January 2022 Transfer Thread

[Prufrock]

There is a danger we are starting to believe in some imaginary hype. We are currently a bottom half, closer to relegation than the play offs, league one side.

If you want to compare with Parky’s side we currently exactly half way through the season. We are on track to score 8 fewer goals and concede essentially double the goals that team did. So by no metric are we better. Not one.


I’m not having this constant pretence we are Man City or Barcelona. We are in the trenches in league one and conceding too many goals. Our centre halves are all poor. Very poor. And Wheater and Beevers would walk into this side even with a bad back each. They are just far superior players to the collection of rejects and non league losers we have there. Santos is absolute garbage. Let’s stop pretending. A weak, soft mistake ridden defender. Let’s just call a spade a spade. He came from non league for a reason. He’s not very good.

Comparing him with players who even on their worst day are ten times better is just nonsense.

Firstly, no-one is saying we are better than that side at the moment. It's about players suiting styles. Of course you can compare this side to Parky's. And right now, the result of the comparison is that that team was better. But we were in League Two with no players 18 months ago (Parky had of course done two rebuilding jobs, but I'm not knocking him, I thought he was a v good manager for us).

It's Ghost's point above. Javier Mascherano won countless trophies at Barcelona at centre back. But he wouldn't get into Burnley's team there. That's not to argue Ben Mee is a better centre back than Mascherano, he patently isn't, but he suits Burnley's style better.

Equally in not saying Santos and Aimson are a better pairing than Wheater and Aimson (they're not, that pairing was by far the best in League 1 at the time, by miles. You don't need to be anywhere near as good as those two to go up), but they do suit our style better, and the gamble is that is worth more. Your centre backs individually aren't as good in broad terms, but they allow you to play in a way that is itself more effective (we had to do a lot more defending under Parky because we didn't dominate possession anywhere near as much). No-one is arguing we are there yet, but that's what we're working towards. And in the context of this argument, the thing that is holding us back more at the moment is the midfield. We're still going to have to come back to the centre backs before we go up, but they're less of a problem now.

However, if you think we'd be better off with Weevers *under Evatt*, starting position is the halfway line, your fullbacks have gone forward, it's just Weevers, MJ in front and half a pitch behind, regularly over 90mins, then you are so wrong that there's no point talking about it anymore.

Back into the realms of realistic arguments, I don't agree on Santos. I think there are reasons at the moment that mean we can't play in a way that suits his strengths, but there's a v good player in there. He needs a partner. I've seen enough of Aimson to think it might be him. I don't think it's Johnstone in a 2, and obvs Baps is on his last legs. I think we need a couple before we're ready to go up. But they're going to need to be quick, and comfortable on the ball, and given trade offs at this level that probably means they aren't going to be great defending the box. For your own sake you might as well make peace with that now.

[BWFC_Insane]

There is a danger we are starting to believe in some imaginary hype. We are currently a bottom half, closer to relegation than the play offs, league one side.

If you want to compare with Parky’s side we currently exactly half way through the season. We are on track to score 8 fewer goals and concede essentially double the goals that team did. So by no metric are we better. Not one.


I’m not having this constant pretence we are Man City or Barcelona. We are in the trenches in league one and conceding too many goals. Our centre halves are all poor. Very poor. And Wheater and Beevers would walk into this side even with a bad back each. They are just far superior players to the collection of rejects and non league losers we have there. Santos is absolute garbage. Let’s stop pretending. A weak, soft mistake ridden defender. Let’s just call a spade a spade. He came from non league for a reason. He’s not very good.

Comparing him with players who even on their worst day are ten times better is just nonsense.

Firstly, no-one is saying we are better than that side at the moment. It's about players suiting styles. Of course you can compare this side to Parky's. And right now, the result of the comparison is that that team was better. But we were in League Two with no players 18 months ago (Parky had of course done two rebuilding jobs, but I'm not knocking him, I thought he was a v good manager for us).

It's Ghost's point above. Javier Mascherano won countless trophies at Barcelona at centre back. But he wouldn't get into Burnley's team there. That's not to argue Ben Mee is a better centre back than Mascherano, he patently isn't, but he suits Burnley's style better.

