Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

[GhostoftheBok]

The idea you stick with Evatt for a whole season unless it’s ‘disastrous’ doesn’t make sense. Sunderland sacked Johnson, think they were third and went up.

Buckingham came in December and went up.

There are loads of examples of changing managers mid way through.

Evatt imo should be gone by now. But if we are off the pace after ten games it then isn’t a choice. He has to go.

Johnson got handed his arse 6-0, having already suffered damaging defeats. I'd say that counts as "disastrous."

The club can't go in half arsed and hit and hope. Everything has to be geared towards making Evatt a success this season, if he's it.

If they will not commit fully to him, he should go now. You can give examples of clubs going up after a change, but in most cases you want to give a manager a preseason.

If they don't believe Evatt can go up they should change now. If they do they have to go with that.

The assumption has to be that it's the decisions made now that will determine promotion, not that we can see how it goes and then fix it later.

[BWFC_Insane]

The idea you stick with Evatt for a whole season unless it’s ‘disastrous’ doesn’t make sense. Sunderland sacked Johnson, think they were third and went up.

Buckingham came in December and went up.

There are loads of examples of changing managers mid way through.

Evatt imo should be gone by now. But if we are off the pace after ten games it then isn’t a choice. He has to go.

Johnson got handed his arse 6-0, having already suffered damaging defeats. I'd say that counts as "disastrous."

The club can't go in half arsed and hit and hope. Everything has to be geared towards making Evatt a success this season, if he's it.

If they will not commit fully to him, he should go now. You can give examples of clubs going up after a change, but in most cases you want to give a manager a preseason.

If they don't believe Evatt can go up they should change now. If they do they have to go with that.

The assumption has to be that it's the decisions made now that will determine promotion, not that we can see how it goes and then fix it later.

Boards are often split. Which is what leads to ‘see how it goes’. Given Sharon isn’t the only one calling the shots it wouldn’t shock me to be in that territory.

But if we need to go up automatically and are after ten games more than a few points off the pace that’s disastrous in this league.

If Evatt stays then he has to deliver from the off consistently against the expectations of what will be rightly angry fans. If he doesn’t believe he can or doesn’t fancy that then he shouldn’t stay.

[Worthy4England]

The idea you stick with Evatt for a whole season unless it’s ‘disastrous’ doesn’t make sense. Sunderland sacked Johnson, think they were third and went up.

Buckingham came in December and went up.

There are loads of examples of changing managers mid way through.

Evatt imo should be gone by now. But if we are off the pace after ten games it then isn’t a choice. He has to go.

Johnson got handed his arse 6-0, having already suffered damaging defeats. I'd say that counts as "disastrous."

The club can't go in half arsed and hit and hope. Everything has to be geared towards making Evatt a success this season, if he's it.

If they will not commit fully to him, he should go now. You can give examples of clubs going up after a change, but in most cases you want to give a manager a preseason.

If they don't believe Evatt can go up they should change now. If they do they have to go with that.

The assumption has to be that it's the decisions made now that will determine promotion, not that we can see how it goes and then fix it later.

Johnson was in about the same place as Derby on 30 Jan this year - one point behind with us having 2 games in hand in second - two different decisions, two different outcomes. That's obviously a "confidence" thing (or maybe a confidence + money thing)

I genuinely like the notion of "plans" but you need to also understand when they're not going to work and be ready to adapt them.

There isn't for me an unreserved entire season commitment (which I know you're not suggesting the same), but what happens if we're same as this season, we came close, just not close enough - would we be confident he's not going to set us up to choke again? I mean you're not going to change him at that point, you're just gonna have to trust in the process. The one that ultimately failed us last year and failed us this.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

How did it work out for Sunderland when they sacked their manager this season?

These things can go either way.

[GhostoftheBok]

Everyone in key positions at the club has to be behind whatever choice is made, or it is more likely to fail.

If Evatt doesn't have that support get someone who does. If he does, back him.

I've been in a football club where people sat on the fence and held things back from a manager in case they needed to replace him. It was a fecking disaster.

By the time the decision was finally made we'd missed the boat on solutions that would almost certainly have changed things completely.

Make a call. Put your big kid pants on and commit to it fully. Anything less than that gets you nowhere. If the board keeps Evatt, but doesn't provide him the resources they would give a newly appointed manager...well, we're cooked.

That's a real concern for me if he stays. Likewise the atmosphere around the place has to be one of absolute drive, not hanging on to see how it goes. Again, that'll kill it stone dead.

[Worthy4England]

How did it work out for Sunderland when they sacked their manager this season?

These things can go either way.

Aye, and has been said, Buckingham didn't do consistently flawless, so I'm not sure there's much point in favouring one position over t'other.

