creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

[Worthy4England]

6, 7 and 8 are probably still "batters" too. Hopefully they'll show it between 'em.

Whilst being fair to Buttler, Moeen and Curran none of them are players I'd particularly fancy or choose to have to defend for 2 hours.....

It's correct we should look at the top order. But these folks are in for their batting ability too. Buttler isn't in because he's the best keeper we have, Ali probably isn't the best spinner and Curran is no better than first change...

[BWFC_Insane]

6, 7 and 8 are probably still "batters" too. Hopefully they'll show it between 'em.

Whilst being fair to Buttler, Moeen and Curran none of them are players I'd particularly fancy or choose to have to defend for 2 hours.....

It's correct we should look at the top order. But these folks are in for their batting ability too. Buttler isn't in because he's the best keeper we have, Ali probably isn't the best spinner and Curran is no better than first change...

To an extent I think they'd be a great middle order if the top order got runs - attacking players who'd score quickly. But in this side in this situation? No.

[Worthy4England]

I think you're effectively saying there's no point picking them at the moment....

[Worthy4England]

Twitch again...

[Worthy4England]

Fcuk me.

[Prufrock]

Another record, first Lord's test king pair apparently.

[Worthy4England]

Well we did have a couple of goes at it, in fairness. Set it up nicely.

[jimbo]

Not really a likeable bunch this Indian team are they. Robinson did well there. Hopefully buttler can try and protect wood and Anderson as much as possible here.

[Worthy4England]

No Sir. Good effort though by Buttler

[jimbo]

Astonishing really that we’ve lost this. Really terrible day. Think we’ll lose the next 3 now. This felt like our chance.

[BWFC_Insane]

Utterly disgraceful day of cricket from England. Take Buttlers efforts out and rest showed no fight or heart or appetite for the scrap.

The questions need to be extremely tough. This group have absolutely got to answer them. I suspect Root needs to offer his captaincy. Yes there is nobody else but he’s patently not a test cricket captain and he needs to acknowledge he’s aware of this too.

I don’t think I’ve ever been as angry about an England performance as I am this one. To get Pant out and then from there lose like this is shocking.

A root and branch review of the English game is required and the management now need to openly acknowledge this is not just a bad few years is a full blown crisis. Until they face up to the scale of the problem we won’t solve it.

Silverwood for me was always the wrong appointment too especially for what looked like a difficult phase. He needs to go now. Useless.

[Worthy4England]

Utterly disgraceful day of cricket from England. Take Buttlers efforts out and rest showed no fight or heart or appetite for the scrap.

The questions need to be extremely tough. This group have absolutely got to answer them. I suspect Root needs to offer his captaincy. Yes there is nobody else but he’s patently not a test cricket captain and he needs to acknowledge he’s aware of this too.

I don’t think I’ve ever been as angry about an England performance as I am this one. To get Pant out and then from there lose like this is shocking.

A root and branch review of the English game is required and the management now need to openly acknowledge this is not just a bad few years is a full blown crisis. Until they face up to the scale of the problem we won’t solve it.

Silverwood for me was always the wrong appointment too especially for what looked like a difficult phase. He needs to go now. Useless.

I know you like to make an exception for Jos, but Ali also tried to tuck in, as did Robinson. Jos could've been out for 2 when Kholi dropped a dolly...

[BWFC_Insane]

Utterly disgraceful day of cricket from England. Take Buttlers efforts out and rest showed no fight or heart or appetite for the scrap.

The questions need to be extremely tough. This group have absolutely got to answer them. I suspect Root needs to offer his captaincy. Yes there is nobody else but he’s patently not a test cricket captain and he needs to acknowledge he’s aware of this too.

I don’t think I’ve ever been as angry about an England performance as I am this one. To get Pant out and then from there lose like this is shocking.

A root and branch review of the English game is required and the management now need to openly acknowledge this is not just a bad few years is a full blown crisis. Until they face up to the scale of the problem we won’t solve it.

Silverwood for me was always the wrong appointment too especially for what looked like a difficult phase. He needs to go now. Useless.

I know you like to make an exception for Jos, but Ali also tried to tuck in, as did Robinson. Jos could've been out for 2 when Kholi dropped a dolly...

Probably wouldn’t exempt anyone overall. Buttler showed a bit of heart. But he got lucky. Ali also got lucky but tried I suppose. Robinson overall had a good game.

But I’m angry because we lost not really because we weren’t good enough but because we lost our heads and India fought harder than we did. This side isn’t very good but if it went out with belief and fight it would go further. I don’t think the people in charge are any good at all.

The players we know in many cases aren’t good enough. But India were completely up for today and you cannot argue we were. They were bold and positive and fought. We as ever cowered away and when it got tough completely lost our minds.

[Prufrock]

I mean Root top scored again, after 180* in the first innings. You can criticise his captaincy but it's pretty tough to criticise his batting at the moment.

[BWFC_Insane]

I mean Root top scored again, after 180* in the first innings. You can criticise his captaincy but it's pretty tough to criticise his batting at the moment.

Absolutely. His batting is brilliant. His captaincy woeful. We have to of course build around Joe but thankfully he was at least honest in his interview that he got it wrong today.

[Prufrock]

Ah with you, hadn't clocked your "overall".

