Snog, Marry, Avoid: Summer 2023 Transfer Window

[BWFC_Insane]

^^ Not really as your fullbacks overlap meaning you have two left rather than three. Thought usually needs a DM.

Well you can spin it whatever way you want, that's part of the overcomplication point. Do you then need two better CB's to make up for the fact there's no longer three because the LB/RB have overlapped? Do you then need a better DM to cover in there and if you do, have you then effectively lost someone supporting the forward momentum? So there's all sorts of permutations, none of which will conclude 433 or 452 is "better" or easier...

As I say, for me it doesn't come down to formation specifically - did we get enough of the right balls into the front men from right/left and centre - and the answer is "probably not"...

I don't think any system is superior to another per se its how you use it.

My problem is fundamentally the way we play combined with the system makes the market we can shop in for players much smaller than other sides. We need very specific players for roles that have huge requirements on them.

I'm not arguing one system is better - merely that the combination of a desire to press high, and play possession based football with a 352 does make finding players more difficult for us than it would in a different system or this system but a more simplified way of playing.

Barnsley for example play the same system but their style of football means they can accommodate a wider variety of player.

[GhostoftheBok]

More of our current squad fit this system than the ones being mooted.

There might be more winger going, but that doesn't make them easier to get. There are more clubs after them and they cost a lot more in both fees and wages. Barring getting a wonder loan you're more likely to find an exceptional wingback in budget than an exceptional winger.

I find the suggestion that finding a suitable wingback is impossible odd, when we've had Fossey and Bradley in already. Equally we've only really had one really top winger in Dapo, so isn't the "impossible" role beating the "easy" one 2-1 at this point?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Surely the only thing that matters is getting players in that can execute the plan well. Whatever that plan is and the fact there will always be some variation to that plan. A formation isn't a plan, merely part of the execution of the plan. I wouldn't get hung up on formations and stick to finding players that have attributes to do the bits of the plan not working or meeting expectations.

I think there is a discussion to be had as to whether the plan is unnecessarily convoluted at times. If we're saying players need half a season to start looking like a footballer. then we're always going to be catching up. If we're talking top 2 then we need to be on it and stay on it.

[Worthy4England]

^^ Not really as your fullbacks overlap meaning you have two left rather than three. Thought usually needs a DM.

Well you can spin it whatever way you want, that's part of the overcomplication point. Do you then need two better CB's to make up for the fact there's no longer three because the LB/RB have overlapped? Do you then need a better DM to cover in there and if you do, have you then effectively lost someone supporting the forward momentum? So there's all sorts of permutations, none of which will conclude 433 or 452 is "better" or easier...

As I say, for me it doesn't come down to formation specifically - did we get enough of the right balls into the front men from right/left and centre - and the answer is "probably not"...

I don't think any system is superior to another per se its how you use it.

My problem is fundamentally the way we play combined with the system makes the market we can shop in for players much smaller than other sides. We need very specific players for roles that have huge requirements on them.

I'm not arguing one system is better - merely that the combination of a desire to press high, and play possession based football with a 352 does make finding players more difficult for us than it would in a different system or this system but a more simplified way of playing.

Barnsley for example play the same system but their style of football means they can accommodate a wider variety of player.

That's sort of "as maybe," fortunately, you and I aren't doing the shopping. Whether IE ultimately succeeds or not, his ability to get the right players for the system is all part and parcel.

I think we often show that we have the players who can press high and play possession football (a reasonable proportion of the time) so I'm less concerned we're missing those bits and I'm fairly sure as Ghost says we've tried to recruit for those style of play type options. We saw that we were also able to limit the number of goals we concede, which is part and parcel of having possession and pressing high...The bit we're missing is the "opening up their defense"...

I'm not yet convinced this is the way we'll best go through the Divisions. Nor that it's entertaining. Just that it's done pretty well for us so far. But you're only as good as your last match etc.

[BWFC_Insane]

More of our current squad fit this system than the ones being mooted.

