Who opened the door? My money is on Janus! 2024 January transfer thread.

[Worthy4England]

I'd find that fairly stunning (not that he improves through application) but he had sod all to work with. On the plus side, if our pub players work hard, it'll be reet!

Shearer can't have impressed Newcastle much at his schoolboy trial - what with being put in goal...

I do have a lot of time for players who work hard to improve themselves. Harry Kane was no huge shakes as a kid or even a young man –just over a decade ago, in the final months of his teens, he was loaned to second-tier Leicester and scored 2 in 15 even though they sneaked into the playoffs (can't remember who they sneaked past) - but he worked diligently and intelligently to cover his shortcomings (eg lack of pace) and augment his abilities. It's another reason to love Thomo, who many of us had expected to top out as a fourth-tier player at best. Of course, to improve a player that much also takes good coaching...

The point I was making wasn't that a lot of hard work doesn't improve a player, it generally does. But you're unlikely to get past Bolton Sunday, unless you have a bit of something. You're probably not getting trials and the like. None of which rules out all the outliers...

It’s not that someone is a pub player and through hard work becomes Messi. It’s that there are loads of technically talented players who don’t make it to the top level even though at 16 they were maybe ahead of others. Because they didn’t maximise their ability.

The difference between the very top and the rest is in a lot of cases in the head rather than anything else.

Don't disagree with this. I think 16 is a pretty arbitrary age, especially because at that point some people are a lot nearer grown-up football than others. The world is full of "I coulda been a contender" wastage.

So many players where folks suggest "natural talent" point to the many, many additional hours they put in training doing the non-sexy things like after hours free-kick delivery etc.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

The point I was making wasn't that a lot of hard work doesn't improve a player, it generally does. But you're unlikely to get past Bolton Sunday, unless you have a bit of something. You're probably not getting trials and the like. None of which rules out all the outliers...

It’s not that someone is a pub player and through hard work becomes Messi. It’s that there are loads of technically talented players who don’t make it to the top level even though at 16 they were maybe ahead of others. Because they didn’t maximise their ability.

The difference between the very top and the rest is in a lot of cases in the head rather than anything else.

Don't disagree with this. I think 16 is a pretty arbitrary age, especially because at that point some people are a lot nearer grown-up football than others. The world is full of "I coulda been a contender" wastage.

So many players where folks suggest "natural talent" point to the many, many additional hours they put in training doing the non-sexy things like after hours free-kick delivery etc.

Agreed with pretty much all the above-quoted, from both of you. Stories are legion of the guy with more talent than <insert very famous peer> who didn't make it.

It's not quite "1% inspiration 99% perspiration" (as attributed to Edison, but as usual it's probably somebody else's idea that he just copyrighted ) but if you can't do the hard work you won't succeed, to any level.

Funnily enough I was with some ex-FourFourTwo colleagues the other night and we were discussing players who didn't have the desire and discipline necessary to really kick on. Benny Assou-Ekotto was mentioned, as he usually is, with memories of him turning up for games with a Tesco sandwich-and-pop meal deal, not knowing who they were playing despite the previous day's two-hour briefing. The modern equivalent might be Ben White, who walked out of England's pre-World Cup camp rather than be a reserve; his place was taken by Conor Coady, who may not have the talent but was certainly ecstatic to be there and ready to do anything for the group.

Now, Ben White is a success by almost any measure: a regular in a title-contending team, earning six figures a week and apparently due a pay bump. Seems though that he'd rather be on a sun-bed or down the eyebrow salon than tirelessly working to elevate himself. His choice, and none of us can ever know whether we'd make the same one. But it will always seem odd to fans, and understandably so.

[The_Gun]

My understanding with Ben White is that he doesn’t really like football that much, but I’m not sure that’s indicative of a poor work ethic. If anything, becoming one of the top players in England despite not having a love for the game probably indicates he’s worked very hard.

[Worthy4England]

Ali Da. He certainly hot himself into a better place than perhaps his natural talent suggested he might. Hard work pays!

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

My understanding with Ben White is that he doesn’t really like football that much, but I’m not sure that’s indicative of a poor work ethic. If anything, becoming one of the top players in England despite not having a love for the game probably indicates he’s worked very hard.

Possibly. But then when he and Lendro Trossard were jointly interviewed and White was asked what his favourite part of the day at Arsenal was, Trossard answered “I think it’s when he’s back home."

Now, we've all had days when we're itching to pop on our hat and make for the door. But I don't think it's a huge leap of logic to say the White - as I say, a very good footballer - isn't maximising his talent and chances.

And of course 'work ethic' is a term loaded with moral judgement. I don't want to imply I think Harry Kane is a better person than Ben White. We work to live, not the other way round, and very few people lie on their deathbed wishing they'd put in more overtime. But then for most people, overtime is more about helping the boss/company rather than being the best you can be, whereas the conversation topic here is footballers' attitude and aptitude, and clearly you need both.

