Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Simple question for those who are (understandably) asking for a back four: who's your one central striker, in either the 4-3-3 or the 4-2-3-1? If it's Charles, and let's be honest he's easily our best source of goals, how does that help the total lack of 'stickability' we saw on Saturday? If it's not Charles, who is it?

For clarity, I'm not setting a trap. I'm genuinely open and intrigued how people think we can line up next term. I've said for a while that I would dearly love us to have tactical/formational flexibility - it would make us a lot harder to gameplan against than we obviously are - and I see glaring problems with the back three, but I also see big problems with a back four.

Here's another one: Who's the full-backs? Iredale and Jones? If so, isn't that another 'defender' compared to the three we already have? If we add the midfield 'destroyer' of legend, aren't we suddenly hugely cutting down our attacking power?

So without defenestrating babies along wiht Saturday's repugnant bath-water, talk me calmly through it - and do me the favour of not simply saying "sack 12 first-teamers and buy new ones" which frankly is fantasy talk, whoever the manager is. With a maximum of 3 or 4 new signings - possibly fewer if you're excluding high wage earners still under contract (eg Santos, Sheehan, Adebyejo/Charles) - how do you retrofit this team into a back-four?

[Bertie Wooster]

^^ I think for me, Bertie, if he's going to go, either under his own steam or otherwise, we just need it to occur quickly.

We've been told plenty that a minority or just a few not rights want him gone, but this little survey (obviously not statistically representative) suggests there might be a few more wanting change than we're led to believe...

Worthy - it's not just on here, other forum's have the same poll going & it's around 60% wanting him to go.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

We've been told plenty that a minority or just a few not rights want him gone, but this little survey (obviously not statistically representative) suggests there might be a few more wanting change than we're led to believe...

That's why I did the poll, to assess the general feeling including among those who don't post (very) regularly. It's currently 57% leave, which feels about right to me. Maybe (as Boris suggest) heads will cool and that number will reduce, but it's still worryingly high for Evatt and Brittan.

For the record, I think Iles's pieces have got the temperature bang on. Many people, and not just 'extremists', are asking a serious question. I imagine Evatt is too, and while I'm still just about on the "Stay" side (while fully agreeing with Ghost that that's only feasible if he's full-on determined and yet huymble enough to change some things), if he is going to go I'd rather it happen quickly. Going to be a difficult division without letting all our rivals steal a march on the available players - especially if a new manager wants a rebuild.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

^^ I think for me, Bertie, if he's going to go, either under his own steam or otherwise, we just need it to occur quickly.

We've been told plenty that a minority or just a few not rights want him gone, but this little survey (obviously not statistically representative) suggests there might be a few more wanting change than we're led to believe...

Worthy - it's not just on here, other forum's have the same poll going & it's around 60% wanting him to go.

Interesting that it's the same on other forums, which I often feel are less forgiving. But as I say, 60% "out" sounds about right to me.

[Worthy4England]

^^ I think for me, Bertie, if he's going to go, either under his own steam or otherwise, we just need it to occur quickly.

We've been told plenty that a minority or just a few not rights want him gone, but this little survey (obviously not statistically representative) suggests there might be a few more wanting change than we're led to believe...

Worthy - it's not just on here, other forum's have the same poll going & it's around 60% wanting him to go.

Aye, don't doubt it, mate.

[GhostoftheBok]

^^ I think for me, Bertie, if he's going to go, either under his own steam or otherwise, we just need it to occur quickly.

We've been told plenty that a minority or just a few not rights want him gone, but this little survey (obviously not statistically representative) suggests there might be a few more wanting change than we're led to believe...

I'd suggest Saturday might have an a mild impact there.

I'm far closer to wanting him out than I ever have been. Big losses move the needle.

He should have taken this group up and he didn't.

[Worthy4England]

We've been told plenty that a minority or just a few not rights want him gone, but this little survey (obviously not statistically representative) suggests there might be a few more wanting change than we're led to believe...

That's why I did the poll, to assess the general feeling including among those who don't post (very) regularly. It's currently 57% leave, which feels about right to me. Maybe (as Boris suggest) heads will cool and that number will reduce, but it's still worryingly high for Evatt and Brittan.