There might be more winger going, but that doesn't make them easier to get. There are more clubs after them and they cost a lot more in both fees and wages. Barring getting a wonder loan you're more likely to find an exceptional wingback in budget than an exceptional winger.

I find the suggestion that finding a suitable wingback is impossible odd, when we've had Fossey and Bradley in already. Equally we've only really had one really top winger in Dapo, so isn't the "impossible" role beating the "easy" one 2-1 at this point?

Bradley though wasn't good enough in an attacking sense. That's the issue. If we look at our inability to score enough goals and create enough chances - Bradley as our major outlet wasn't good enough in the final third. That's not to criticise him. I'm asking realistically where the wing backs who are good enough to be delivering a wingers output (which is what we need) are?

[boltonboris]

More of our current squad fit this system than the ones being mooted.

There might be more winger going, but that doesn't make them easier to get. There are more clubs after them and they cost a lot more in both fees and wages. Barring getting a wonder loan you're more likely to find an exceptional wingback in budget than an exceptional winger.

I find the suggestion that finding a suitable wingback is impossible odd, when we've had Fossey and Bradley in already. Equally we've only really had one really top winger in Dapo, so isn't the "impossible" role beating the "easy" one 2-1 at this point?

Bradley though wasn't good enough in an attacking sense. That's the issue. If we look at our inability to score enough goals and create enough chances - Bradley as our major outlet wasn't good enough in the final third. That's not to criticise him. I'm asking realistically where the wing backs who are good enough to be delivering a wingers output (which is what we need) are?

Playing at a higher level, presumably

[sonicthewhite]

21 pages and we still haven't signed anyone. Boooooo, this is crap, Evatt out!

[Worthy4England]

More of our current squad fit this system than the ones being mooted.

There might be more winger going, but that doesn't make them easier to get. There are more clubs after them and they cost a lot more in both fees and wages. Barring getting a wonder loan you're more likely to find an exceptional wingback in budget than an exceptional winger.

I find the suggestion that finding a suitable wingback is impossible odd, when we've had Fossey and Bradley in already. Equally we've only really had one really top winger in Dapo, so isn't the "impossible" role beating the "easy" one 2-1 at this point?

Bradley though wasn't good enough in an attacking sense. That's the issue. If we look at our inability to score enough goals and create enough chances - Bradley as our major outlet wasn't good enough in the final third. That's not to criticise him. I'm asking realistically where the wing backs who are good enough to be delivering a wingers output (which is what we need) are?

I don't think that's the issue. Just a part of it. Isn't a significant point that's being made, that we should not just be relying on wingers/wingbacks to "provide?" and certainly not only on one of them - in part because they never will? Just because we have a wing-back system, we should be expecting that the more central MF also provide - and I think the point being made, is that they didn't anywhere near enough.

Our highest number of league assists was Gethin with 5. Ipswich had 4 players higher than that (not just 2). Plymouth had 4, Sheffield had 4, Barnsley had 4 - you get the drift

Edit: If I add our top 4 players for assists up - Gethin, Bradley, and two of Vik, Morley, Williams - they add up to the same total as Ipswich's leaded assist provider Leif Davis on 14...Slight problem is, Leif Davies cost over £1m if wiki is to be believed.

[BWFC_Insane]

More of our current squad fit this system than the ones being mooted.

There might be more winger going, but that doesn't make them easier to get. There are more clubs after them and they cost a lot more in both fees and wages. Barring getting a wonder loan you're more likely to find an exceptional wingback in budget than an exceptional winger.

I find the suggestion that finding a suitable wingback is impossible odd, when we've had Fossey and Bradley in already. Equally we've only really had one really top winger in Dapo, so isn't the "impossible" role beating the "easy" one 2-1 at this point?

Bradley though wasn't good enough in an attacking sense. That's the issue. If we look at our inability to score enough goals and create enough chances - Bradley as our major outlet wasn't good enough in the final third. That's not to criticise him. I'm asking realistically where the wing backs who are good enough to be delivering a wingers output (which is what we need) are?