I thought Root got it v wrong in the field but I'm not seeing many alternatives. Who else is even guaranteed a spot? Probably only Stokes (though he's clearly not in a place to do it right now) and probably/possibly Butler. They're both part of the current leadership group.

Tough to see where the challengers for the team are too. Shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic. I'd be tempted to bring Crawley back and bump Hameed up one but that feels a bit hit and hope. That one knock (Pakistan?) aside he's been pretty woeful too.

[BWFC_Insane]

Ah with you, hadn't clocked your "overall".

I thought Root got it v wrong in the field but I'm not seeing many alternatives. Who else is even guaranteed a spot? Probably only Stokes (though he's clearly not in a place to do it right now) and probably/possibly Butler. They're both part of the current leadership group.

Tough to see where the challengers for the team are too. Shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic. I'd be tempted to bring Crawley back and bump Hameed up one but that feels a bit hit and hope. That one knock (Pakistan?) aside he's been pretty woeful too.

Yep its not easy. I'd shunt Silverwood - I didn't think he was the right appointment at the time and I really don't now. Its not an overnight fix but for me we need someone with personality to help get the team in a different mindset. Silverwood is quiet and careful and whatever which might work when you've got Cook, Strauss and the likes but this team is struggling. It needs a different type of coach. Root is also quiet and not exactly demonstrative and I think and feel the team believes its beaten before they start. I don't see much fire. Its true we're not very good but its also true we have some amazing players who are the best at what they do and yet we're not really benefitting from it. The confusion over Moeen is a prime example. In out, in out. Yet for me he's a player who SHOULD play especially in Stokes' absence. A good experienced competitor, gets wickets and can bat. Why wouldn't you have him in given we've no front line spinner and no all rounder?

There are limited things you can do about the top order. We all know that. But we need to therefore bowl much more tightly than we have. Restrict teams. Jimmy and Robinson are very very good. But they need backup in the field and Root to realise that in essence we need to really focus on line and length and probe away at teams because we're not blowing anyone away and also we can't leave ourselves chasing too many.

There are basic things for me that are just wrong about how the team's been managed even given our limited choices. Some stuff is purely structural - like the fact that none of these have played any first class cricket for months. And they can't because the bastard hundred is going on now. Crawley is a good example - he could go and play a first class game or two and I suspect with that work in him would have more chance in a test match. But instead he's in and out. He's not ready yet but then won't get ready playing the hundred.

[Worthy4England]

We have a real problem with batting. Root is out there on his tod. The rest have been poor this year with "good averages" being 25-31. Which is where, Stokes, Buttler, Burns, Lawrence and Bairstow sit for the year...Pope and Ali sneak in at low 20's, the rest, less than that.

That's one currently world class (or even test average) batsman.

So if anyone can point us to 6 better batsmen currently, I'm all ears...

[BWFC_Insane]

We have a real problem with batting. Root is out there on his tod. The rest have been poor this year with "good averages" being 25-31. Which is where, Stokes, Buttler, Burns, Lawrence and Bairstow sit for the year...Pope and Ali sneak in at low 20's, the rest, less than that.

That's one currently world class (or even test average) batsman.

So if anyone can point us to 6 better batsmen currently, I'm all ears...

I don't think you can solve this in the short term. In fact we know we cannot. So there are two things that need looking at urgently.

1) How can we in the short term make the most of what we've got to try and be competitive in test matches.
2) In the long term how do we start bringing through test level batsmen (we seem to manage with bowlers but perhaps same question would apply over a period).

1 is not easy but I think we need a realisation and acceptance internally that we go into most series as serious underdogs. And we need to start picking teams and playing cricket accordingly. It might be like I say about being a more restrictive side in the field, trying to stifle teams because ultimately we know most of the time we'll struggle to score a lot of runs. Will this suddenly mean we win tests? No but I think we've enough quality to at least compete with India in England - win? No. Compete and not look like fools? Yes. To some extent I think acknowledging where we really are might help and take some pressure off the players. If you said 'we know Crawley isn't test quality yet but he is in to learn and get better' for example perhaps he'd relax a bit. Perhaps we need to seriously consider the batting order to try and ensure there is balance there. Players batting with Root seem to do better which is understandable. Yet the openers who are both struggling as is number 3 perhaps need more experience round them. We can't magic up 300 runs and have to accept we'll lose a lot. But the manner in which we play has to change to reflect that we are one of the poorer test sides right now.

2 needs someone who really understands the game and process to accept the current failings and put together a clear plan of action.

The white ball team was useless. And people bemoaned them. The ECB had enough of this, put a plan together and 4 years later we won the world bloody cup. The same needs to happen for test cricket NOW. Its been years coming and if yesterday's utter humiliation isn't the catalyst to say 'we've hit rock bottom how do we dig ourselves out' then nothing bloody ever will be.

[Worthy4England]

It certainly feels like it needs a plan. As Jimbo says, Sibley is one who's scoring in CC at opener along with Burns. He's done nothing this year to merit his place, yet is probably in the top 2 best English openers in the CC. We've had plenty of similar stories with opening bats since Strauss, with none of the 26 of them (apart from Joe Root) averaging above Burns...

Suspect if I could find the same table for No 3's it would tell a similar story.

So whilst I agree on the need for a plan, I'm not sure what that plan is....maybe lock someone up in nets for 4 years...