Equally in not saying Santos and Aimson are a better pairing than Wheater and Aimson (they're not, that pairing was by far the best in League 1 at the time, by miles. You don't need to be anywhere near as good as those two to go up), but they do suit our style better, and the gamble is that is worth more. Your centre backs individually aren't as good in broad terms, but they allow you to play in a way that is itself more effective (we had to do a lot more defending under Parky because we didn't dominate possession anywhere near as much). No-one is arguing we are there yet, but that's what we're working towards. And in the context of this argument, the thing that is holding us back more at the moment is the midfield. We're still going to have to come back to the centre backs before we go up, but they're less of a problem now.

However, if you think we'd be better off with Weevers *under Evatt*, starting position is the halfway line, your fullbacks have gone forward, it's just Weevers, MJ in front and half a pitch behind, regularly over 90mins, then you are so wrong that there's no point talking about it anymore.

Back into the realms of realistic arguments, I don't agree on Santos. I think there are reasons at the moment that mean we can't play in a way that suits his strengths, but there's a v good player in there. He needs a partner. I've seen enough of Aimson to think it might be him. I don't think it's Johnstone in a 2, and obvs Baps is on his last legs. I think we need a couple before we're ready to go up. But they're going to need to be quick, and comfortable on the ball, and given trade offs at this level that probably means they aren't going to be great defending the box. For your own sake you might as well make peace with that now.

There is no side who will be successful in this league without centre halves who can defend their box. You can try and spin it any way you want. But it’s just a fact. Rotherham, Wigan, Sunderland they all have centre halves who can do that. It’s not optional.

You can talk about styles and other stuff absolutely. You can ignore Wheater and Beevers and cite other examples like Gudni and Whitlow. They weren’t massive lumps but they could defend. This league punishes teams who can’t defend their box because most teams will have spells in games. I’d you are likely to concede in them….you are in trouble.

[Worthy4England]

It strikes me that wherever we put the stop line, we're a couple of players short that would follow the same affordability argument that's being used for why we can't afford two CDs that can both pass and tackle.

If the stop line is further forwards/wider than Santos/Aimison, then for me, neither Jones nor John stop enough balls coming into the box.

MJ and Lee at this level, don't have enough command defensively to stop the through balls.

Further forwards, the press isn't generally of sufficient quality...

As I say, I don't really care where Evatt sets the stop line and it's never as cut and dried as we'll just stop them using the front three, but the players than can do that are as mythic as the two CDs that can tackle, head and pass...

So if you can't get the players you need further forwards, and you don't have them at the back, then you leak 1.6 or 2 goals per league game, like we did in August and October, before COVID and a huge injury list was being used as the excuse. (Maybe the excuse then was we didn't have enough "content" downloaded...)

Before we get all Internet binary, I don't want Evatt's head, I want him to sort it out and I don't care which area of the pitch he does it in...

[BWFC_Insane]

It strikes me that wherever we put the stop line, we're a couple of players short that would follow the same affordability argument that's being used for why we can't afford two CDs that can both pass and tackle.

If the stop line is further forwards/wider than Santos/Aimison, then for me, neither Jones nor John stop enough balls coming into the box.

MJ and Lee at this level, don't have enough command defensively to stop the through balls.

Further forwards, the press isn't generally of sufficient quality...

As I say, I don't really care where Evatt sets the stop line and it's never as cut and dried as we'll just stop them using the front three, but the players than can do that are as mythic as the two CDs that can tackle, head and pass...

So if you can't get the players you need further forwards, and you don't have them at the back, then you leak 1.6 or 2 goals per league game, like we did in August and October, before COVID and a huge injury list was being used as the excuse. (Maybe the excuse then was we didn't have enough "content" downloaded...)

Before we get all Internet binary, I don't want Evatt's head, I want him to sort it out and I don't care which area of the pitch he does it in...

See I agree. I just think it’s more realistic to get some solid defenders than it is to bolster midfield and forward areas sufficiently to be able to play with that higher line effectively.

Evatt might want a style but he doesn’t have the centre halves for it anyway. None of them are exactly Beckenbauer. If we could defend I think we have enough going forwards to win games and we can add to that as we already have.

But I’ve never seen a good team built on a leaky defence.

