Snog, Marry, Avoid: Summer 2023 Transfer Window

[GhostoftheBok]

I'm thinking of the sort of 'flair' players we've had in relatively recent times...

For me they'd be Zach at his best, Sammy Ameobi, Mark Davies....

I'm probably missing some but for me those were the sorts who could make you feel like they were about to do something exciting. When on form.

Could I see them fitting into our system under Evatt? No. Bar maybe Mark Davies as a number 10 - but Davies was at his best not in that role....

Zach and Mavies would play perfectly well under Evatt.

If the real issue here is "I wish we'd play wingers" then fair enough, but we don't.

Teams play wingback systems with flair and creativity in the side. Right across Europe it's perfectly normal and it was there in front of us in League One last season.

Saying "These players we had in the past wouldn't work" doesn't do much for me. We weren't playing the same system, so no the same players wouldn't be used in exactly the same roles and yes some might not fit.

I think there are creative and exciting players in the market that would work for us. I bloody well hope we get a couple.

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm thinking of the sort of 'flair' players we've had in relatively recent times...

For me they'd be Zach at his best, Sammy Ameobi, Mark Davies....

I'm probably missing some but for me those were the sorts who could make you feel like they were about to do something exciting. When on form.

Could I see them fitting into our system under Evatt? No. Bar maybe Mark Davies as a number 10 - but Davies was at his best not in that role....

Zach and Mavies would play perfectly well under Evatt.

If the real issue here is "I wish we'd play wingers" then fair enough, but we don't.

Teams play wingback systems with flair and creativity in the side. Right across Europe it's perfectly normal and it was there in front of us in League One last season.

Saying "These players we had in the past wouldn't work" doesn't do much for me. We weren't playing the same system, so no the same players wouldn't be used in exactly the same roles and yes some might not fit.

I think there are creative and exciting players in the market that would work for us. I bloody well hope we get a couple.

You'd have to play Clough up front. Which I'm not convinced Evatt would do.

I guess some of this comes down to your definition of 'flair' too. I'm trying to think of wing backs I'd consider flair players but struggling a bit.

[boltonboris]

If Evatt had a Mark Davies at his disposal, you're mad if you don't think he's playing him in the middle of the park and routing the play through him

But players that good are not available to him, so it's a pointless argument

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Words are only the signifiers of concepts, and concepts are elusive. Particularly a concept like "flair". What precisely does it mean? I suspect for many people it means the ability to produce the unexpected, to work outside systems. Which is fine, in some contexts. You wouldn't particularly want a surgeon with flair. You wouldn't want an artist without any.

Because English football spent decades distrusting flair, it's also got negative connotations. When we were all hidebound to a run-through-brick-walls 4-4-2, where would a Glenn Hoddle or even a Stan Bowles fit? It's a bit different now but I do agree with the broad-brush notion that a wingback system potentially has fewer "places" for flair than a 4-2-3-1, where you could essentially have such players all along the second-line trio.

But then, as Ghost says, it's not necessarily the case that the only hole in a 3-4-1-2 is the 1. Wingbacks, who basically function as wingers (the ultimate old-school "flair" position) with extra defensive duties, can have flair. (Did Fossey have flair?) What they can't have is the sometime corollary of flair - a lack of systemic diligence - otherwise their team gets pummeled down that side.

[BWFC_Insane]

Words are only the signifiers of concepts, and concepts are elusive. Particularly a concept like "flair". What precisely does it mean? I suspect for many people it means the ability to produce the unexpected, to work outside systems. Which is fine, in some contexts. You wouldn't particularly want a surgeon with flair. You wouldn't want an artist without any.

Because English football spent decades distrusting flair, it's also got negative connotations. When we were all hidebound to a run-through-brick-walls 4-4-2, where would a Glenn Hoddle or even a Stan Bowles fit? It's a bit different now but I do agree with the broad-brush notion that a wingback system potentially has fewer "places" for flair than a 4-2-3-1, where you could essentially have such players all along the second-line trio.

