Snog, Marry, Avoid: Summer 2023 Transfer Window

[BWFC_Insane]

We need those qualities in a starter.

Personal view, but I think we need better one-on-one ability than Sads offers. He's at his best clearing his feet and striking the ball early. We need someone who can dribble past an isolated defender and get into the truly dangerous cut-back positions on the byline.

Kane Wilson is being linked with Derby, which has a lot of people upset.

Yes ideally but I think we can sacrifice beat a man skills if they can cross a ball with a yard of space.

If Wilson goes to Derby it would be a big kick in the nuts and would be very interested to know what really went on here with that one.

[GhostoftheBok]

Yes ideally but I think we can sacrifice beat a man skills if they can cross a ball with a yard of space.

If Wilson goes to Derby it would be a big kick in the nuts and would be very interested to know what really went on here with that one.

Suboptimal, yeah.

The two players I thought could massively improve us down that side (depending on what Evatt wanted) were Kane Wilson and Joe Ward. If Derby end up with both it'll be a huge statement by them.

Other sides are fixing first 11 issues faster than we are, but they're spending heavily to do it.

[BWFC_Insane]

Yes ideally but I think we can sacrifice beat a man skills if they can cross a ball with a yard of space.

If Wilson goes to Derby it would be a big kick in the nuts and would be very interested to know what really went on here with that one.

Suboptimal, yeah.

The two players I thought could massively improve us down that side (depending on what Evatt wanted) were Kane Wilson and Joe Ward. If Derby end up with both it'll be a huge statement by them.

Other sides are fixing first 11 issues faster than we are, but they're spending heavily to do it.

But that’s the rub isn’t it? It’s fine to say we are doing things the right way when just a decent finish is suffice. But when you are targeting the top 2 it relies on having those better players and not allowing rivals to assimilate them.

I hope that we can strike a balance. Evatt has to take a risk. Early Allardyce was like this. Don’t sign marquee players as it can upset things. He soon changed when realities hit home.

[GhostoftheBok]

But that’s the rub isn’t it? It’s fine to say we are doing things the right way when just a decent finish is suffice. But when you are targeting the top 2 it relies on having those better players and not allowing rivals to assimilate them.

I hope that we can strike a balance. Evatt has to take a risk. Early Allardyce was like this. Don’t sign marquee players as it can upset things. He soon changed when realities hit home.

...and it was radically unsustainable once he made the shift.

We have essentially borrowed money from the fans to have a crack at the market. That's a one time gig. We can't go to that well again, so we have to use it as wisely as possible and get the maximum value from it.

If Derby don't go up this season they are screwed, so they'll throw whatever they can at it before points deductions and other issues come in.

You can complain about it, but there's literally no other realistic option than remaining sustainable.

Markham and friends will be working their arses off to get the right players in at the right price. However, if the choice is a play-off push or overspending then I'll take the play-offs every time.

It's pointless throwing our entire budget at one player when we need three. It's also much more dangerous, as your point of failure is then catastrophic.

I'm happy to let them have the time they need to get the work done.

[BWFC_Insane]

But that’s the rub isn’t it? It’s fine to say we are doing things the right way when just a decent finish is suffice. But when you are targeting the top 2 it relies on having those better players and not allowing rivals to assimilate them.

I hope that we can strike a balance. Evatt has to take a risk. Early Allardyce was like this. Don’t sign marquee players as it can upset things. He soon changed when realities hit home.

...and it was radically unsustainable once he made the shift.

We have essentially borrowed money from the fans to have a crack at the market. That's a one time gig. We can't go to that well again, so we have to use it as wisely as possible and get the maximum value from it.

If Derby don't go up this season they are screwed, so they'll throw whatever they can at it before points deductions and other issues come in.

You can complain about it, but there's literally no other realistic option than remaining sustainable.

Markham and friends will be working their arses off to get the right players in at the right price. However, if the choice is a play-off push or overspending then I'll take the play-offs every time.

It's pointless throwing our entire budget at one player when we need three. It's also much more dangerous, as your point of failure is then catastrophic.

I'm happy to let them have the time they need to get the work done.

But that wasn’t the case. Allardyce inherited a club perilously close to financial oblivion. He had to sell assets and rebuild with little. The success that season meant financially the club was more stable. But that stability relied on staying up. And his only summer singing was Henrik Pedersen before over time realising that the premiership would need more.