[GhostoftheBok]

Evatt quotes in Iles' Geth call-up piece this morning indicating that, as was always possible, Hart's transfer comments may have been misleading.

Let the games begin...

[Prufrock]

We'll miss him but hopefully it's a prompt for that RWB.

To be fair to him JDC has done very well on the whole given the step up, but he's struggled recently (which may be due to being run ragged) but it's clearly somewhere we hoped to get a big signing.

With his only cover away you'd hope we signed someone and then got Matheson a loan. Rather than then a 6thb choice CB.

Well done to him though!

[GhostoftheBok]

We'll miss him but hopefully it's a prompt for that RWB.

To be fair to him JDC has done very well on the whole given the step up, but he's struggled recently (which may be due to being run ragged) but it's clearly somewhere we hoped to get a big signing.

With his only cover away you'd hope we signed someone and then got Matheson a loan. Rather than then a 6thb choice CB.

Well done to him though!

Delighted for him. Even more delighted if it spurs us into getting some business done this January to kick us on.

[BWFC_Insane]

We'll miss him but hopefully it's a prompt for that RWB.

To be fair to him JDC has done very well on the whole given the step up, but he's struggled recently (which may be due to being run ragged) but it's clearly somewhere we hoped to get a big signing.

With his only cover away you'd hope we signed someone and then got Matheson a loan. Rather than then a 6thb choice CB.

Well done to him though!

Agreed though the conundrum is that it leaves us with 4 fit centre backs for a long slog which maybe too risky. Especially considering one of them is maybe going to need to play LWB for a while too.

It’s probably more than one we need to ensure adequate cover across CB and WB….

[Prufrock]

I can see that. Though I think JDC has played there hasn't he? Wouldn't want to rely on that away from home to a good team, but I think he'd be a real weapon in home games where we have all the ball. Swashbuckling RWB in front getting up and down and then JDC arriving late to cross.

[GhostoftheBok]

Agreed though the conundrum is that it leaves us with 4 fit centre backs for a long slog which maybe too risky.

5, isn't it?

Santos, Toal, Forrester, Iredale and Ashworth. Or did I misread that?

[Prufrock]

I (and assume Insane) completely forgot about Ashworth...

[GhostoftheBok]

I (and assume Insane) completely forgot about Ashworth...

Could be counting him as a wingback?

[BWFC_Insane]

Agreed though the conundrum is that it leaves us with 4 fit centre backs for a long slog which maybe too risky.

5, isn't it?

Santos, Toal, Forrester, Iredale and Ashworth. Or did I misread that?

Yeah no fair enough. I guess it depends on what position Ashworth is seen as occupying and whether doing so would weaken us. We’ve not really seen enough to know whether he is a viable option for a team needing a second half of the season promotion charge or not.

[Worthy4England]

Does anyone actually know what position he is? It seems to me, he could be punted at any one of a few? Also, he hasn't had too much start time and is a loan - is there a chance he goes return to sender in Jan?

[GhostoftheBok]

Yeah no fair enough. I guess it depends on what position Ashworth is seen as occupying and whether doing so would weaken us. We’ve not really seen enough to know whether he is a viable option for a team needing a second half of the season promotion charge or not.

Yeah, that's fair.

Personally I think he looks a decent young player, but there's no way to know how he'll do until he gets a run.

I do wonder how he feels this loan is going. No league starts yet. 16 in half a season at Burton, where he earned rave reviews.

He's come here to find a permanent home, but if he can't get games here any more than West Brom...

I suspect what we're doing is pushing him in training to get to the stage we need him at tactically; but that is just a guess.

[boltonboris]

I just simply think he's down the pecking order. We don't owe him, or West Brom any favours and there are better players available to us under our ownership.

If he was a permanent, I think he'd have been given more opportunities on the rare occasions he's been fit

[GhostoftheBok]

I just simply think he's down the pecking order. We don't owe him, or West Brom any favours and there are better players available to us under our ownership.

If he was a permanent, I think he'd have been given more opportunities on the rare occasions he's been fit

We have an agreed fee for him. We were planning on him being here long term, but obviously he has to earn it. We're not handing out deals for free.

[BWFC_Insane]

The little bits I’ve seen of Ashworth to me he looks like a left back more than anything. Not a wing back or centre back but a traditional left back in a back four.

But iirc when he arrived Iles suggested he was most likely to play in midfield…..

[Worthy4England]

The little bits I’ve seen of Ashworth to me he looks like a left back more than anything. Not a wing back or centre back but a traditional left back in a back four.

But iirc when he arrived Iles suggested he was most likely to play in midfield…..

Didn't recall it coming from Iles, but thought I'd read MF somewhere too.