The Big Shiny World Cup thread

[Worthy4England]

Spain v Germany a good game for the neutral (well sort of) to watch.

Wasn't bad, aye.

[BWFC_Insane]

The more I watch the more I feel if England had a better manager…and yes I agree that Southgate has done an outstanding job of changing the national team culture building a squad spirit and is the best England manager since…I dunno…Venables?

I think he’s been brilliant and taken us to places nobody expected.

So it seems harsh to say ‘if we had a better manager’ but the team is at the point for me where you need that inspired type of manager who can find a way to build around your best players. In the same way that Robson and Venables could find ways to get Gascoigne to play at his peak and build team structures around it in a way that maybe others couldn’t we need to be able to play Foden and Grealish and find ways to build around those technical talents if we really want to move into the next level and win these tournaments. And Southgate for me just cannot do that. Whether anyone can is a huge question and it would be tough to say who the right choice would be. But Southgate feels like a manager who will get us into the latter stages with a relatively cautious and safe team and then we hit the best sides and come unstuck. Some of this is down to limitations in the squad. We clearly are lacking in midfield and we’ve seen a number of teams already show how quality in there makes a massive difference.

But I’m not seeing a team where I look at them and think we are miles off in terms of players. France maybe the strongest player for player. Brazil perhaps the most robust 11. If we could get to a level above where we are I think we’d give either a good game. But I don’t think the setup will allow that as it stands. I don’t think we can beat those sides without getting the best out of some of our more lively attacking talents and find a way to build a team round them. Our ball retention options are too limited against the best sides if we have Sterling, Kane and Saka as a front three and Mount a number 10.

[Worthy4England]

We are always looking for that manager who can take what we have and mould it into that team which we've not had since 1966. You can judge various measures of success or failure within that, be it in your "golden generation" of the 1990's, the media's "golden generation of the noughties, the golden generation we've had/got in the 2010's, early 20's. But we've only managed a couple of semi-finals and a final since then, two in the 90's under Robson/Venables and two in the late 10's under Southgate.

As said, I might be tempted after this season, if we crash out ignominiously, to look around. I'm not sure who we think might be candidates though (ones we might actually get, rather than the "someone like Guardiola" variety? If he gets us through to another semi/final, he'd be pretty difficult to displace IMO.

As to the line-up, the problems I see are slightly different but lead to the same place. Mount isn't doing much, followed by Rice in an attacking sense and if Bellingham has an off-day and Kane can't quite decide what his job is, then the middle of the park is "missing," and it makes us much easier to defend against as they just sit and laugh at the middle of the park...(which was pretty much where the "Euro's thread" put the problem.

Both Foden and Grealish have started a couple of games for England this year (although typically not in the same games), not sure the results have been outstanding compared to the norm, whilst being "no worse"...

I guess where I'm at, is that to win anything, we're going to need a fair amount of luck too. We had a 0-0 in 1966, first game, I doubt people were calling for Ramsay's head straight away...

[Bruce Rioja]

Eddie Howe is the next England manager. Has to be.

[boltonboris]

It's a good shout, but top end Club Level football, is more attractive than an International job nowadays, so not sure he'd take it.

Also not sure the FA would pay what it would take for Newcastle to release him

[Worthy4England]

Yes to both (good shout and doubtful it'll happen). The days when England could offer quite a lot more than any one Club, I think are in yesterday...

[BWFC_Insane]

Yeah it’s a great shout and probably the best choice. But as said it feels now like a young manager would not want it as the club game is more lucrative and definitely better to build your career in.

Not that I massively like him. Quite the opposite. But I sort of wonder what Harry Redknapp might do (ten years younger Harry of course) with this group of players and his experience and ability to obviously build teams round these sorts of great attacking players.

Obviously he’s finished now but I feel like a more experienced coming to the end of their career type who has seen a lot might be better. They’d need to not rip up the strides Southgate has made so needs to be a good fit. I guess Southgate has done the klinsmann job we are now looking for our Joachim Low…

[Worthy4England]

Jochim Low was 2 years older than Eddie Howe is now, when he took over the German side - hardly coming to the end of his career...