I’d also cite that the second half of last season was built primarily on not conceding. Even in many games where we had periods of sitting deeper and having to defend our box. We did that a lot. Sure we had possession in spells but many games ended with us just digging in. We weren’t free scoring or even slightly high scorers in that spell. This is often conveniently forgotten. And that back four essentially was held together by Baptiste’s experience and marshalling Santos who had an awful first half. But Baps is no more and Santos is seeing the step up in quality too much and for me our centre back signings were both dubious in the extreme. I don’t think Santos is great either I think with the right partner he could be ok but we don’t have one and even then for such a big unit his command in both boxes is hugely lacking.

The other thing is our full backs defensively obviously have struggled much more in league one than league two.

[Prufrock]

There is a danger we are starting to believe in some imaginary hype. We are currently a bottom half, closer to relegation than the play offs, league one side.

If you want to compare with Parky’s side we currently exactly half way through the season. We are on track to score 8 fewer goals and concede essentially double the goals that team did. So by no metric are we better. Not one.


I’m not having this constant pretence we are Man City or Barcelona. We are in the trenches in league one and conceding too many goals. Our centre halves are all poor. Very poor. And Wheater and Beevers would walk into this side even with a bad back each. They are just far superior players to the collection of rejects and non league losers we have there. Santos is absolute garbage. Let’s stop pretending. A weak, soft mistake ridden defender. Let’s just call a spade a spade. He came from non league for a reason. He’s not very good.

Comparing him with players who even on their worst day are ten times better is just nonsense.

Firstly, no-one is saying we are better than that side at the moment. It's about players suiting styles. Of course you can compare this side to Parky's. And right now, the result of the comparison is that that team was better. But we were in League Two with no players 18 months ago (Parky had of course done two rebuilding jobs, but I'm not knocking him, I thought he was a v good manager for us).

It's Ghost's point above. Javier Mascherano won countless trophies at Barcelona at centre back. But he wouldn't get into Burnley's team there. That's not to argue Ben Mee is a better centre back than Mascherano, he patently isn't, but he suits Burnley's style better.

Equally in not saying Santos and Aimson are a better pairing than Wheater and Aimson (they're not, that pairing was by far the best in League 1 at the time, by miles. You don't need to be anywhere near as good as those two to go up), but they do suit our style better, and the gamble is that is worth more. Your centre backs individually aren't as good in broad terms, but they allow you to play in a way that is itself more effective (we had to do a lot more defending under Parky because we didn't dominate possession anywhere near as much). No-one is arguing we are there yet, but that's what we're working towards. And in the context of this argument, the thing that is holding us back more at the moment is the midfield. We're still going to have to come back to the centre backs before we go up, but they're less of a problem now.

However, if you think we'd be better off with Weevers *under Evatt*, starting position is the halfway line, your fullbacks have gone forward, it's just Weevers, MJ in front and half a pitch behind, regularly over 90mins, then you are so wrong that there's no point talking about it anymore.

Back into the realms of realistic arguments, I don't agree on Santos. I think there are reasons at the moment that mean we can't play in a way that suits his strengths, but there's a v good player in there. He needs a partner. I've seen enough of Aimson to think it might be him. I don't think it's Johnstone in a 2, and obvs Baps is on his last legs. I think we need a couple before we're ready to go up. But they're going to need to be quick, and comfortable on the ball, and given trade offs at this level that probably means they aren't going to be great defending the box. For your own sake you might as well make peace with that now.

There is no side who will be successful in this league without centre halves who can defend their box. You can try and spin it any way you want. But it’s just a fact. Rotherham, Wigan, Sunderland they all have centre halves who can do that. It’s not optional.

You can talk about styles and other stuff absolutely. You can ignore Wheater and Beevers and cite other examples like Gudni and Whitlow. They weren’t massive lumps but they could defend. This league punishes teams who can’t defend their box because most teams will have spells in games. I’d you are likely to concede in them….you are in trouble.

Sure, but we're back to my point about absolutes. Santos +1 aren't a 0/10. They defended the box pretty well first half yesterday. You couldn't go with Mascherano and Cannavaro in League 1 because you'll have to defend your box in spells but you can do things to reduce the length and intensity of those spells.

Let's say partnership A concedes 2x goals defending their box than partnership B. Defending the same number of crosses, partnership A will concede more goals. But if you play in a way that means you let in fewer than half as many crosses, you're better off.