For the record, I think Iles's pieces have got the temperature bang on. Many people, and not just 'extremists', are asking a serious question. I imagine Evatt is too, and while I'm still just about on the "Stay" side (while fully agreeing with Ghost that that's only feasible if he's full-on determined and yet huymble enough to change some things), if he is going to go I'd rather it happen quickly. Going to be a difficult division without letting all our rivals steal a march on the available players - especially if a new manager wants a rebuild.

Yeah mate. I also think "just one more year" is a much tougher sell this time around, than it was 12 months ago

i was probably same place as you are now, 12 months back and gave him the benefit of the doubt. This year I've switched. It is, for me, the same (or at least very similar) recurring problem which hasn't been resolved.

[Worthy4England]

^^ I think for me, Bertie, if he's going to go, either under his own steam or otherwise, we just need it to occur quickly.

We've been told plenty that a minority or just a few not rights want him gone, but this little survey (obviously not statistically representative) suggests there might be a few more wanting change than we're led to believe...

I'd suggest Saturday might have an a mild impact there.

I'm far closer to wanting him out than I ever have been. Big losses move the needle.

He should have taken this group up and he didn't.

I'm sure Saturday has had a massive impact. So it should, probably our most important game in 7 years.

I mean we could wait to July to see if it sways back, some, but this isn't a minority of not reets.

[GhostoftheBok]

Simple question for those who are (understandably) asking for a back four: who's your one central striker, in either the 4-3-3 or the 4-2-3-1? If it's Charles, and let's be honest he's easily our best source of goals, how does that help the total lack of 'stickability' we saw on Saturday? If it's not Charles, who is it?

For clarity, I'm not setting a trap. I'm genuinely open and intrigued how people think we can line up next term. I've said for a while that I would dearly love us to have tactical/formational flexibility - it would make us a lot harder to gameplan against than we obviously are - and I see glaring problems with the back three, but I also see big problems with a back four.

Here's another one: Who's the full-backs? Iredale and Jones? If so, isn't that another 'defender' compared to the three we already have? If we add the midfield 'destroyer' of legend, aren't we suddenly hugely cutting down our attacking power?

So without defenestrating babies along wiht Saturday's repugnant bath-water, talk me calmly through it - and do me the favour of not simply saying "sack 12 first-teamers and buy new ones" which frankly is fantasy talk, whoever the manager is. With a maximum of 3 or 4 new signings - possibly fewer if you're excluding high wage earners still under contract (eg Santos, Sheehan, Adebyejo/Charles) - how do you retrofit this team into a back-four?

If you want to win the league, which should be the aim again next season, you can't make a back four from what we have.

You can absolutely make a decent one, but not a league winner.

However, we've not yet made a league winning 3/5 from it either

Evatt is playing the best formation for this group of players. If what people are saying is essentially a Mike Basset "4-3-fecking-3", then that's different.

A switch to a 4-3-3 hinders Johnston, Dion and Santos.

Randell would become a winger. Our fullback options would be Cogley, Iredale and Jones as things stand.

Your front 3 is probably Vic, Collins and CMG. Midfield is Thommo, Sheehan and Dempsey. Back four would be Iredale, Johnston, Toal and Cogley.

The issues are obvious, but not insurmountable. Vic and CMG probably suit it better.

[GhostoftheBok]

I'm sure Saturday has had a massive impact. So it should, probably our most important game in 7 years.

I mean we could wait to July to see if it sways back, some, but this isn't a minority of not reets.

July won't do anything much.

Only performances and results will shift it now and only promotion will really turn it around.

[BWFC_Insane]

Simple question for those who are (understandably) asking for a back four: who's your one central striker, in either the 4-3-3 or the 4-2-3-1? If it's Charles, and let's be honest he's easily our best source of goals, how does that help the total lack of 'stickability' we saw on Saturday? If it's not Charles, who is it?

For clarity, I'm not setting a trap. I'm genuinely open and intrigued how people think we can line up next term. I've said for a while that I would dearly love us to have tactical/formational flexibility - it would make us a lot harder to gameplan against than we obviously are - and I see glaring problems with the back three, but I also see big problems with a back four.

