The Keith Hill out thread

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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by TonyDomingos » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:36 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:10 pm
officer_dibble wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:18 pm
Replacements?
Has to be a diamond amidst the rough out there somewhere...?
Might seem a bit obvious but I like the sound of what Ian Evatt's done at "Barrowcelona" - seems like a good combination of coaching style and non-league management nous. It might seem a wrench for him to leave them if they do get promoted (as I hope they will) but then he might figure we've got more head-room than them.

It remains to be seen what state football's in. There are going to be hundreds of lower-league players unemployed so it might not be a bad idea to have someone on board who knows the good from the bad. Hill has the knowledge to assemble a decent team – he proved that on 24 hours' notice – but I've come to regretfully suspect that his coaching isn't up to it.

The contacts book doesn't have to be in the back pocket of the bloke in the dugout but we're in a state of flux above, too: the whole "Moneyball" model; Tobias Phoenix as the new (since Feb) "Head of Football Operations" but hardly with a wealth of knowledge; questions over Peter Kenyon's involvement or lack thereof; understandable cashflow questions leading to the never-distant Nixonian "Dubai moneyman" rumours...

I suspect that if there's anything like a "pre-season", we might have dozens of trialists. Who brings them in and who decides who stays? Good questions.

One thing I did notice – and I might have mentioned it here or I might not (but you might as well read it again, what else are you doing?) - is that the top six managers in Division Four last season, as we must now call it, were all young. In descending order from the top (on points not PPG):
• Swindon's (Manc) Richie Wellens turned 40 in lockdown
• Crewe's David Artell is 39
• Plymouth's (Scouse) Ryan Lowe is 41
• Cheltenham's Michael Duff (who was at Burnley for 14 years to 2018) is 42
• Exeter's (Chorley-born) Matt Taylor (not that one) is 38
• Colchester's (Scouse) John McGreal is the old man of the bunch at 47

Nor is this a one-off season. In 2018/19, the top teams were managed by Danny Cowley (then 40), Lowe again (40) and Paul Tisdale (then 46, now unemployed), Flicker (45), Mark Cooper (50), Micky Mellon (47), Mike Flynn (38), McGreal again (46), Taylor again (37), Dino Maamria (47), Steven Pressley (45)... this is making me feel very old...

I've previously gone on record as stating that I'd prefer us to have experience, but I'm beginning to drop that demand. What we will need is stability and guidance off the pitch.

And Evatt is 38. Slightly odd what's gone on at Barrow this season. They lost 6 of their first 9 games, but then went on an amazing run, losing only 5 of the next 28. However, Notts County and Harrogate were the form teams before lockdown and I think one of them might well have pipped Barrow to the title (Barrow had only taken 7pts from their last 5 games). In other words, a great six month spell in an otherwise unnotable managerial career doesn't a decent manager make!

County's manager, Neil Ardley, might be a better bet, though he is ancient at 47. But, I think we have a good record with former Notts County managers. :wink:
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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by officer_dibble » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:01 pm

I think we need someone young not fazed by past heights of the club. Happy to stick it to the fans who still hang on those past glories as well...I think it’s time to twist on someone Hoping they are a next big thing - someone with some decent contacts for the division as well.

Plenty will clamour for Nolan - but why has he not had another gig?

I’d be happy to see Gary o Neil back in a coaching capacity as well.

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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:38 pm

We need someone who has some track record to call on. No point just hoping an untested manager will be good unless there is some serious reason or evidence. We need someone on the rise in their career, so the younger end. Someone with burning desire and who has ideas. No point just bringing in a jaded manager because we are in a bad situation and it will take someone who knows that and wants to bring everything they’ve got to turn it round.

Pretty tough to find that.

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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by Harry Genshaw » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:35 pm

^ I just dont think that person exists Insane. Certainly not at our level. They'll either be young and hungry yet inexperienced or experienced with at least some guff on their CV.

The former group would be your Dougie Freedman or John McGovern types. The latter, Keith Hill, David Flitcroft, Simon Grayson?

Of those young guns listed earlier, Ryan Lowe has 1 partial relegation and 2 promotions on his cv but I think we're beyond attracting that type of manager.

I've never been a fan but perhaps Grayson might be a good shout and the best we could hope for given our circumstances? Last chance saloon for him
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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:42 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:35 pm
^ I just dont think that person exists Insane. Certainly not at our level. They'll either be young and hungry yet inexperienced or experienced with at least some guff on their CV.

The former group would be your Dougie Freedman or John McGovern types. The latter, Keith Hill, David Flitcroft, Simon Grayson?

Of those young guns listed earlier, Ryan Lowe has 1 partial relegation and 2 promotions on his cv but I think we're beyond attracting that type of manager.

I've never been a fan but perhaps Grayson might be a good shout and the best we could hope for given our circumstances? Last chance saloon for him
I suspect they exist but finding them is needle in haystack. I guess one thing I look at with two managers who did well here in Big Sam and Parky is that they both came in accepted what they had and were determined to find ways to squeeze everything out. The ones who failed were always moaning about what they didn’t have or wanted to use the fact they didn’t have stuff as a way to excuse their failure.