Reductive numbers for the sake of argument, but that illustrates the approach. We're not getting Weevers with pace and ability on the ball. They'd be Champo if not Prem players. So you either change the approach, sign Weevers types but defend deeper, give up the ball more, or you have to have an entire team who can play in a way where you minimise (not eliminate) the amount of defending deep you have to do. Obviously you want the former, but it isn't going to happen. And given it isn't going to happen, you either need centre backs who have Santos' qualities AND can defend their box (also not going to happen) or you fix the problems elsewhere (IMO much more likely to happen).

[GhostoftheBok]

It sounds, from Evatt's comments, like we may see a centre half come in in January. Evatt spoke in plurals about all areas of the team - more forwards, more midfielders and more defenders.

It's been said before, but to reliably challenge at the top end of this league over a full season we probably need another keeper, 3 more defenders, 3 more mids and another 3 forwards beyond Charles (assuming Doyle leaves before his deal expires).

We can argue back and forth all day, but we need players in and the manager is indicating we will get more of them in this window than we may have reasonably demanded.

I don't think BWFCi's "everyone is wank" stuff is anywhere close to right, but we knew going into this season that we hadn't done enough in key areas and we were taking risks on depth. Hopefully we have a much better squad in February than we had in December, because Evatt still clearly wants to try and make some kind of mad play offs push.

For my part I see getting lads in now and settled over the next 6 months as improving our chances of going up next season over getting them in the summer. Will be interesting to see how many are permanent signings.

[GhostoftheBok]

We're not getting Weevers with pace and ability on the ball. They'd be Champo if not Prem players.

I agree, but it's not impossible. There are players that arrive in League One who are clearly better than the division. There are also players who are good enough for the Championship in one system, but only about League Two standard in another.

If the recruitment lot can find a proper all-rounder at centre back then happy days and roll out the red carpet. Ashley Williams arrived at Swansea, on loan from Stockport, in League One. Unicorns do exist and it's up to our lot to find them.

[Worthy4England]

Saying "we just need 9 new players" every window is just stating the bloody obvious for every team that's not pressing the top of the league and of course you then need 9 new players when you go up. Twas ever thus, whatever the system.

My concern isn't whether I understand the points you and Pru are making, I do. And I'm equally as sure you understand the counter. Problem is "perfection" takes longer than most managers get and I think the successful ones are the ones that can cover the imperfect through the occasional compromise on the way, not the ones that stick to a rigid dogma, because they aren't likely to get enough time to wait for perfect to happen.

[Worthy4England]

We're not getting Weevers with pace and ability on the ball. They'd be Champo if not Prem players.

I agree, but it's not impossible. There are players that arrive in League One who are clearly better than the division. There are also players who are good enough for the Championship in one system, but only about League Two standard in another.

If the recruitment lot can find a proper all-rounder at centre back then happy days and roll out the red carpet. Ashley Williams arrived at Swansea, on loan from Stockport, in League One. Unicorns do exist and it's up to our lot to find them.

Neither are we getting the players for a perfect press up front for the same reason. Nor the midfielder who's always in just the right place...sure, we could strike lucky

[Prufrock]

It strikes me that wherever we put the stop line, we're a couple of players short that would follow the same affordability argument that's being used for why we can't afford two CDs that can both pass and tackle.

If the stop line is further forwards/wider than Santos/Aimison, then for me, neither Jones nor John stop enough balls coming into the box.

MJ and Lee at this level, don't have enough command defensively to stop the through balls.

Further forwards, the press isn't generally of sufficient quality...

As I say, I don't really care where Evatt sets the stop line and it's never as cut and dried as we'll just stop them using the front three, but the players than can do that are as mythic as the two CDs that can tackle, head and pass...

So if you can't get the players you need further forwards, and you don't have them at the back, then you leak 1.6 or 2 goals per league game, like we did in August and October, before COVID and a huge injury list was being used as the excuse. (Maybe the excuse then was we didn't have enough "content" downloaded...)

Before we get all Internet binary, I don't want Evatt's head, I want him to sort it out and I don't care which area of the pitch he does it in...

See I agree. I just think it’s more realistic to get some solid defenders than it is to bolster midfield and forward areas sufficiently to be able to play with that higher line effectively.