Here's another one: Who's the full-backs? Iredale and Jones? If so, isn't that another 'defender' compared to the three we already have? If we add the midfield 'destroyer' of legend, aren't we suddenly hugely cutting down our attacking power?

So without defenestrating babies along wiht Saturday's repugnant bath-water, talk me calmly through it - and do me the favour of not simply saying "sack 12 first-teamers and buy new ones" which frankly is fantasy talk, whoever the manager is. With a maximum of 3 or 4 new signings - possibly fewer if you're excluding high wage earners still under contract (eg Santos, Sheehan, Adebyejo/Charles) - how do you retrofit this team into a back-four?

Yeah let me take this on with less emotion than previously.

I don’t think a back three is a problem until you get to wing backs. We simply don’t have the quality out wide to cope with a game like Saturday against a team who block off the midfield. Our wing backs are neither penetrative enough nor good enough crossers of the ball. Ogbeta had all the space on Saturday yet couldn’t offer threat. I like Williams quite a lot but I don’t see him as making a huge difference either.

A 3 at the back for me dictates us signing 4 absolutely top wing backs. And there aren’t many around and the few that are likely cost way more than we will have to prise them away. And if we can’t add real threat and quality out wide coupled with players who are more robust going backwards and able to run all day long then I think we become too easy to shut down. Unless we get a real target and play off them.

For me the back four gives us the wide players who can as oxfords did play beyond a striker or drift inside or outside. We can have attacking full backs behind them to offer width and quality delivery maybe with less ‘on them’ all the time and said full backs can also be more circumspect when situations dictate.

Those wide players will need some pace and quality and I’d have maybe Collins down for one of those roles or the ‘number 10’.

Up front if he’s here I’d have Charles and yes it’s not like we can hit him with direct balls but his movement and that of the two wide players is where we have to work our outs down the channels. Collins floating round. If we could find an Ameobi like wide player that would be excellent - someone who wants to run at teams.

Then we can have two absolute dogs in midfield to protect the back four and win everything. I think Thommo could be one but we’d need another.

I think jones and Iredale are both best as normal full backs but whether either or both stay or not I don’t know.

A partner for Toal - maybe Johnston. But certainly would want some CB recruitment.

And then that could become a back three when the situation allows and when two up top is more optimal. But I do think that we need that different structure a lot of the time.

[GhostoftheBok]

Worth noting that before we switched to a 3 some on here wanted Johnston out of the club, because he was "never a defender" in a back 4.

That is absolutely not snark, by the way - but I think we'd have to assume that a Johnston coming back off a full year out and coming into a back four is unlikely to be a reliable title winner.

[BWFC_Insane]

Worth noting that before we switched to a 3 some on here wanted Johnston out of the club, because he was "never a defender" in a back 4.

That is absolutely not snark, by the way - but I think we'd have to assume that a Johnston coming back off a full year out and coming into a back four is unlikely to be a reliable title winner.

I’d be reluctant too but I’d also make sure they have protection in front. Players to help head and kick it when necessary to take the pressure off the centre backs.

Johnston reads the game better than anyone we’ve got and I think if you say to him and Toal you are here to head it, kick it and keep it out and stop expecting them to be ‘playmakers’ we might have a chance. I’d absolutely want some centre back signings though anyway. I think we need a horrible nasty one in the squad.

[Worthy4England]

Worth noting that before we switched to a 3 some on here wanted Johnston out of the club, because he was "never a defender" in a back 4.

That is absolutely not snark, by the way - but I think we'd have to assume that a Johnston coming back off a full year out and coming into a back four is unlikely to be a reliable title winner.

Realistically, if, as a defensive unit, you're letting too much get to the backline, you either have to strengthen the unit so that less gets to them or strengthen the backline so it deals with "stuff" better.

We tightened the unit, great, that works.. Too often for me this season we've dropped the ball in situations you should expect the backline to deal with.

It's been poor. Only 1 promoted team in last 5 years conceded more than 51. That's not an advocacy to re-sign Tommy Caton. Just "we have to get better at it..

[GhostoftheBok]

I’d be reluctant too but I’d also make sure they have protection in front. Players to help head and kick it when necessary to take the pressure off the centre backs.