Allardyce and his signings weren’t unsustainable till he started to want to spend significant sums towards the end of his time here. And that in reality the point it really became unsustainable was when his successors spent huge sums just in increasingly desperate attempts to keep us up there. Even then a level of sustainability was secured had we stayed up.

We are borrowing via the bond and Lucocks Swiss business interests. Both need paying back. And that plan is entirely predicated on promotion. It’s where you need bravery to get it right. You have to make big calls. It’s like Allardyce’s first full season except we are relatively better resourced. There is pressure to do it like it or not. And that means potentially having to go places we haven’t before. Can you get out of this league without pushing it a bit? I’m not convinced. Even Plymouth had to. I think there is balance between being huge spenders and being too cautious to invest in key players.

[GhostoftheBok]

It’s where you need bravery to get it right.

There's a difference between bravery and stupidity.

Is it more brave to show patience and let professionals do their jobs, or is bravery throwing too much money at players and hoping?

Sam's initial major outlays were covered by Eddie as he started to look at taking control of Burnden Leisure.

The fact we then spent to the extent that even the sugar daddy model couldn't cover it is another matter.

Risking the future of the club isn't "being brave", it's just dumb and unprofessional.

We've decided to borrow money that we don't have to repay if the shit hits the fan (or fans, more accurately). That's the way we've covered ourselves if everything goes wrong. If you want us to spend beyond even those limits then I'm not sure what there is to discuss. It's not going to happen. The money doesn't exist.

This is where you show faith in your staff to get it right.

[BWFC_Insane]

It’s where you need bravery to get it right.

There's a difference between bravery and stupidity.

Is it more brave to show patience and let professionals do their jobs, or is bravery throwing too much money at players and hoping?

Sam's initial major outlays were covered by Eddie as he started to look at taking control of Burnden Leisure.

The fact we then spent to the extent that even the sugar daddy model couldn't cover it is another matter.

Risking the future of the club isn't "being brave", it's just dumb and unprofessional.

We've decided to borrow money that we don't have to repay if the shit hits the fan (or fans, more accurately). That's the way we've covered ourselves if everything goes wrong. If you want us to spend beyond even those limits then I'm not sure what there is to discuss. It's not going to happen. The money doesn't exist.

This is where you show faith in your staff to get it right.

I think the balancing factor is we aren’t sustainable in league one regardless. Were we breaking even then I think it’s a completely different discussion.

But we aren’t. So ultimately whatever plan there is clearly revolves around going up.

I’m certainly not suggesting we go and be silly. I’m probably most concerned about the money we spent on Nlundulu in terms of how that maximises our chances of promotion next season vs spending that elsewhere. Especially in light of walking away from two deals that did seem relatively affordable on the face of them for players in key areas.

For me that’s when alarm bells rang as it is a considerable chunk on a player that I’m not convinced is the answer to get us up. And in context of also spending a chunk on JDB who I like but also is injury prone. For me it feels like it should have been one or the other.

[BWFC_Insane]

Suggestion we may look to the loan market for a centre half now Johnston is likely out long term and Toal will miss the start of the season.

It get it in some ways. But then I think we have Jones, Forrester, Santos, Iredale and MJ who can cover. For 3 roles. Is that ideal? Not really but it also doesn't sound like Toal will be way off - he has a ligament healing injection in his ankle and needs to rest for a few weeks before returning to training. So that would be 5 genuine players plus versatile MJ cover...

I'd argue the bigger issue is Johnston is very good - arguably our best centre back - at least consistently so obviously a blow. But numbers wise it isn't terminal and I'd only be worried if Toal looked like missing bigger chunks too.

Even then a loan would seemingly be just using up resources for cover as I doubt they would play that much. Something we could wait on and see towards the end of August to see how Toal was and how the rest were shaping up?

[GhostoftheBok]

I think the balancing factor is we aren’t sustainable in league one regardless. Were we breaking even then I think it’s a completely different discussion.

But we aren’t. So ultimately whatever plan there is clearly revolves around going up.

I’m certainly not suggesting we go and be silly. I’m probably most concerned about the money we spent on Nlundulu in terms of how that maximises our chances of promotion next season vs spending that elsewhere. Especially in light of walking away from two deals that did seem relatively affordable on the face of them for players in key areas.