Evatt might want a style but he doesn’t have the centre halves for it anyway. None of them are exactly Beckenbauer. If we could defend I think we have enough going forwards to win games and we can add to that as we already have.

But I’ve never seen a good team built on a leaky defence.

I’d also cite that the second half of last season was built primarily on not conceding. Even in many games where we had periods of sitting deeper and having to defend our box. We did that a lot. Sure we had possession in spells but many games ended with us just digging in. We weren’t free scoring or even slightly high scorers in that spell. This is often conveniently forgotten. And that back four essentially was held together by Baptiste’s experience and marshalling Santos who had an awful first half. But Baps is no more and Santos is seeing the step up in quality too much and for me our centre back signings were both dubious in the extreme. I don’t think Santos is great either I think with the right partner he could be ok but we don’t have one and even then for such a big unit his command in both boxes is hugely lacking.

The other thing is our full backs defensively obviously have struggled much more in league one than league two.

I agree on the principles but not the analysis of style last season. We did not have many games (if any) in that run where we had to defend the box like we did yesterday, Sure, 10 mins at the end of a game when 1-0 up, but that's not the same as for long spells over 90 mins. The reason we conceded so few was we kept the ball really well, and pressed and squeezed teams for most of the 90 so that they couldn't build regular pressure on our box.

I also broadly agree with Worthy's analysis, in the sense that you pick a particular style and then from there there will be a "stop line" and wherever you put in there will be various trade-offs, but I think we can do that, and that the marginal gains are bigger in midfield than at CB at the moment.

I don't think we're getting a CB who suits this system better than Santos, but I do think we can improve on Johnstone, Baptiste and Aimson, so there's scope there, and I think we'll need one first team CB and two in the squad to go up. No arguments there (it's just for me that's a nice to have now, but need in summer). But in midfield, yesterday we had a kid, a CB and a striker. We can obviously improve easily there. Even with MJ and Lee back we're still one short. That's the priority and would have a much greater effect.

So then there's the point about what if everyone is fit - look at August - October. Here we're straying into counter-factuals, but my view was that:

- we were a little unlucky over a small sample size of games. We didn't score the goals we'd expect from the chances we created, and we conceded more than we'd expect from the chances we conceded. Not merely in a "the players aren't up to it sense", but in a "over a small sample size we've got a bit unlucky there".
- it was early in the season with a new keeper, a new centre-back, and a new shape in midfield (with Sheehan new)
- even then in defence, we had injuries, John missed a lot of games early on, other centre-backs were in and out;
-from Mid Sept to the end of Oct we lost 5 games, all of those teams are in the top 9 currently. I can't remember that any of those games were "unlucky" but as a nearly promoted team with a realistic ambition of top half maybe with a fair wind a hint at the play offs, those results can happen. I mean, Plymouth are better than us right now, e.g.

So I think that a) we would have improved, absent the injury crisis, and b) at that point we were top half (i.e. much higher than we are now) which is fine for where we are on the road.

So you have two questions: what do we prioritise now to improve the most; what do we need to challenge to go up.

On the first one, for reasons I've banged on about at length, it's the midfield. To take Worthy's where do you draw the line question, the gains per pound spent on improving on Johnstone, Thomason and Delf in CM are clearly miles bigger than those on improving on Santos and even Aimson. Even with people coming back, we're only seeing MJ and Lee again this season.

On the second one, assuming everyone is fit for the start of next season, I think we need a keeper, a centre back to play alongside Santos (probably, Aimson might be it if we fix the rest) and then some marginal upgrades elsewhere. I think individually each of the rest would be good enough, but probably all not together. In the way that Dervite was good enough to play in a team that went up, but if we'd had XI at his level we wouldn't. And then depth. That's what's hurt us.

Next year: GK, Jones, Santos, CB, John, MJ, Lee, Sheehan, Kachunga, Charles, Dapo

with good quality as well, some to replace the above, some to cover. I think we'd be top 6. If we don't have the depth and so one of those gets injured and you're into Liam Gordon at RB, sure, no chance.

[GhostoftheBok]

Saying "we just need 9 new players" every window is just stating the bloody obvious for every team that's not pressing the top of the league and of course you then need 9 new players when you go up. Twas ever thus, whatever the system.

