Tonight's Football

[TANGODANCER]

Blaming Harry Kane is totally wrong; when did he ever get the space to attack that half-a-dozen Spaniards did? He was man-marked and savaged on the rare occasions he actually got the ball with anybody in sight to help him. I've already pointed out that none of the recognised front men broke any pots in the tournament. My wife doesn't watch football, but last night she did with me. The number of times she said "surely, that's a foul"? left her admitting she no longer understands the game. (Actually, she isn't alone there.)

All we can do now is admit we lost and say "Well done Spain, you got it right, we didn't ".

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

He just doesn't understand how it all fits together. I'm far less annoyed tonight than Croatia or Italy. Tonight we got beaten be a v good team. But it has to be thank you and farewell now.

Kane is fine, he just needs pace around him.

They had fecking Alvaro Morata up top but they had a threat. He settled on the best version of a flawed concept. He's a good egg. But despite the song, he's not the one.

Give your head a shake Pru, footballis a team game and all 11 need to muck in.
This tournament Kane has been so far off the game, he's took the p#ss out of the others.
Oh but what about his goals in the earlier games some cry out, well seriously, hardly world class were they? I mean they were so good nobody else could have scored them
Sorry, Kane can jog on now, the second Spanish goal he wouldn't have scored, he'd still be on the halfway line.
Bye, bye Harry, don't let the door....
Just found it a little intriguing that when Kane went off, Bellingham seemed to improve a bit from what, earlier, had been another lack lustre performance. Three at the back left us wide open on the flanks and we paid the price.
Me, I'd have gone 4 1 4 1 formation but the front one wouldn't be Kane.

Pru is right (just don't let on eh ). Kane needs runners around him and our cautious approach meant he didn't have them. You either approach the game to Kane's strengths or don't play him. As a whole we didn't play to our strengths and looked to contain Spain and hope for a bit of magic from someone. We got away with it all tournament, but against a better side than previous games it wasn't enough.

Southgate has done exceptionally well to get us to where we are, but it now feels like a wasted opportunity as it needed a different approach this time/

[BWFC_Insane]

Kane's strength is in the box yet he seems determined to play in midfield. Played walking football the whole tournament.

He's no Lineker who genuinely did come alive in the box. Kane might be a better finisher but he's got to be there and on his toes not in midfield having a stroll.

He doesn't need runners he needs a rocket.

[officer_dibble]

Aye. He had runners - usually foden or Bellingham further up the fecking pitch! Several breaks resulted in cut backs to no-one across all the knockout games. Because he can’t have been fit enough to be in the box!

He may need a break, an operation, whatever and come back fine but there should have been a better plan than play shite for an hour then sub him.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Whenever Bellingham and Foden were up the pitch there were about 8 Spaniards there too. Not saying kane played well, but we definitely didn't play to his strengths. For me Bellingham and Foden were too busy in the midfield battle to do much else.

[Prufrock]

Foden and Bellingham don't hurt teams in behind. The way we set up with Foden Kane and Bellingham as the front three, and Saka deeper meant they could defend the halfway line and squash the space meaning we had even less of the ball. Kane's best games for England came with two of Rashford, Sterling and Saka right up there with him. Ditto with Son at Spurs and Bayern's flying wingers.

[BWFC_Insane]

Foden and Bellingham don't hurt teams in behind. The way we set up with Foden Kane and Bellingham as the front three, and Saka deeper meant they could defend the halfway line and squash the space meaning we had even less of the ball. Kane's best games for England came with two of Rashford, Sterling and Saka right up there with him. Ditto with Son at Spurs and Bayern's flying wingers.

When we did hurt them in behind, Kane was nowhere to be found. So I think that what you say is partially correct - we setup poorly to beat Spain. But Kane's total immobility and lack of desire to get on the end of things in the box was a huge problem.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Foden and Bellingham don't hurt teams in behind. The way we set up with Foden Kane and Bellingham as the front three, and Saka deeper meant they could defend the halfway line and squash the space meaning we had even less of the ball. Kane's best games for England came with two of Rashford, Sterling and Saka right up there with him. Ditto with Son at Spurs and Bayern's flying wingers.

...and this is the fundamental problem for whoever manages England towards the 60-years-of-hurt mark – and possibly beyond into the next Euros, when football will actually come home, as we're hosting it.

Kane is a very good striker, but he wasn't this summer. That was partially medical, partially tactical. As you say, he has been brilliant when paired with runners beyond - I can't remember an English striker so adept at both 9 and 10. At his best he's been able to drop deep – which always causes defending teams a problem at least in the transition – and then accurately pick out those runners. It has worked, repeatedly. It still might - but only with the right team-mates.

This summer, he has clearly been way way way below his best; if he were a phone, his battery would be flashing red. He's never been the most physically graceful player but he has looked to me like a man carrying an injury or at least fearful of reigniting it. He's done the "dropping deep" bit but with neither the wide support players to hit or with the pace/energy to make up the yards himself.

Question is, what next? He's 31 this month, hence nearly 33 for the next World Cup, nearly 35 for the home Euros. There may be a role for him in those campaigns, but it would be a risk for a manager to build a team round him a la Ronaldo's Portugal. That would be a concern no matter who the team-mates were, but among the options in England's fron two lines are Bellingham, Foden and increasingly Palmer - none of whom fit the 'pacy outrider' role. Saka does to an extent but has been somewhat sacrificed, either in a wing-back role or last night doubling up to help Walker with Williams/Cucurella.

So the next manager has to decide whether to construct a system that allieviates Kane's weaknesses, thus potentially underusing some of the best young players in Europe - or to relegate the country's record goalscorer and build around say the pace of Watkins. It's not an easy decision for those operating in the real world with actual humans and feelings and reputations and team spirit and an intensely interested audience of millions, rather than just writing anonymously on the internet on a side-forum of a third-tier football club.