But then, as Ghost says, it's not necessarily the case that the only hole in a 3-4-1-2 is the 1. Wingbacks, who basically function as wingers (the ultimate old-school "flair" position) with extra defensive duties, can have flair. (Did Fossey have flair?) What they can't have is the sometime corollary of flair - a lack of systemic diligence - otherwise their team gets pummeled down that side.

Yeah I agree with this. Your wingbacks can have 'flair' but its a question of as you say coupling that with other qualities. None of the wing backs we possess (I can't comment on JDC yet) have what I'd call flair. I'm not even sure I'd say Fossey did either - he had pace to burn which I guess is exciting in its own right. Dapo had flair but was never going to make it as a wing back.

I do think the system offers less opportunities to get those sorts of players in - and the ones who can really excite tend to need that 4231 or similar to function in.

However, I think if we had two flying wing backs who play high up the pitch with genuine pace to burn and the ability to cut inside or go outside that we'd be much more dynamic and exciting. So maybe that's the way. JDC sounds like he's quick - maybe Randy will regain that blistering pace (though he showed no sign last season) and maybe we add a more experienced RWB with those qualities too.

I don't know. The number 10 position I think is hard to fill and we've only really had two players who made it work - Sarce (who maybe had a touch of flair at times) and Lee who definitely did not but was just a superb footballer all round.

[GhostoftheBok]

You don't need to worry about JDC, Insane; he's not a flair player. I shouldn't think it matters whose definition we are using.

I'd say Kane Wilson is a flair player. He's a tricky, unpredictable winger in the final third, but he does he work defensively. Derby signed him, so for us it no longer matters, but I'd say he's a sign it's something we're after.

For me you could potentially play 4 of the sort in our system. Down both flanks, the most advanced of the mids and one of the two forwards. This is League One, so we won't get that; but I'll be disappointed if we don't get two such in our first choice 11 at some stage next season and we need at least one on the pitch in most games.

At some stage you have to be able to give the ball to a lad who can beat any defender on the pitch one-on-one and say "There you go, Charlie. Send him for lunch."

[Bertie Wooster]

You don't need to worry about JDC, Insane; he's not a flair player. I shouldn't think it matters whose definition we are using.

I'd say Kane Wilson is a flair player. He's a tricky, unpredictable winger in the final third, but he does he work defensively. Derby signed him, so for us it no longer matters, but I'd say he's a sign it's something we're after.

For me you could potentially play 4 of the sort in our system. Down both flanks, the most advanced of the mids and one of the two forwards. This is League One, so we won't get that; but I'll be disappointed if we don't get two such in our first choice 11 at some stage next season and we need at least one on the pitch in most games.

At some stage you have to be able to give the ball to a lad who can beat any defender on the pitch one-on-one and say "There you go, Charlie. Send him for lunch."

But Charlie would be knackered once he received the ball, as he would have spent 1/2 the game in our half tracking back and defending.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

At some stage you have to be able to give the ball to a lad who can beat any defender on the pitch one-on-one and say "There you go, Charlie. Send him for lunch."

But Charlie would be knackered once he received the ball, as he would have spent 1/2 the game in our half tracking back and defending.

We could play 10 vs 11 and be losing 3-0 by the time Charlie gets the ball.

Not many luxury players these days, allowed to float about doing nowt off the ball bar thinking nice thoughts. In fact, none spring immediately to mind, now that the Portuguese Ego has left Old Trafford. And to give him credit - difficult, but I have to at least try to be fair - he did work hard, albeit selfishly, to get into good positions wherefrom he could emit "Give Me The Ball, Serf" vibes.

[BWFC_Insane]

You don't need to worry about JDC, Insane; he's not a flair player. I shouldn't think it matters whose definition we are using.