My concern isn't whether I understand the points you and Pru are making, I do. And I'm equally as sure you understand the counter. Problem is "perfection" takes longer than most managers get and I think the successful ones are the ones that can cover the imperfect through the occasional compromise on the way, not the ones that stick to a rigid dogma, because they aren't likely to get enough time to wait for perfect to happen.

We need 9-10 new players to be certain of push right at the top of the league playing Evattball. That doesn't mean we can't be a good side in this division with fewer changes and I've said before that I don't think we are a write-off.

We took risks in the summer. At fullback, in goal, by extending deals for older/injury prone players etc. All fairly clearly due to budgets. When you leave off in one window it means you have to do more in another and you absolutely will need really high turn over as you move up divisions. If we were settled in the Prem then 9 players a window would be ridiculous. If you are aiming to rocket up the divisions from bottom to top then it can get messy as you look to rebuild after every promotion.

Evatt got us promoted with less than perfection. Plenty of key players in that promotion team were square pegs - including Doyle and Sarce. He tweaked his style of play to make them work.

If we want to emulate last season (not saying we will, but if we WANT to) then he needs plenty in. If we want to be fairly certain of being a genuinely top side in this division next season, come what may, he needs plenty in. Leicester won the league, but City challenge for the title consistently.

[Prufrock]

We're not getting Weevers with pace and ability on the ball. They'd be Champo if not Prem players.

I agree, but it's not impossible. There are players that arrive in League One who are clearly better than the division. There are also players who are good enough for the Championship in one system, but only about League Two standard in another.

If the recruitment lot can find a proper all-rounder at centre back then happy days and roll out the red carpet. Ashley Williams arrived at Swansea, on loan from Stockport, in League One. Unicorns do exist and it's up to our lot to find them.

Neither are we getting the players for a perfect press up front for the same reason. Nor the midfielder who's always in just the right place...sure, we could strike lucky

Yes. It's probability rather than absolutes. We're more likely to get a midfielder who improves on Johnstone, Delf and Thomason than a CB who improves on Santos/Aimson. Obviously, if Lee, MJ and Sheehan are fit then that might be a different analysis (so there are priorities in this window, and then overall). So, priorities. And then long-term, about the best mix of all of it, depending on where you draw the line on style.

And then there are two threads. Where would you draw the line and so who would you sign (which is nice, but pretty hypothetical)? And then, given what we know about Evatt and where he is likely to draw the line, who do you sign (more realistic).

[GhostoftheBok]

Neither are we getting the players for a perfect press up front for the same reason. Nor the midfielder who's always in just the right place...sure, we could strike lucky

Which is why I've said we need system players. Consistently. For 18 months. If you sign lads who fit the system you are less reliant upon uncovering some diamond of a player.

[GhostoftheBok]

In terms of the 11, if we can support Williams (assuming he comes back properly fit), get settled at right back and bring in a quality '10' I think (with Charles in) we will start to see much better results - before we discuss depth.

If we could also add a "proper" centre half then that kicks it up a notch again.

Dapo, Charles and Kachunga is a good 3 on paper. Properly supported from midfield and fullback they will cause sides real issues. They have pace, work teams, can produce the unexpected and will hopefully fit the system by pressing well and pinning side back with a threat in behind.

[BWFC_Insane]

Saying "we just need 9 new players" every window is just stating the bloody obvious for every team that's not pressing the top of the league and of course you then need 9 new players when you go up. Twas ever thus, whatever the system.

My concern isn't whether I understand the points you and Pru are making, I do. And I'm equally as sure you understand the counter. Problem is "perfection" takes longer than most managers get and I think the successful ones are the ones that can cover the imperfect through the occasional compromise on the way, not the ones that stick to a rigid dogma, because they aren't likely to get enough time to wait for perfect to happen.

We need 9-10 new players to be certain of push right at the top of the league playing Evattball. That doesn't mean we can't be a good side in this division with fewer changes and I've said before that I don't think we are a write-off.

We took risks in the summer. At fullback, in goal, by extending deals for older/injury prone players etc. All fairly clearly due to budgets. When you leave off in one window it means you have to do more in another and you absolutely will need really high turn over as you move up divisions. If we were settled in the Prem then 9 players a window would be ridiculous. If you are aiming to rocket up the divisions from bottom to top then it can get messy as you look to rebuild after every promotion.