Bruce Rioch is best example in that when he came here I’m sure he wanted more money and better players but he worked tirelessly to get the ones in needed with an approach of begging and working the circuit. He drove himself to do it. We need that attitude rather than ‘if you can’t let me sign x,y and z what do you expect?”

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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by Harry Genshaw » Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:24 pm

Rioch was a great appointment and pretty leftfield at the time with Don Mackay the clear favourite, yet his managerial career elsewhere was pretty poor. Right man right time obviously
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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:41 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:24 pm
Rioch was a great appointment and pretty leftfield at the time with Don Mackay the clear favourite, yet his managerial career elsewhere was pretty poor. Right man right time obviously
Yeah, he’d done ok before us, his mistake career wise was leaving us, though he did it for personal reasons. Arsenal finished him effectively, with the way their players treated him.

He had drive though - all managers who’ve done well here have had real drive to get things right and fight. I’d hope we are drawing up the qualities needed. As you say we won’t find them in a neat finished package.

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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:17 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:24 pm
Rioch was a great appointment and pretty leftfield at the time with Don Mackay the clear favourite, yet his managerial career elsewhere was pretty poor. Right man right time obviously
Really? Having been too young to know him in his playing career, I'll admit I didn't know much about him at all when his name first appeared - in fact I thought his surname was pronounced R-eye-och :oops: - but he'd taken Boro from bankruptcy to the top flight via two successive promotions, only got relegated on the last day, then got Millwall into the second-tier play-offs. Considering we'd been in the lower divisions for nine long years when he arrived, I think we were rather lucky to have him - especially as he was commuting from Harpenden and the thought must have occurred to him that a more local job would come up. Still, I'm spectacularly glad it all worked out for everyone...

(On another note - Don Mackay was employed by Fulham at the time; chairman Jimmy Hill sacked him at half-time of a game in March 1994. Maybe it was Dave Mackay, who after being sacked by third-tier Birmingham had spent a title-winning season in Egypt?)

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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:31 pm

officer_dibble wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:01 pm
I think we need someone young not fazed by past heights of the club. Happy to stick it to the fans who still hang on those past glories as well...I think it’s time to twist on someone Hoping they are a next big thing - someone with some decent contacts for the division as well.
Always a risk, this, Dibs. In times of shite, past glories are all fans have, and realism doesn't sell tickets. One of the charges levelled at Hill is that he thinks the fans are over-demanding given the situation. Unless I'm misunderstanding your "stick it to the fans", I'm not sure we need someone confrontational for the sake of it.
officer_dibble wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:01 pm
Plenty will clamour for Nolan - but why has he not had another gig?

I’d be happy to see Gary o Neil back in a coaching capacity as well.
Gaz O'Neil - I'm a bit surprised Hillcroft didn't want to know there, he was clearly happy to come back. Maybe there's more to it, or maybe it's just another bad decision.

Nolan was the favourite last time but didn't get the gig, so it'd be interesting to see if
(1) he went for it (I'd expect so if he wants a No.1 job, but remember he's at West Ham)
(2) FV welcomed the application (daft not to)
(3) FV were willing to eat humble pie and appoint him (possible)

However, it's been noted that Nolan's successes seem to have been very short-term and although he had a good spell at each of his two clubs, they both went down to non-league the following year. Did he over-achieve or just over-spend?

At the risk of enraging Rioja, I think we might be more likely to get Phil Brown. He seems to be making a go of it in India but I think his heart and head my tell him to try to fulfil our potential. I'm not saying he's the answer, but he studied under professors Allardyce and Rioch...

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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:21 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:17 pm
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:24 pm
Rioch was a great appointment and pretty leftfield at the time with Don Mackay the clear favourite, yet his managerial career elsewhere was pretty poor. Right man right time obviously
Really? Having been too young to know him in his playing career, I'll admit I didn't know much about him at all when his name first appeared
Time may have blurred the memory banks and without looking at wikipedia, my recollection of his managerial career was
Torquay - sacked for kicking a trainee in the head
Boro - Amazing job but then tailed off badly and he was sacked
Millwall - Didnt click for him and them and he got on the wrong side of Danny Baker
Us - Great
Arsenal - Unappreciated and unloved. Gave them Bergkamp but our side was ruined while he did a year for them until they could get Wenger in.
Norwich & Wigan? Didnt do well or last long at either iirc.