I'd say Kane Wilson is a flair player. He's a tricky, unpredictable winger in the final third, but he does he work defensively. Derby signed him, so for us it no longer matters, but I'd say he's a sign it's something we're after.

For me you could potentially play 4 of the sort in our system. Down both flanks, the most advanced of the mids and one of the two forwards. This is League One, so we won't get that; but I'll be disappointed if we don't get two such in our first choice 11 at some stage next season and we need at least one on the pitch in most games.

At some stage you have to be able to give the ball to a lad who can beat any defender on the pitch one-on-one and say "There you go, Charlie. Send him for lunch."

Yeah agree completely, though I'd add its not just being able to beat a man but say score a goal from nothing too. The old one touch smash it in the top corner from 30 yards. Maybe not regularly but enough to be a threat. Or turn a player and finish first time. Its that sort of thing.

Its why I'm a bit disappointed in our strikers - we've not got that sort of player there and there were some available I think who'd add more exciting aspects to our attacking play.

[Worthy4England]

I reckon most folks might be in a good place if we get a "Wilson/Fossey" alike for WB - noting that whilst Williams improved from Jan to May (IMO ) he didn't ever look stellar.

Someone in Lee's hole, but I'm thinking more of an Alfie May than a Shola Shortire (unless he's improved)...

And an addition down the left, especially if John goes.

Plus a DM.

[BWFC_Insane]

I reckon most folks might be in a good place if we get a "Wilson/Fossey" alike for WB - noting that whilst Williams improved from Jan to May (IMO ) he didn't ever look stellar.

Someone in Lee's hole, but I'm thinking more of an Alfie May than a Shola Shortire (unless he's improved)...

And an addition down the left, especially if John goes.

Plus a DM.

Agree re WB.

I'm disappointed we didn't go for May as whilst he's older and has come into form later in his career he's the type who offers what we don't have. That bit of magic - false number 9 or even the fabled number 10 I think he could have been good for.

[GhostoftheBok]

Regarding the "take a touch and hit it" we are definitely working on that sort of thing.

Any time a player picks the ball up around the corner of the box the player inside him has to immediately run diagonally to the touchline corner of the box, dragging defenders with him. That has opened up a number of shooting chances so far. Morley has hit the post twice from that angle, Cogley has had three or four goes and come very close twice (plus he netted once).

If you go to one of the home friendlies you'll hear Evatt shouting things like "Corner run" and "Selfless run" at them when the ball gets picked up in those positions.

At the same time the strikers make runs inside the box so the player on the ball has four options: Shoot, pass to the corner runner, hit a striker, switch to the far post.

It's been our best creative position thus far. I think we've scored 2 from similar actions, hit the woodwork 3 times and been denied by a couple of good saves.

Last season we seemed to refuse long shots (I assume on orders), but this season we've tweaked the rest defence and taken the shackles off around the edge of the box.

[BWFC_Insane]

^That's all nice but you also need players who are strong enough and skilled enough to create that yard of space and then good enough to hit a good shot. I don't see many of ours being that type.

[GhostoftheBok]

We could play 10 vs 11 and be losing 3-0 by the time Charlie gets the ball.

Not many luxury players these days, allowed to float about doing nowt off the ball bar thinking nice thoughts. In fact, none spring immediately to mind, now that the Portuguese Ego has left Old Trafford. And to give him credit - difficult, but I have to at least try to be fair - he did work hard, albeit selfishly, to get into good positions wherefrom he could emit "Give Me The Ball, Serf" vibes.

The closest is Salah. He still presses, but isn't asked to track back as much now he's in his 30s.

Most wide creative players are more like Grealish or Saka, where they will run back 60 yards to help the team.

There aren't many coaches left in the game who will build a framework for individuals to do what they fancy. Ancelotti has allowed that at Madrid, as it's what the players felt suited them; but as the older lads are phasing out he's becoming more structured with the replacements.