I don't think that's the issue. Just a part of it. Isn't a significant point that's being made, that we should not just be relying on wingers/wingbacks to "provide?" and certainly not only on one of them - in part because they never will? Just because we have a wing-back system, we should be expecting that the more central MF also provide - and I think the point being made, is that they didn't anywhere near enough.

Our highest number of league assists was Gethin with 5. Ipswich had 4 players higher than that (not just 2). Plymouth had 4, Sheffield had 4, Barnsley had 4 - you get the drift

I think my thesis is that against the 'low block' or high press then low block - you're basically whistling in the wind expecting goals to come through the middle at this level. If we had Bernardo Silva, Gundogan and Rodri then maybe - but I think we're very unlikely to unlock those teams (the ones we struggle to beat) through midfield brilliance. Though moving the ball quicker and more accurately might open spaces out wide quicker.

But for me our issue is simple. You get the wing back involved and our consistent move is a wide centre back over or under lapping. Then pulling the ball back.

If you had a winger who could beat a man plus an overlapping full back chances are your ability to create a chance is higher. Because lets compare Bradley - Toal - Dempsey in a 352. To Dapo-John-Dempsey in a 433.

Bradley probably isn't too often beating his man inside and curling one in. He can do this of course but its not a regular thing. He can then go on the outside but his crossing isn't great so pulls it back into areas that he hopes we can get on the end of. Toal isn't great at getting beyond his wing back and if we're honest only Jones really is. So Toal offers little chance creation possibility. Dempsey could play a nice triangle but against a low block its mostly not happening. He is therefore hoping to pick up the pull back.

In the 433 example Dapo can cut inside and score. With frequency. So the opposition have to guard against that. He can also go on the outside occasionally and can deliver the ball. More often he would have the full back to either take it and cross it or add the decoy. The advantage being that Iredale or John or most fullbacks overlapping can cross a ball better than Toal or Johnston for sure...Jones less so but still. Finally if Dapo cuts inside he gives Dempsey the better option of a one two or move that does open the defence up and we can of course play the extra pass to then release the full back.

I'm not arguing we switch systems btw - merely highlighting the pressure you put on your wing backs to be able to do a lot.

Its something I've always felt. If we had a 343 in the locker with wide attacking players (could be wing backs playing different role) i genuinely thing that would give us more options for games where teams do what Barnsley did.

[boltonboris]

2 Keepers
1 Right Wing Back
1 Central / attacking Midfielder

Those are the priorities to be done as soon as is humanly possible. The issue like everybody has said, is how do we IMPROVE what we have? For now, get those missing gaps sorted

[Worthy4England]

More of our current squad fit this system than the ones being mooted.

There might be more winger going, but that doesn't make them easier to get. There are more clubs after them and they cost a lot more in both fees and wages. Barring getting a wonder loan you're more likely to find an exceptional wingback in budget than an exceptional winger.

I find the suggestion that finding a suitable wingback is impossible odd, when we've had Fossey and Bradley in already. Equally we've only really had one really top winger in Dapo, so isn't the "impossible" role beating the "easy" one 2-1 at this point?

Bradley though wasn't good enough in an attacking sense. That's the issue. If we look at our inability to score enough goals and create enough chances - Bradley as our major outlet wasn't good enough in the final third. That's not to criticise him. I'm asking realistically where the wing backs who are good enough to be delivering a wingers output (which is what we need) are?

I don't think that's the issue. Just a part of it. Isn't a significant point that's being made, that we should not just be relying on wingers/wingbacks to "provide?" and certainly not only on one of them - in part because they never will? Just because we have a wing-back system, we should be expecting that the more central MF also provide - and I think the point being made, is that they didn't anywhere near enough.