For me that’s when alarm bells rang as it is a considerable chunk on a player that I’m not convinced is the answer to get us up. And in context of also spending a chunk on JDB who I like but also is injury prone. For me it feels like it should have been one or the other.

The Nlundulu thing is fine. If you don't like a player you don't and all that can convince you otherwise is performances. There's no point arguing that. Ultimately a manager will sign players you don't rate. All that matters is how they perform.

We're not sustainable in League One, but if we want to raise more money at this stage it will impact the immediate solvency of the club if we don't go up. So the budgets are what they are.

The question really is whether you want to compete with Derby and sign one player, or do what we are currently doing and try to sign 3. Personally I'll take the patient approach that might net us the players we need.

The Wilson and Baccus deals we don't know about. Neither player have moved yet, there's just speculation around them. We have no idea whether other clubs will also move on having had a closer look.

[GhostoftheBok]

Suggestion we may look to the loan market for a centre half now Johnston is likely out long term and Toal will miss the start of the season.

If Johnston is out for the season then we need another in and the loan market is probably the way to go. I'm not sure if that's Marc guessing or not, though. I spoke to him about needing Johnston cover and he said he didn't think we did, whilst I said we'd likely look at the loan market. Whether he's just had a think or spoken to someone I dunno, but it's a change from his view on Saturday.

I'm perfectly happy for Iredale to come in on that side. I think he's a terrific centre back at this level. We need another lefty, though, as I wouldn't want to bank on Iredale staying fit for 40+ games.

[BWFC_Insane]

Suggestion we may look to the loan market for a centre half now Johnston is likely out long term and Toal will miss the start of the season.

If Johnston is out for the season then we need another in and the loan market is probably the way to go. I'm not sure if that's Marc guessing or not, though. I spoke to him about needing Johnston cover and he said he didn't think we did, whilst I said we'd likely look at the loan market. Whether he's just had a think or spoken to someone I dunno, but it's a change from his view on Saturday.

I'm perfectly happy for Iredale to come in on that side. I think he's a terrific centre back at this level. We need another lefty, though, as I wouldn't want to bank on Iredale staying fit for 40+ games.

Forrester has played left side plenty. I'd prefer obviously a left footed option too but lets for sake of argument use Mbete...left footed...would spending resources on him at this stage make sense? Not for me as it would not add to our chances. I think we can pick up a loan late in August if we believe its needed for cover then. Obviously if an amazing CB becomes available on loan now and they'd improve us as first choice - then worth it. But just a cover signing - I'd say see how it goes.

[boltonboris]

I think we can cope for a few weeks with Forrester, Iredale, Jones as options for outside CB roles

[GhostoftheBok]

Forrester has played left side plenty. I'd prefer obviously a left footed option too but lets for sake of argument use Mbete...left footed...would spending resources on him at this stage make sense? Not for me as it would not add to our chances. I think we can pick up a loan late in August if we believe its needed for cover then. Obviously if an amazing CB becomes available on loan now and they'd improve us as first choice - then worth it. But just a cover signing - I'd say see how it goes.

The answer right now is "probably not."

We'll want to get the main deals done now, so we know exactly where we are financial for this window and next - as we will almost certainly want to do some business in January. However, it depends on the finances and they will look at possible deals immediately.

Actually, assuming Markham is as professional as he's reputed to be, they will have lists drawn up for exactly this kind of scenario.

In terms of financially light options, Mbete may well be on that list. Evatt was full of praise for him initially and his issues were clearly not rooted in a lack of talent, he's just raw as all hell. If it were that kind of deal, whereby the loaning club would do us a favour because they'll get a better player back, then having them in as early as possible for preseason becomes important.

Luke Mbete with a preseason is less worrying to me than Luke Mbete done at the last minute.

Obviously the real issue with Mbete is how our fans would react to us signing a player many of them have written off. That will be a consideration for all parties. A young player doesn't need to be somewhere with the crowd on his back immediately.

[BWFC_Insane]

Forrester has played left side plenty. I'd prefer obviously a left footed option too but lets for sake of argument use Mbete...left footed...would spending resources on him at this stage make sense? Not for me as it would not add to our chances. I think we can pick up a loan late in August if we believe its needed for cover then. Obviously if an amazing CB becomes available on loan now and they'd improve us as first choice - then worth it. But just a cover signing - I'd say see how it goes.