Every other top manager I can think of expects players to implement his plan and gives them creative freedom in specific zones, provided there's cover on.

Neil Warnock's Taarabt thing of "Don't pass it to him in our half or you get fined" is a thing of the past. Saying that, Taarabt was only playing in the Championship because he wouldn't do the work and that was unacceptable at the top level even 10-15 years ago.

[GhostoftheBok]

^That's all nice but you also need players who are strong enough and skilled enough to create that yard of space and then good enough to hit a good shot. I don't see many of ours being that type.

I agree, but I think this season we'd allow for that. Whereas last season we'd have been looking for the lad to lay off a pass to try and create a higher XG chance where we were in a better covering position against the counter, this time I think we'll have a go.

We look like we'll take more chances this time and we already got done on the counter once as a result.

Last season was a bit of an anomaly as we looked to get the defensive systems right. Prior to that we've seen lads like Dapo having a dip at will.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

...First is Pan Camara, the rangy 26-year-old that Plymouth reluctantly let go to Suffolk for £500,000 last summer. He had groin surgery in December and they want to send him on loan this season (and his contract's up next summer). Sheffield Wednesday are interested and he might prefer the higher level, but equally Ipswich might prefer he wasn't helping a rival.

.
Boooo if true (and the tweeter is a decent source). Would be a very good signing for a side tooling up to a worrying extent.

[GhostoftheBok]

Boooo if true (and the tweeter is a decent source). Would be a very good signing for a side tooling up to a worrying extent.

A very good signing for Charlton, if it happens. Not unexpected for them to be really strong in the coming season, but still annoying.

[Bertie Wooster]

Boooo if true (and the tweeter is a decent source). Would be a very good signing for a side tooling up to a worrying extent.

A very good signing for Charlton, if it happens. Not unexpected for them to be really strong in the coming season, but still annoying.

Not a patch on the apparent superstar's that Evatt has lined up for us.

[GhostoftheBok]

Not a patch on the apparent superstar's that Evatt has lined up for us.

Well, it depends what the criteria are.

We've taken a lot of risks on injuries, but thus far we've done it when the player is either a free transfer or a nominal fee.

The lads we've spent good money on don't present with obvious injury concerns that would make you think they might miss a lot of football every season. Pan, from the outside, looks like a potential sicknote.

Because he's (potentially) going to a rival you look only at the possible upside, because you need to allow for the worst case scenario. Were he coming here you'd look at possibly spending £500k on a lad who had fairly significant surgery and worry the other way.

Most clubs will have 6-10 points they want ticked off before signing a player. The lower the cost, the more risk they are usually willing to deal with regarding those due diligence tests. It may well be we'd look at Camara and think it's too risky for the outlay.

[Bertie Wooster]

Not a patch on the apparent superstar's that Evatt has lined up for us.

Well, it depends what the criteria are.

We've taken a lot of risks on injuries, but thus far we've done it when the player is either a free transfer or a nominal fee.

The lads we've spent good money on don't present with obvious injury concerns that would make you think they might miss a lot of football every season. Pan, from the outside, looks like a potential sicknote.

Because he's (potentially) going to a rival you look only at the possible upside, because you need to allow for the worst case scenario. Were he coming here you'd look at possibly spending £500k on a lad who had fairly significant surgery and worry the other way.

Most clubs will have 6-10 points they want ticked off before signing a player. The lower the cost, the more risk they are usually willing to deal with regarding those due diligence tests. It may well be we'd look at Camara and think it's too risky for the outlay.

I thought that we were waiting for these quality championship players to become available, hence the delays i.e. players of the quality to get us top 2 and then good enough to keep us in the championship. Evatt even said that they are that good that they won't suffer from missing a few weeks of pre-season - “We are hoping the ones we are targeting will be of a high enough quality and stature to take on board what we are trying to do and fit in quickly,”

I'm already looking forward to the new RWB Charlie dribbling past defenders at ease.