[Worthy4England]

Everyone in key positions at the club has to be behind whatever choice is made, or it is more likely to fail.

If Evatt doesn't have that support get someone who does. If he does, back him.

I've been in a football club where people sat on the fence and held things back from a manager in case they needed to replace him. It was a fecking disaster.

By the time the decision was finally made we'd missed the boat on solutions that would almost certainly have changed things completely.

Make a call. Put your big kid pants on and commit to it fully. Anything less than that gets you nowhere. If the board keeps Evatt, but doesn't provide him the resources they would give a newly appointed manager...well, we're cooked.

That's a real concern for me if he stays. Likewise the atmosphere around the place has to be one of absolute drive, not hanging on to see how it goes. Again, that'll kill it stone dead.

I'm happy to make a call. Can I?

[GhostoftheBok]

Aye, and has been said, Buckingham didn't do consistently flawless, so I'm not sure there's much point in favouring one position over t'other.

...and McKenna won 1 in 8 mid season with Ipswich. He then won 8 in a row.

[GhostoftheBok]

I'm happy to make a call. Can I?

We can take it in turns like the Chuckle Brothers..."In...Out...In...Out"

Just been struck by the horrible image of Chuckle Brothers porn.

[Worthy4England]

Aye, and has been said, Buckingham didn't do consistently flawless, so I'm not sure there's much point in favouring one position over t'other.

...and McKenna won 1 in 8 mid season with Ipswich. He then won 8 in a row.

...and Evatt was 2 points adrift with 3 games in hand, and lost out by 5 points - all a bit ner, ner, na, ner, ner. And doesn't convince me, as I've said, that stick is always the best option - including in mid-season.

[Worthy4England]

I'm happy to make a call. Can I?

We can take it in turns like the Chuckle Brothers..."In...Out...In...Out"

Just been struck by the horrible image of Chuckle Brothers porn.

Lets try this slightly differently.

I think (whatever the view of the respective strengths of the Division next season), that anything below play-offs would certainly be disaster - I suspect you agree. I could absolutely see a scenario where we are at least broadly in touch all year and don't quite make the autos, at which point we're at the same failure point. What is the decision point? We'd expect any manager with the investment we've had to be pretty competitive, so he's going to be pretty competitive.

10th after 10 games, it's probably a very easy decision for everyone. But I doubt either of us thinks that's the "likely scenario"...The likely scenario - we hope, I guess - is that we're there or there abouts.

What you're selling me, is unless it's an unmitigated cock-up, we're stuck with him whatever, until the season is done. He deserved that last season, for me, not this.

[GhostoftheBok]

Lets try this slightly differently.

I think (whatever the view of the respective strengths of the Division next season), that anything below play-offs would certainly be disaster - I suspect you agree. I could absolutely see a scenario where we are at least broadly in touch all year and don't quite make the autos, at which point we're at the same failure point. What is the decision point? We'd expect any manager with the investment we've had to be pretty competitive, so he's going to be pretty competitive.

10th after 10 games, it's probably a very easy decision for everyone. But I doubt either of us thinks that's the "likely scenario"...The likely scenario - we hope, I guess - is that we're there or there abouts.

What you're selling me, is unless it's an unmitigated cock-up, we're stuck with him whatever, until the season is done. He deserved that last season, for me, not this.

Well, we can take this differently.

Evatt is 30 games in and in 3rd, 2 points off Huddersfield in #1.

Do you sack him? You'd have sacked him in the summer, so does he have to be 10 points clear to stay in his job? Anything less people will probably be wondering if we'll drop off.

If we stick with him then "competitive" has got to keep him in his job, with the expectation he stays so. If there are 4 games left and he'd a point off the autos are we sacking him? If the answer is "YES!" then that's clearly mental and nobody can manage in that situation.

Like I say, if to keep his job he has to basically win every football match all season then that's effectively sacking him before a ball is kicked.

[BWFC_Insane]

Lets try this slightly differently.

I think (whatever the view of the respective strengths of the Division next season), that anything below play-offs would certainly be disaster - I suspect you agree. I could absolutely see a scenario where we are at least broadly in touch all year and don't quite make the autos, at which point we're at the same failure point. What is the decision point? We'd expect any manager with the investment we've had to be pretty competitive, so he's going to be pretty competitive.

10th after 10 games, it's probably a very easy decision for everyone. But I doubt either of us thinks that's the "likely scenario"...The likely scenario - we hope, I guess - is that we're there or there abouts.

What you're selling me, is unless it's an unmitigated cock-up, we're stuck with him whatever, until the season is done. He deserved that last season, for me, not this.

Well, we can take this differently.

Evatt is 30 games in and in 3rd, 2 points off Huddersfield in #1.