The answer right now is "probably not."

We'll want to get the main deals done now, so we know exactly where we are financial for this window and next - as we will almost certainly want to do some business in January. However, it depends on the finances and they will look at possible deals immediately.

Actually, assuming Markham is as professional as he's reputed to be, they will have lists drawn up for exactly this kind of scenario.

In terms of financially light options, Mbete may well be on that list. Evatt was full of praise for him initially and his issues were clearly not rooted in a lack of talent, he's just raw as all hell. If it were that kind of deal, whereby the loaning club would do us a favour because they'll get a better player back, then having them in as early as possible for preseason becomes important.

Luke Mbete with a preseason is less worrying to me than Luke Mbete done at the last minute.

Obviously the real issue with Mbete is how our fans would react to us signing a player many of them have written off. That will be a consideration for all parties. A young player doesn't need to be somewhere with the crowd on his back immediately.

Mbete needs to go somewhere he can play week in week out to build experience. He is learning the basics of the game still. Has physical attributes but as a player needs that development. We'd be the wrong place for him and he the wrong option for us. We can't spend our time ironing out other people's players and he doesn't bring enough to warrant that.

The target is going up not smoothing out the edges of a youngster to send him back ready for the next level.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Would Evatt be thinking a loan with mostly a view of the future? If Johnstone is out for a significant amount of time what happens when his current contract runs out? Will he be the same player? Will a higher up team take the gamble on a free? Evatt might be tempted to a younger one in that can play a little but with a view to being the next Johnstone?

[Worthy4England]

Forrester has played left side plenty. I'd prefer obviously a left footed option too but lets for sake of argument use Mbete...left footed...would spending resources on him at this stage make sense? Not for me as it would not add to our chances. I think we can pick up a loan late in August if we believe its needed for cover then. Obviously if an amazing CB becomes available on loan now and they'd improve us as first choice - then worth it. But just a cover signing - I'd say see how it goes.

The answer right now is "probably not."

We'll want to get the main deals done now, so we know exactly where we are financial for this window and next - as we will almost certainly want to do some business in January. However, it depends on the finances and they will look at possible deals immediately.

Actually, assuming Markham is as professional as he's reputed to be, they will have lists drawn up for exactly this kind of scenario.

In terms of financially light options, Mbete may well be on that list. Evatt was full of praise for him initially and his issues were clearly not rooted in a lack of talent, he's just raw as all hell. If it were that kind of deal, whereby the loaning club would do us a favour because they'll get a better player back, then having them in as early as possible for preseason becomes important.

Luke Mbete with a preseason is less worrying to me than Luke Mbete done at the last minute.

Obviously the real issue with Mbete is how our fans would react to us signing a player many of them have written off. That will be a consideration for all parties. A young player doesn't need to be somewhere with the crowd on his back immediately.

Mbete was a bit unlucky for me, he made a couple (or was it just the one) howling cock-up as we were on a run-in where it wasn't nailed on that we would secure the top 6 spot. Of course our fans were not looking at he's a 19 year old, development talent, who was probably 5th/6th choice lobbed into a really important game. What we should have is a 5th/6th choice nailed on top of L1 level starter, that you're not going to use most of the time, just in case.

[GhostoftheBok]

Would Evatt be thinking a loan with mostly a view of the future? If Johnstone is out for a significant amount of time what happens when his current contract runs out? Will he be the same player? Will a higher up team take the gamble on a free? Evatt might be tempted to a younger one in that can play a little but with a view to being the next Johnstone?

The issue is the ages and contracts of the lads we have.

Jones is 27 and just signed a new deal.
Santos is 28 with two years left.
Iredale, 27 with 2 years left.
Toal, 24 with 2 left.
Forrester, 22 on a shiny new 3 year deal.

I wouldn't expect us to go and spend proper money on a kid on the assumption Johnston won't come back into that mix. Not when we are selling the B Team as a pathway for lads like Conway and Hayes-Green.

With no obvious exit path for any of the senior players it's hard to see where a younger player would fit into the plan. Unless we decided to dip back into the Irish market to pick up one of the young lads we've been monitoring and initially offer them B-Team football. That might be a tough sell, though.