Our highest number of league assists was Gethin with 5. Ipswich had 4 players higher than that (not just 2). Plymouth had 4, Sheffield had 4, Barnsley had 4 - you get the drift

I think my thesis is that against the 'low block' or high press then low block - you're basically whistling in the wind expecting goals to come through the middle at this level. If we had Bernardo Silva, Gundogan and Rodri then maybe - but I think we're very unlikely to unlock those teams (the ones we struggle to beat) through midfield brilliance. Though moving the ball quicker and more accurately might open spaces out wide quicker.

But for me our issue is simple. You get the wing back involved and our consistent move is a wide centre back over or under lapping. Then pulling the ball back.

If you had a winger who could beat a man plus an overlapping full back chances are your ability to create a chance is higher. Because lets compare Bradley - Toal - Dempsey in a 352. To Dapo-John-Dempsey in a 433.

Bradley probably isn't too often beating his man inside and curling one in. He can do this of course but its not a regular thing. He can then go on the outside but his crossing isn't great so pulls it back into areas that he hopes we can get on the end of. Toal isn't great at getting beyond his wing back and if we're honest only Jones really is. So Toal offers little chance creation possibility. Dempsey could play a nice triangle but against a low block its mostly not happening. He is therefore hoping to pick up the pull back.

In the 433 example Dapo can cut inside and score. With frequency. So the opposition have to guard against that. He can also go on the outside occasionally and can deliver the ball. More often he would have the full back to either take it and cross it or add the decoy. The advantage being that Iredale or John or most fullbacks overlapping can cross a ball better than Toal or Johnston for sure...Jones less so but still. Finally if Dapo cuts inside he gives Dempsey the better option of a one two or move that does open the defence up and we can of course play the extra pass to then release the full back.

I'm not arguing we switch systems btw - merely highlighting the pressure you put on your wing backs to be able to do a lot.

Its something I've always felt. If we had a 343 in the locker with wide attacking players (could be wing backs playing different role) i genuinely thing that would give us more options for games where teams do what Barnsley did.

We don't have Silva, Gundogan and Rodri, but the opposition doesn't have premiership level defenders either. But I get the point, Insano. The second highest "assister" in L1 was Barry Bannan, who was likely nearer the middle than the flanks for the most part - he's not Silva, Gundogan or Rodri either, and when you compare what we might be able to afford and it's probably not Bannan...

When we look at Davis and his 14 assists, that would still only equate to 14% of Ipswich's goals...Bannan, similar 14% of Sheffield Weds goals. Both expensive players, probably too good for this League and our budget. So we have to spread the load for creating, for me...

If you look at Dapo on assists (bearing in mind we played him all over the shop) - he was on about 0.14 per 90 - so in the same place as Gethin, Iredale and John...The previous season he was at 0.08.

If we look at the mop haired one, he was at 0.27 assists per 90, that translates to 10 assists over the "full 90's" Bradley played (doesn't quite make 11) vs 4 for Bradley - certainly worth having, but it's still only 6 goals over a season and they aren't all going to improve you by 3 points, but you would hope for some extra points off that return.

[Worthy4England]

2 Keepers
1 Right Wing Back
1 Central / attacking Midfielder

Those are the priorities to be done as soon as is humanly possible. The issue like everybody has said, is how do we IMPROVE what we have? For now, get those missing gaps sorted

Certainly the right starting place IMO. Albeit you could still envisage that one or more of those might end up being a loanee...

[GhostoftheBok]

If you think Bradley wasn't good enough then you're right, we won't sign anyone you think is good enough.

I mean, you're wrong; but you're not going to be happy with any signing.

[BWFC_Insane]

If you think Bradley wasn't good enough then you're right, we won't sign anyone you think is good enough.

I mean, you're wrong; but you're not going to be happy with any signing.

Its not that he wasn't good enough for us. its that we couldn't create enough chances with him at RWB and in the system we play...

Because what we need at wing back is exceptional attacking players. Barnsley showed how to stop us. We have a season where we failed consistently against teams that play a certain way.