Evatt got us promoted with less than perfection. Plenty of key players in that promotion team were square pegs - including Doyle and Sarce. He tweaked his style of play to make them work.

If we want to emulate last season (not saying we will, but if we WANT to) then he needs plenty in. If we want to be fairly certain of being a genuinely top side in this division next season, come what may, he needs plenty in. Leicester won the league, but City challenge for the title consistently.

I think you are missing the fact Evatt was ballooning about not needing more players and that we had a great squad with all his first choice targets in for months. It wasn’t a one off. He did the same last summer. Phoenix took the blame. This time you are saying we had a poor squad Evatt knew it and it’s down to budget. Yet he spent three months telling people we didn’t need players presumably just for confidence.

It’s not true. It’s misjudgement. Evatt signed the wrong players in many cases. Just like last summer. And you can say that without demanding he leaves. He’s young. He’s making mistakes. And will learn. But let’s not recreate narratives. He didn’t have a good window. Other teams did. Without big budgets. And we now have another Jan rebuild. The plus side is we seem better prepared in January and understand what we need more than the summer. And I said on signing them that Johnston and Aimson worried me as centre half recruits and it’s transpired exactly thus. I also said we were too light in midfield. Again. We have seen this be the case.

[Worthy4England]

Neither are we getting the players for a perfect press up front for the same reason. Nor the midfielder who's always in just the right place...sure, we could strike lucky

Which is why I've said we need system players. Consistently. For 18 months. If you sign lads who fit the system you are less reliant upon uncovering some diamond of a player.

That applies to lots of systems, not just this one and as we know "perfect systems" are a bit tricky. I mean, with 9 players, you could (with infinite cash and no barriers), just sign most of the Rotherham team (to keep it "Divisional") - probably need their manager too...

Systems are not a panacea and they all leak, in pretty much any managerial job (not just football).

As a famous philosopher once wrote:

"There'll be a load of compromising,
on the road to my horizion"

All together, now...

[Worthy4England]

Oh and I'm not counting us having some injuries as anything exceptional. If he can only play a back 4 of Jones, Santos, Johnston and John with any success and no excuses, then he truly is fecked up hill and down dale...

[GhostoftheBok]

That applies to lots of systems, not just this one and as we know "perfect systems" are a bit tricky. I mean, with 9 players, you could (with infinite cash and no barriers), just sign most of the Rotherham team (to keep it "Divisional") - probably need their manager too...

If you were signing 9-10 definite starters, but then you'd end up with a dozen or so square pegs as depth players.

We've had this sort of chat a few times, so without going over too much old ground I don't think our 11 is that far off being decent. I do think our squad is a long way off being a top one.

If we want to be good enough to stay up comfortably and push to upper mid table we need 'x'. If we want to be one the best sides in the division, consistently, we need 'y'.

Some of the lads we get in need to be obvious better than the current shirt holder in their position. Not all of them do, though. Some can just be better suited to the system than our current depth option and less of an obvious weakness for opposition sides to target.

[GhostoftheBok]

Oh and I'm not counting us having some injuries as anything exceptional. If he can only play a back 4 of Jones, Santos, Johnston and John with any success and no excuses, then he truly is fecked up hill and down dale...

Losing one of those (other than Jones, as was obvious going into the season) we could have covered for. We had plenty of games where we were missing 3 of his envisioned starting back 4. We've had Izzy at right back. It's pretty normal for side's defending to fall to bits if they can't put out anything like their first choice back four for more than 3 games in a season.

[Worthy4England]

Oh and I'm not counting us having some injuries as anything exceptional. If he can only play a back 4 of Jones, Santos, Johnston and John with any success and no excuses, then he truly is fecked up hill and down dale...

Losing one of those (other than Jones, as was obvious going into the season) we could have covered for. We had plenty of games where we were missing 3 of his envisioned starting back 4. We've had Izzy at right back. It's pretty normal for side's defending to fall to bits if they can't put out anything like their first choice back four for more than 3 games in a season.

Aye, I'm not saying we've not had more than our fair share of "shit happens" and I have no doubt that if your first choice 4 is only available 3 games, it might be a push. Fortunately, we have a system to fall back on.