Obviously if it's an horrific injury to Johnston we might have to really look again and it's impossible to know at this stage, perhaps even for those inside the club.

[GhostoftheBok]

Mbete was a bit unlucky for me, he made a couple (or was it just the one) howling cock-up as we were on a run-in where it wasn't nailed on that we would secure the top 6 spot. Of course our fans were not looking at he's a 19 year old, development talent, who was probably 5th/6th choice lobbed into a really important game. What we should have is a 5th/6th choice nailed on top of L1 level starter, that you're not going to use most of the time, just in case.

Yeah, I agree. I also agree with Insane that this might not be the environment for him and I feel that is one thing that makes a Prem loan a tough sell generally. Not many clubs want to send their youngsters out to a club that won't guarantee them starts and we can't really do that.

If we loaned a kid in and started him ahead of Iredale then he'd have every right to ask for a transfer.

When you've got an injury like this it can really cock things up. If it happened a month into the season you'd just have to deal with it, but Evatt's been clear he wants to be as risk free as possible (and we can talk about injury profiles in that context at some stage). That means proper depth and we look like now being short, so we will need to go again in some form.

We can't really say, "Well, MJ wasn't enough cover before the injury, but now he is"...it makes no sense.

The huge plus for Mbete is that left foot. It's a rare commodity and if City offered him to us I'd take him, personally.

[BWFC_Insane]

Would Evatt be thinking a loan with mostly a view of the future? If Johnstone is out for a significant amount of time what happens when his current contract runs out? Will he be the same player? Will a higher up team take the gamble on a free? Evatt might be tempted to a younger one in that can play a little but with a view to being the next Johnstone?

The issue is the ages and contracts of the lads we have.

Jones is 27 and just signed a new deal.
Santos is 28 with two years left.
Iredale, 27 with 2 years left.
Toal, 24 with 2 left.
Forrester, 22 on a shiny new 3 year deal.

I wouldn't expect us to go and spend proper money on a kid on the assumption Johnston won't come back into that mix. Not when we are selling the B Team as a pathway for lads like Conway and Hayes-Green.

With no obvious exit path for any of the senior players it's hard to see where a younger player would fit into the plan. Unless we decided to dip back into the Irish market to pick up one of the young lads we've been monitoring and initially offer them B-Team football. That might be a tough sell, though.

Obviously if it's an horrific injury to Johnston we might have to really look again and it's impossible to know at this stage, perhaps even for those inside the club.

Was the 'loan with a view' not an idea to cover bases with Johnston? Get someone who is young, could maybe play enough this season if necessary for experience and have a deal in place to sign them come the summer IF we choose to, in order to cover Johnston - not recovering, OR not renewing a contract for any reason?

I think in theory that would make sense. And for example Mbete on such a deal would be infinitely preferable to signing him as a loan cover and then someone else benefitting from his development. Though easy to outline deals like this in theory harder to make happen.

[GhostoftheBok]

Was the 'loan with a view' not an idea to cover bases with Johnston? Get someone who is young, could maybe play enough this season if necessary for experience and have a deal in place to sign them come the summer IF we choose to, in order to cover Johnston - not recovering, OR not renewing a contract for any reason?

I think in theory that would make sense. And for example Mbete on such a deal would be infinitely preferable to signing him as a loan cover and then someone else benefitting from his development. Though easy to outline deals like this in theory harder to make happen.

The issue with "loan with a view" is that same pathway one, though. I mean generally I'm all for that kind of deal, but unless we're writing off Johnston now there are questions to be asked as to what we're offering the new lad. You can't say, "Come on loan and if you do really well we still might not take you is Johnston's back fit." Likewise, you can't say to Johnston "We've replaced you, so work hard to get fit or you're done here." That's not how clubs work in real life, regardless of how ruthless the industry is.

The contract situation in the defence is an odd one for me anyway, as if we went up this season we'd have hoped to have the full 6 centre half options under contract for next season.

The other big issue in all this is registration of players. We may not be able to register Johnston if we bring in a loan-to-buy player, which again just shuts him out completely. Unless he's literally out for 12 months he needs a route back onto the grass and that means he needs a squad space open to him, even if it's after January. That might force us to go with an U21 player.

Without knowing how bad the injury is it's really difficult to speculate, but it's clearly going to be complicated.