I'd agree that Phil Brown is a reasonable shout if we want experience. Yer man Grayson too. Chris Coleman? Richie Barker?. Managers who have done well elsewhere, no current prospects and who fancy a last crack at getting it right.
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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by officer_dibble » Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:43 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:31 pm
officer_dibble wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:01 pm
I think we need someone young not fazed by past heights of the club. Happy to stick it to the fans who still hang on those past glories as well...I think it’s time to twist on someone Hoping they are a next big thing - someone with some decent contacts for the division as well.
Always a risk, this, Dibs. In times of shite, past glories are all fans have, and realism doesn't sell tickets. One of the charges levelled at Hill is that he thinks the fans are over-demanding given the situation. Unless I'm misunderstanding your "stick it to the fans", I'm not sure we need someone confrontational for the sake of it
I’m not saying someone to have a pop at the fans, but there’s a large section of our Fan base that need a dose of realism. Yes we will be the biggest show in town next season but that just puts us as the number one team everyone wants a result against. We are going to start the season (whenever it starts) playing catch up, again, no contracted players and no end in sight...need a siege mentality with whoever does get the squad together. Last thing we want is fans rocking up expecting to win 5-0 every week at places where attendances are sub 5k. Needs someone to be open and realistic - none of this dream an impossible dream shite - hard graft and we will get what we deserve.

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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by TonyDomingos » Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:11 pm

Remind me: will Hill be out on 30 June?
Às armas, às armas!
Sobre a terra, sobre o mar,
Às armas, às armas!
Pela Pátria lutar!
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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:52 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:31 pm
officer_dibble wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:01 pm
I think we need someone young not fazed by past heights of the club. Happy to stick it to the fans who still hang on those past glories as well...I think it’s time to twist on someone Hoping they are a next big thing - someone with some decent contacts for the division as well.
Always a risk, this, Dibs. In times of shite, past glories are all fans have, and realism doesn't sell tickets. One of the charges levelled at Hill is that he thinks the fans are over-demanding given the situation. Unless I'm misunderstanding your "stick it to the fans", I'm not sure we need someone confrontational for the sake of it.
officer_dibble wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:01 pm
Plenty will clamour for Nolan - but why has he not had another gig?

I’d be happy to see Gary o Neil back in a coaching capacity as well.
Gaz O'Neil - I'm a bit surprised Hillcroft didn't want to know there, he was clearly happy to come back. Maybe there's more to it, or maybe it's just another bad decision.

Suspect it was money. Bridcutt on a loan where we paid peanuts or pay Gaz O'Neil enough to uproot and come back North...I mean he wanted to, but you've still got to make it worth his and his families' while - and would probably have put him top end of wage bracket. And I guess age and top end wages were all factors against. You could see the logic - Bridcutt/Crawford were probably better bets initially - obviously as time went on he would have walked into our team even if balancing on one leg.

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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by Athertonian » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:51 am

As much as it pains me to say "stick with Hill", we've been down the "young hungry manager" road before and it doesn't normally produce the best results.. This is one hell of an important season coming up, the club needs someone with a bit more experience than someone without. No doubt at some point during the season I'll be gunning for Hill again.

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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:51 pm

Athertonian wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:51 am
As much as it pains me to say "stick with Hill", we've been down the "young hungry manager" road before and it doesn't normally produce the best results.. This is one hell of an important season coming up, the club needs someone with a bit more experience than someone without. No doubt at some point during the season I'll be gunning for Hill again.
I'm firmly in the Hill is no good camp BUT just potting him to pluck a random inexperienced needle in haystack type doesn't fill me with confidence. The whole thing seems predicated on Tobias Phoenix's ability to act as a DOF and pick the right players and manager. Lets hope he's a genius who will transform the club on the field.

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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by Harry Genshaw » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:30 pm

Athertonian wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:51 am
As much as it pains me to say "stick with Hill", we've been down the "young hungry manager" road before and it doesn't normally produce the best results.. This is one hell of an important season coming up, the club needs someone with a bit more experience than someone without. No doubt at some point during the season I'll be gunning for Hill again.
I dont think it would be the worst thing to give Hill another go next season. Rather that than replacing him with the wrong person.

The positives;
He's an experienced coach
He knows this level and has been successful there before.
Based on last season, he does have an eye for a player (Verlinden, Bridcutt, Bryan, Murphy etc)
He knows the club

The negatives;
Defensively, we were awful for most of the season
He comes across as an absolute bell end and seems pretty divisive
Accrington
He's inexperienced at managing a club of our size and relatively modest expectation
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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by Athertonian » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:41 pm

Wasn't Allardyce quite an inexperienced manager at the time we appointed him? we also gave him a ten year contract.

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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by Harry Genshaw » Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:51 pm

Athertonian wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:41 pm
Wasn't Allardyce quite an inexperienced manager at the time we appointed him? we also gave him a ten year contract.
A spell in Ireland
A near miss with Blackpool
A partial relegation then storming promotion with Notts County.

So not a novice by any means. The 10 year contract came later into his reign didnt it?
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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by Enoch » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:05 pm

Is it too early to start a "Keith Hill's Successor Out" thread?

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Re: The Keith Hill out thread

Post by officer_dibble » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:51 am

TonyDomingos wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:11 pm
Remind me: will Hill be out on 30 June?
Looks like it. Iles has him and Flitcroft as goners today. Who’s next?!

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