Johnston reads the game better than anyone we’ve got and I think if you say to him and Toal you are here to head it, kick it and keep it out and stop expecting them to be ‘playmakers’ we might have a chance. I’d absolutely want some centre back signings though anyway. I think we need a horrible nasty one in the squad.

Again, though, that goes against the calls for "leadership" in the back four. You're not getting that from Johnston and Toal from what we've seen thus far, though obviously players can have things you don't see.

Oxford have had two season of that Brown, Moore, Brannigan triangle playing 40+ games and swung between 19th and promotion. They've kept what worked and built around it.

So the question is, what do we have that genuinely works? There's no way that the answer is "nothing." That's the starting point. Then you fix the rest.

For Oxford it was a case of figuring out how to score goals off the back of a functioning defensive unit. Looks like the reverse for us, I assume we'd all agree?

If that's the case don't we just figure out how to fix the defending in this free-scoring system?

[BWFC_Insane]

I’d be reluctant too but I’d also make sure they have protection in front. Players to help head and kick it when necessary to take the pressure off the centre backs.

Johnston reads the game better than anyone we’ve got and I think if you say to him and Toal you are here to head it, kick it and keep it out and stop expecting them to be ‘playmakers’ we might have a chance. I’d absolutely want some centre back signings though anyway. I think we need a horrible nasty one in the squad.

Again, though, that goes against the calls for "leadership" in the back four. You're not getting that from Johnston and Toal from what we've seen thus far, though obviously players can have things you don't see.

Oxford have had two season of that Brown, Moore, Brannigan playing 40+ games and swung between 19th and promotion. They've kept what worked and built around it.

So the question is, what do we have that genuinely works? There's no way that the answer is "nothing." That's the starting point. Then you fix the rest.

For Oxford it was a case of figuring out how to score goals off the back of a functioning defensive unit. Looks like the reverse for us, I assume we'd all agree?

If that's the case don't we just figure out how to fix the defending in this free-scoring system?

Not for me. I think the changes needed to make ‘tweaks’ would be too expensive. If Sharon has the money to get top quality wing backs then we can maybe do that but I’m not seeing it likely.

[GhostoftheBok]

Not for me. I think the changes needed to make ‘tweaks’ would be too expensive. If Sharon has the money to get top quality wing backs then we can maybe do that but I’m not seeing it likely.

Is that true of any player we need in when we attach the words "top quality" to them?

Two "top quality" centre backs are likely to sound expensive. A "top quality back four" even more so.

[BWFC_Insane]

Not for me. I think the changes needed to make ‘tweaks’ would be too expensive. If Sharon has the money to get top quality wing backs then we can maybe do that but I’m not seeing it likely.

Is that true of any player we need in when we attach the words "top quality" to them?

Two "top quality" centre backs are likely to sound expensive. A "top quality back four" even more so.

There are fewer wing backs - they are highly specialised roles and I think the quality we need in those positions to specifically make this system work is exceptionally high. You are looking for players with everything in their game.

I don’t think it’s the same for example at centre half in a normal setup.

[GhostoftheBok]

There are fewer wing backs - they are highly specialised roles and I think the quality we need in those positions to specifically make this system work is exceptionally high. You are looking for players with everything in their game.

I don’t think it’s the same for example at centre half in a normal setup.

Evatts said previously he prefers a 4-3-3.

If his reaction to this season just gone is to switch I am fine with that.

Getting considerably better players than we have is likely to be expensive regardless, though. Not many clubs are letting leaders with real quality go. Switching to a 4-3-3 will likely mean we have to do more business than we otherwise would.

Guess we have to hope this new scouting and analysis relationship pays its way.

[BWFC_Insane]

There are fewer wing backs - they are highly specialised roles and I think the quality we need in those positions to specifically make this system work is exceptionally high. You are looking for players with everything in their game.

I don’t think it’s the same for example at centre half in a normal setup.

Evatts said previously he prefers a 4-3-3.

If his reaction to this season just gone is to switch I am fine with that.

Getting considerably better players than we have is likely to be expensive regardless, though. Not many clubs are letting leaders with real quality go. Switching to a 4-3-3 will likely mean we have to do more business than we otherwise would.

Guess we have to hope this new scouting and analysis relationship pays its way.

Specifically I’d say a 4231!