If we want to go up then we need better attacking end product all round but especially from the wing backs who have to also be our main outlets....

[GhostoftheBok]

I think you're looking at what we needed in last year's team to get us promoted, but what I'm trying to get at is that that was a holistic issue. Yes, if we wanted to go up last season fixing one thing it would have probably been some kind of insane outlet out wide. Last season ain't next, as the yanks would have it.

Bradley would have been plenty if we'd had him supported properly from midfield and that wide centre half position. He benefitted immensely from Jones in there, but obviously Toal offers other benefits.

We aren't looking for someone to carry the team, we are looking for a handful of players who can lift the overall performances. Bradley could very easily have been part of a team like that, as could Lord Fossey of No-knees.

In a team that includes a proper 10, balance on the opposite flank, ball carrying in midfield (so it's not a case of "Kick the Irish kid and they can't break a press") and options in the wide centre half positions then those wingbacks don't need to be current Premier League players - which at the moment is what you're saying we need.

If you really think that this system can't work without Premier League level wingbacks then I understand why you want to switch systems.

[boltonboris]

If you think Bradley wasn't good enough then you're right, we won't sign anyone you think is good enough.

I mean, you're wrong; but you're not going to be happy with any signing.

Its not that he wasn't good enough for us. its that we couldn't create enough chances with him at RWB and in the system we play...

Because what we need at wing back is exceptional attacking players. Barnsley showed how to stop us. We have a season where we failed consistently against teams that play a certain way.

If we want to go up then we need better attacking end product all round but especially from the wing backs who have to also be our main outlets....

Bradley was hamstrung against Barnsley due to our midfield being static and our forwards being out of sorts - Bradley at Full back, with a wide forward ahead of him would have been better and that system is how you beat Barnsley.

The 3-0 win in January gave us too much confidence in a system that had pretty much stopped working against a back 4 - And that's because they had a man sent off after about 8 minutes

[Worthy4England]

We need to move off the notion that only RWB can create chances. It's a complete red herring.

[GhostoftheBok]

We need to move off the notion that only RWB can create chances. It's a complete red herring.

Same with the notion that there was a huge tactical issue against Barnsley.

Barnsley struggled to contain MK Dons, but contained us. The reason was pretty simple. Dons could carry the ball through their press and we couldn't.

It's not tactics, it's personnel.

"Kick Bradley and press the ball to Toal. He'll give it back to us on his own."

Dead simple stuff.

Put Maghoma and Eisa in that 11 and we utterly destroy Barnsley. It's not even close.

[Worthy4England]

We need to move off the notion that only RWB can create chances. It's a complete red herring.

Same with the notion that there was a huge tactical issue against Barnsley.

Barnsley struggled to contain MK Dons, but contained us. The reason was pretty simple. Dons could carry the ball through their press and we couldn't.

It's not tactics, it's personnel.

"Kick Bradley and press the ball to Toal. He'll give it back to us on his own."

Dead simple stuff.

Put Maghoma and Eisa in that 11 and we utterly destroy Barnsley. It's not even close.

TBF, I think we have to move off the notion that tactics on paper without the right personnel is a great answer either. We don't and didn't have Maghoma and Eisa, so we had to try the best way for the players we do have....

[GhostoftheBok]

TBF, I think we have to move off the notion that tactics on paper without the right personnel is a great answer either. We don't and didn't have Maghoma and Eisa, so we had to try the best way for the players we do have....

The kind of play Evatt is working on isn't something you can switch on and off. It takes months of intensive work on the training pitches. You won't always have the right answers to each problem as you develop.

Right not we have lots of it right, hence being very good. We still lack pieces, but you can't just play another way until they show up and then do it. As with City, Arsenal, Liverpool and any other team that plays this kind of tactically intense style - you stick with it and improve personnel as and when you can. Tweaks, yes; but not total changes in approach.

Barnsley judged our weaknesses and fair play to them. Hopefully next season we've made the changes needed and teams will have to try and find new weaknesses.