Wonder what Thomas Tuchel might be up to and whether he could do "owt" with them

[TANGODANCER]

All it takes is for us to win the World Cup and Southgate will become the G.O.A.T. La Donna Imobile...

[Prufrock]

The more I watch the more I feel if England had a better manager…and yes I agree that Southgate has done an outstanding job of changing the national team culture building a squad spirit and is the best England manager since…I dunno…Venables?

I think he’s been brilliant and taken us to places nobody expected.

So it seems harsh to say ‘if we had a better manager’ but the team is at the point for me where you need that inspired type of manager who can find a way to build around your best players. In the same way that Robson and Venables could find ways to get Gascoigne to play at his peak and build team structures around it in a way that maybe others couldn’t we need to be able to play Foden and Grealish and find ways to build around those technical talents if we really want to move into the next level and win these tournaments. And Southgate for me just cannot do that. Whether anyone can is a huge question and it would be tough to say who the right choice would be. But Southgate feels like a manager who will get us into the latter stages with a relatively cautious and safe team and then we hit the best sides and come unstuck. Some of this is down to limitations in the squad. We clearly are lacking in midfield and we’ve seen a number of teams already show how quality in there makes a massive difference.

But I’m not seeing a team where I look at them and think we are miles off in terms of players. France maybe the strongest player for player. Brazil perhaps the most robust 11. If we could get to a level above where we are I think we’d give either a good game. But I don’t think the setup will allow that as it stands. I don’t think we can beat those sides without getting the best out of some of our more lively attacking talents and find a way to build a team round them. Our ball retention options are too limited against the best sides if we have Sterling, Kane and Saka as a front three and Mount a number 10.

Some of us have been saying this for 4 years !

He's done well at the togetherness side, but being brutal we need a manager not a cheerleader. His only previous managerial "success" was getting Middlesbrough relegated when they were a well established Prem side. He's just not up to it.

Howe and Potter would've been great shouts, but both would be v unlikely to take it now, I think.

Tuchel is interesting, as is the Pochetino link. Neither guaranteed to be interested but can't hurt to ask! Poch probably the more likely, but I think international management would suit Tuchel. He seems to fall out with people when he has to work with them day in day out, and part of the reason it fell apart at Chelsea was he didn't want to be involved in signings.

I'd still be whining he was to cautious but at least he'd be good at it!

[Prufrock]

Brazil stuttering against a decent side at 0-0. Their manager wants to win the game, makes attacking subs and it pays off.

It transmits to players. When your manager is cautious and timid, it's no surprise the players play that way. And it'll sometimes be enough to get you through a game you otherwise mightn't, but you're not going to win anything.

[TANGODANCER]

And now it's time for Portugal v Uraguay: Ronaldo the Qualcast bombadier V Gnasher Luis Suárez (Should be fun...

[Bruce Rioja]

It's a good shout, but top end Club Level football, is more attractive than an International job nowadays, so not sure he'd take it.

Also not sure the FA would pay what it would take for Newcastle to release him

Hear what you're saying, but let's not forget that Howe left Burnley to go back to the then tin-pot Bournemouth.

He strikes me as being a 'football man', who'd probably welcome a crack at international level. He certainly knows how to put a side together and how to bring the best out of key players.

[BWFC_Insane]

The more I watch the more I feel if England had a better manager…and yes I agree that Southgate has done an outstanding job of changing the national team culture building a squad spirit and is the best England manager since…I dunno…Venables?

I think he’s been brilliant and taken us to places nobody expected.

