Christ...
You only have to look back at the posts Hoboh and I have on this site to see what a pile o'bollocks you talk.

...(whoever you are).

You are not the electorate. If you have a post pre referendum that says Brexit means leaving the EU without a deal and all the issues that come with that then fine. It accounts for you...but not the fact that the official leave campaign, Farage etc all talked about the brilliant deal we’d get. How German car manufacturers would force a deal within weeks that would be so good we wouldn’t believe we’d not thought of this before...

But we are the electorate! And we have many posts pre-Referendum that said just get us out first, negotiate second. That was the Entire Point. Only a fxcking Remainer would have capitulated on first agreeing how much to pay Europe not to have a trade agreement before being stuck in a non withdrawal agreement because of the fxcking Irish fxcking border!?!!!!!??
What Maniac ever thought that up?????

Here's how it works.
We leave.
We don't pay them 40 billion to pass Go.
We then sort out the shit.
After we've left.

Any tit that thinks aircraft will stop flying or that tomatoes won't be available is just that, a tit.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Vincent Deluded Cable "We are clearly now a major national force again".
No Vince, you aren't. You are exactly where Charles Kennedy was in 2004 - remember that loser? In fact can you remember Tim Farron and his 'resurrgence'? Nope, me neither.
Nick Clegg, anybody???

At least he's seen off Soubry

[Lost Leopard Spot]

...In fact who Are you?
I know Enoch lives in Kent and has walked miles after staying for a further round; Domingos is a young punk; Tangodancer has a wife, a dog and a radio to run when he's not tango dancing; Prufrock used to wear a pink dressing gown on a Paris balcony in the mornings drinking fruit juice; Hoboh and Putin have ridden on loud motorbikes to Matlock Bath just to piss me off; Crazy Horse caused Chernobyl; I even know that Jakerbeef is Oirish and Little Green Man is based north of the wall?
But you? Nothing, apart from you moan a lot.
Are you married, do you have children, are you gay? Where do you live, what's your job, how is the therapy progressing? (I'm merely asking to get a handle on where the fxck your head's at - you're like Theresa May of the Wanderers, inscrutably vacant with numerous red lines).

You may have to wait a while for the answer Spots. Our international man of mystery usually applies the debaters handbook method and answers any direct question with a question. Better have your history ready..

Actually Tango, he employs that tactic in full flow but usually he just ignores anything that's embarrassingly awkward for him. He's like a 70s Russian nuclear sub's crew, running on silent mode, wishing they were elsewhere, anywhere elsewhere.

Do you see what I mean?

[TANGODANCER]

...In fact who Are you?
I know Enoch lives in Kent and has walked miles after staying for a further round; Domingos is a young punk; Tangodancer has a wife, a dog and a radio to run when he's not tango dancing; Prufrock used to wear a pink dressing gown on a Paris balcony in the mornings drinking fruit juice; Hoboh and Putin have ridden on loud motorbikes to Matlock Bath just to piss me off; Crazy Horse caused Chernobyl; I even know that Jakerbeef is Oirish and Little Green Man is based north of the wall?
But you? Nothing, apart from you moan a lot.
Are you married, do you have children, are you gay? Where do you live, what's your job, how is the therapy progressing? (I'm merely asking to get a handle on where the fxck your head's at - you're like Theresa May of the Wanderers, inscrutably vacant with numerous red lines).

You may have to wait a while for the answer Spots. Our international man of mystery usually applies the debaters handbook method and answers any direct question with a question. Better have your history ready..

Actually Tango, he employs that tactic in full flow but usually he just ignores anything that's embarrassingly awkward for him. He's like a 70s Russian nuclear sub's crew, running on silent mode, wishing they were elsewhere, anywhere elsewhere.

Do you see what I mean?

Nothing unexpected , "rebuttal" is his middle name.

[Prufrock]

You're so weird.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Theresa May in Brussels. What a waste of public funds, I mean what the fxck is she doing there?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Channel 4 News just interviewing a woman (missed her name) about the HRC investigation into Labour and anti-Semitism has an uncalled for close up of her hooked nose!!!!
What the fxck was that about????