Do you sack him? You'd have sacked him in the summer, so does he have to be 10 points clear to stay in his job? Anything less people will probably be wondering if we'll drop off.

If we stick with him then "competitive" has got to keep him in his job, with the expectation he stays so. If there are 4 games left and he'd a point off the autos are we sacking him? If the answer is "YES!" then that's clearly mental and nobody can manage in that situation.

Like I say, if to keep his job he has to basically win every football match all season then that's effectively sacking him before a ball is kicked.

Context matters. If we are top in January then slide and end up 3rd he’s repeated the same thing this season. So I’d say ‘has to go’.

Ultimately I have zero faith or belief in Evatt and think at best it’s same again but more likely we aren’t as close. He’s shown us what he’s about and what he can do. It’s not been good enough. I’m sick of being a soft touch.

He has to be entirely judged on delivering promotion and fixing all the faults and failures he hasn’t done for two years. So if he shows he can’t do that at any point I don’t see why we’d keep him.

The world doesn’t work like ‘oh we’ve either got to fully commit to him or not’ in fact the worst decisions are made in that way. What caused us ultimately to tumble down the leagues was Coyle not being sacked when it was blatantly obvious he was taking us down. He kept us in it till the last game of the season but I’d known for a long long long time before that he was taking us down. He should have gone in November.

So I think if he’s lucky enough (and it would be very very very lucky) to be here next season he needs to manage in the manner of a man who is very very very fortunate to be here. This is a great club and he’s nothing. He needs to adopt that view and deliver.

[dave the minion]

Well, I'd argue its a once-great club that is trying to become great again, but is a long way from it.

I'd also argue he's not nothing - until he's not, he is our manager and as long as he is he needs our support.

Why the hell should he adopt such a disrespectful view from an anonymous internet poster?

[GhostoftheBok]

The world doesn’t work like ‘oh we’ve either got to fully commit to him or not’

It's the only way football works.

Coyle is a prime example of just that issue. We kept him on through a summer to "see how it went" and could have fixed a lot of issues by sacking him. When we did sack him, after not giving him what he asked for in case the new guy needed backing, the best options were gone.

[Worthy4England]

Indeed and echos my point, unless it's pretty clear cut. Sort of the loitering in 10th scenario (albeit someone will point to us being 19th in D2 in December), there is unlikely to be a significant shout of "SHARKS" until one fatally bites...

Was ok with that last year, but not this. He pretty much has to stay top 2 from early doors to keep me convinced because he's shown twice that he/we aren't great at play-offs. What's our record under him? P5, W1, D1, L3 F7 A8?

[BWFC_Insane]

The world doesn’t work like ‘oh we’ve either got to fully commit to him or not’

It's the only way football works.

Coyle is a prime example of just that issue. We kept him on through a summer to "see how it went" and could have fixed a lot of issues by sacking him. When we did sack him, after not giving him what he asked for in case the new guy needed backing, the best options were gone.

That’s not what happened with Coyle but ok.

Loads of clubs sack managers all the time. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t. But given last season we failed we can argue that keeping the manager didn’t work.

[GhostoftheBok]

That’s not what happened with Coyle but ok.

Literally worked there at the time and was directly involved, but okay.

[BWFC_Insane]

That’s not what happened with Coyle but ok.

Literally worked there at the time and was directly involved, but okay.

By the relegation Gartside was already in full on disaster mitigation mode. He was trying to persuade Eddie not to turn the taps off and already knew it was a trickle at best. It was already too late. Coyle should have gone in the November the season before. Not making that decision was fateful. I think not that long into that champo season he’d already started trying to find backing to buy the club from ED as he knew things wouldn’t last for that long. He said that we had to stick with the manager and back him as persuading ED to keep putting money in with a new manager would be impossible. The line was ‘a blip’ we were unlucky we will get back. But I don’t think it made a lot of difference. When we lost to Villa at home Coyle should have been sent packing then. Think Phil knew it too.

[GhostoftheBok]

By the relegation Gartside was already in full on disaster mitigation mode. He was trying to persuade Eddie not to turn the taps off and already knew it was a trickle at best. It was already too late. Coyle should have gone in the November the season before. Not making that decision was fateful. I think not that long into that champo season he’d already started trying to find backing to buy the club from ED as he knew things wouldn’t last for that long. He said that we had to stick with the manager and back him as persuading ED to keep putting money in with a new manager would be impossible. The line was ‘a blip’ we were unlucky we will get back. But I don’t think it made a lot of difference. When we lost to Villa at home Coyle should have been sent packing then. Think Phil knew it too.

I don't understand what you're hoping to do here.

You're relating events to me that I was there for.

I was speaking to Phil almost every day at this point. I was at Euxton with Owen discussing his processes.

I'm genuinely lost as to what makes you think you can teach me about my own life during this period.