So it seems harsh to say ‘if we had a better manager’ but the team is at the point for me where you need that inspired type of manager who can find a way to build around your best players. In the same way that Robson and Venables could find ways to get Gascoigne to play at his peak and build team structures around it in a way that maybe others couldn’t we need to be able to play Foden and Grealish and find ways to build around those technical talents if we really want to move into the next level and win these tournaments. And Southgate for me just cannot do that. Whether anyone can is a huge question and it would be tough to say who the right choice would be. But Southgate feels like a manager who will get us into the latter stages with a relatively cautious and safe team and then we hit the best sides and come unstuck. Some of this is down to limitations in the squad. We clearly are lacking in midfield and we’ve seen a number of teams already show how quality in there makes a massive difference.

But I’m not seeing a team where I look at them and think we are miles off in terms of players. France maybe the strongest player for player. Brazil perhaps the most robust 11. If we could get to a level above where we are I think we’d give either a good game. But I don’t think the setup will allow that as it stands. I don’t think we can beat those sides without getting the best out of some of our more lively attacking talents and find a way to build a team round them. Our ball retention options are too limited against the best sides if we have Sterling, Kane and Saka as a front three and Mount a number 10.

Some of us have been saying this for 4 years !

He's done well at the togetherness side, but being brutal we need a manager not a cheerleader. His only previous managerial "success" was getting Middlesbrough relegated when they were a well established Prem side. He's just not up to it.

Howe and Potter would've been great shouts, but both would be v unlikely to take it now, I think.

Tuchel is interesting, as is the Pochetino link. Neither guaranteed to be interested but can't hurt to ask! Poch probably the more likely, but I think international management would suit Tuchel. He seems to fall out with people when he has to work with them day in day out, and part of the reason it fell apart at Chelsea was he didn't want to be involved in signings.

I'd still be whining he was to cautious but at least he'd be good at it!

I think given he’s been better than any manager in the two decades or so before that it does show that there is a difference in international management. I think he’s come to the end now after this tournament though.

I’m not sure we’d go down the non English route again though suspect Tuchel would as you say be quite good. Just can’t see it being Pochettino. Dunno why just don’t see it.

[Prufrock]

Certainly wouldn't rule it out but it seems unlikely to me. He seems to love it there and must back himself to win trophies/get to the CL. And you don't get many shots at that.

I reckon for most English managers unless at the end of their career, sadly the England job is now somewhere below the big 7 jobs (putting Newcastle in there) and above the rest.

[Prufrock]

The more I watch the more I feel if England had a better manager…and yes I agree that Southgate has done an outstanding job of changing the national team culture building a squad spirit and is the best England manager since…I dunno…Venables?

I think he’s been brilliant and taken us to places nobody expected.

So it seems harsh to say ‘if we had a better manager’ but the team is at the point for me where you need that inspired type of manager who can find a way to build around your best players. In the same way that Robson and Venables could find ways to get Gascoigne to play at his peak and build team structures around it in a way that maybe others couldn’t we need to be able to play Foden and Grealish and find ways to build around those technical talents if we really want to move into the next level and win these tournaments. And Southgate for me just cannot do that. Whether anyone can is a huge question and it would be tough to say who the right choice would be. But Southgate feels like a manager who will get us into the latter stages with a relatively cautious and safe team and then we hit the best sides and come unstuck. Some of this is down to limitations in the squad. We clearly are lacking in midfield and we’ve seen a number of teams already show how quality in there makes a massive difference.

But I’m not seeing a team where I look at them and think we are miles off in terms of players. France maybe the strongest player for player. Brazil perhaps the most robust 11. If we could get to a level above where we are I think we’d give either a good game. But I don’t think the setup will allow that as it stands. I don’t think we can beat those sides without getting the best out of some of our more lively attacking talents and find a way to build a team round them. Our ball retention options are too limited against the best sides if we have Sterling, Kane and Saka as a front three and Mount a number 10.

Some of us have been saying this for 4 years !

He's done well at the togetherness side, but being brutal we need a manager not a cheerleader. His only previous managerial "success" was getting Middlesbrough relegated when they were a well established Prem side. He's just not up to it.

Howe and Potter would've been great shouts, but both would be v unlikely to take it now, I think.

Tuchel is interesting, as is the Pochetino link. Neither guaranteed to be interested but can't hurt to ask! Poch probably the more likely, but I think international management would suit Tuchel. He seems to fall out with people when he has to work with them day in day out, and part of the reason it fell apart at Chelsea was he didn't want to be involved in signings.

I'd still be whining he was to cautious but at least he'd be good at it!

I think given he’s been better than any manager in the two decades or so before that it does show that there is a difference in international management. I think he’s come to the end now after this tournament though.

I’m not sure we’d go down the non English route again though suspect Tuchel would as you say be quite good. Just can’t see it being Pochettino. Dunno why just don’t see it.

He's not even the best manager in the last 2 !

Discounting Sam, there have only been 5 in the past two decades!

He's certainly had more success than any of them, but I'm not sure that translates to he's a better manager rather than it's a better team/he's had more luck.

Either Southgate is a better manager than them, or this is a better team (or both). Every single one of them has a much better record then him outside of the England job. By miles and miles and miles. Even McClaren who was awful had a much better record then him at Middlesbrough where he got into Europe (can't remember how) before Southgate promptly got them relegated.

It's possibly he has something particularly suited to international football, but I'm just not sure "being a good egg" really cuts it.

Instead, it seems much more likely to me that the current players, if not as stellar individually, are more suited to playing international football. We spent a full decade trying to get Lampard and Gerrard into the same midfield, with players in a high tempo league relying on foreigners for technical ability, and having 12% possession as soon as we played anyone good.

It doesn't seem surprising to me that as our players play in a league which is more and more possession based, we're able to compete internationally. I'm not saying it necessarily translates to L1, but you can't win anything at the top level if you don't have players who can keep the ball. That was never going to be Gareth Barry.

I also don't think you can rule out luck either. Sven' teams lost to a great Brazil team and twice (on pens) to a very, very good Portugal team. Southgate has only beaten one top team at a major tournament, and that was a very ropey Germany. Knocked out to two good, but by no means great teams.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think he is more suited to working in international management and with this sort of group of younger players. As England manager he’s been miles better than what came before. For me it’s not even a question or close.

You go back to Venables before I think we had better.

Robson before that.

England haven’t had many decent managers since Sir Alf. And frankly I’ve learned to ignore their club records as it is a completely different skill set.

There is an element of matching the right manager with the right time too as you say. Southgate suited this group. Robson suited the brief window he had to play three at the back and get a genius in Gascoigne playing. Before that he struggled with too workmanlike a side. Venables was given a team of technical talents to try and weave into a structure at the time and was perfect for him.

I think now it’s clear that a better football brain could do more with this group. Also possible they make it worse. But Southgate I suspect knows his time is up - and if he wins the thing he might as well go out an immortal.

[Worthy4England]

For me, key outcomes for England Manager are (in order)

1) Win World Cup
2) Win Euro Championships
3) Win Nations League (although how long this one will be around, I dunno)

Any manager not achieving one of those things has failed in their mission, however you might want to spin it, how good/bad they are and whatever circumstances you might want to wrap around that. You're talking mitigations and degrees of failure - it's almost irrelevant whether they're fair or not...

I think unless Southgate wins it, it's probably time to have a look around after this tournament, but a couple of things...He's signed a Contract extension until 2024, a year ago, based on the fact we'd qualified (how low is that bar set?) and should he get to the latter stages (for the sake of the conversation, let's say quarter finals, because it's more contentious than maybe the semi's) would the FA see that as a decent outcome, based on the fact they signed an extension to his contract because we qualified...

[Worthy4England]

Anyhow - they've just committed a crime, much larger than anything related LBGTQ+ and workers rights. Fcking Chesney Hawkes is doing the "half time" entertainment. That should be going straight to the Court of Human Rights...

[Hoboh]

This afternoons pick, Ecuador v Senegal I reckon.