[BWFC_Insane]

^^ I think any England manager has the role of picking the 'best side' which is not always the 'best 11' players on paper. See 66....

I've seen a few say that player for player we are better than Spain (which may be overstretching things given the youth in that side and where it might end up) but certainly they were a better sum of their parts than we were.

We shoehorned in a lot of the same type, who want to play in the same areas, but actually with different styles and it looked disjointed. I'm not convinced that there is a team that works with Bellingham and Foden in it - not really. Unless maybe you put Jude into a number 8 role. But Bellingham is a hard runner, impact round the box type (almost Nolan like) and feeds off a more counter punch type of game whereas Foden needs a high press and players round him able to move it quickly to thrive. It was notable how Bellingham could not pass the ball on quickly - he's a different sort. Palmer a different type again, somewhere in between a wide forward and a number 10. Not the physicality of Bellingham nor the feet of Foden but a slinky, jinky type who can also score goals. But they don't to me look like they are easy to fit into a team together.

A new manager has to look first at the centre of midfield. Which was (as has been mostly under Southgate) woeful. Spain were glorious in there, even without their first choice midfield they made Rice and Mainoo look like the mugs they are. We need to look beyond and try some options in there. Wharton should have had a chance as he feels to me like the exact sort we lacked. Eze adds quality and Bellingham may have fared better back there.

Good players can get you a long way in a tournament but I think 99% of the time you also need to be the best 'team' and a better team will mainly trump better individuals.

[Hoboh]

Actually I'm not the biggest fan of Rice but I think there's a Campo style place in front of a back four for him if he perfects his passing a touch.

[Worthy4England]

Foden and Bellingham don't hurt teams in behind. The way we set up with Foden Kane and Bellingham as the front three, and Saka deeper meant they could defend the halfway line and squash the space meaning we had even less of the ball. Kane's best games for England came with two of Rashford, Sterling and Saka right up there with him. Ditto with Son at Spurs and Bayern's flying wingers.

When we did hurt them in behind, Kane was nowhere to be found. So I think that what you say is partially correct - we setup poorly to beat Spain. But Kane's total immobility and lack of desire to get on the end of things in the box was a huge problem.

We talk about his immobility, but I'm not sure that's what I saw, really, he ran further and faster than Dani Olmo - for example - covered nearly twice as much ground as M'Bappe and a chunk more than Yamal - etc. etc. I think it was as much the players finding the ball to him, as it was him finding the ball (albeit you want both happening ). I don't think he suited out gameplan nor that our gameplan suited him...

I think DSB put up a pass map or similar, which showed the game pretty much went right round him!

[Prufrock]

I certainly don't think Kane has been great, and all fair points about the future. I'd still be picking him but I can arguments the other way.

Unless you're going to be confident of having 60% possession in every single game which isn't really in our football DNA, then you're always going to need pace in behind.

Saka gives that on one side, and he have options in the other. Think Gordon should have played, and I wouldn't write Rashford off permanently.

The only way you can get Foden, Kane and Bellingham in the same team is Bellingham at 8, for me. I think it's a real error that we still haven't seen that particularly well after we've seen fecking Trent and Gallagher in there.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I think DSB put up a pass map or similar, which showed the game pretty much went right round him!

That was the Swiss game. Compared to last night's, it looks the like a model workflow.

england_switzerland_network_2024-07-06.png (455.11 KiB) Viewed 304552 times

england_spain_network_2024-07-14-1.png (231.4 KiB) Viewed 304552 times

I certainly don't think Kane has been great, and all fair points about the future. I'd still be picking him but I can arguments the other way. Unless you're going to be confident of having 60% possession in every single game which isn't really in our football DNA, then you're always going to need pace in behind. Saka gives that on one side, and he have options in the other. Think Gordon should have played, and I wouldn't write Rashford off permanently. The only way you can get Foden, Kane and Bellingham in the same team is Bellingham at 8, for me. I think it's a real error that we still haven't seen that particularly well after we've seen fecking Trent and Gallagher in there.

Aye, Rashford is far from washed-up. Grealish a potential matchwinner too. Sterling's still only 29 and Chelsea might improve this season. Bowen's useful to have around, Gordon and Eze could be great.

There's a talent pool, and that leads to hard decisions. If Bellingham's deeper in midfield, does that mean we sacrifice Mainoo, who looked far beyond his 19 years? What about Wharton? Palmer? Obviously it's better that we have more than 11 decent players - it just means that the decisions are harder.

Personally I think we will miss Kyle Walker when he goes. He's not infallible - never was - but having someone so speedy and experienced who can play centre-back, full back, wingback and still bomb on past Saka is a hella skillset. Hopefully Reece James can stay fit and kick on, and if Steve Holland leaves the set-up Ben White might come back in. (There's also Trent to consider, but that's another worm-can.)

Very impressed with Guehi and Konsa did nowt wrong either. Shame Trafford didn't get the big-tournament background experience rather than Henderson. But we've got a bunch of youngser players coming through who look very decent. Wonder if the FA will be tempted to go with Lee Carsley, to maintain some continuity even while addressing some necessary changes?

[Worthy4England]

Last night's looks glum...

Shaw did better than I thought he might containing Yamal - but we need someone younger there now, too.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Shaw did better than I thought he might containing Yamal - but we need someone younger there now, too.

Had an excellent first half but as I said to a mate at half-time - defenders have to be right all the time, attackers only need to get it right once. (Unless their team also concedes, but you get the point.) Not that either goal was particularly his fault and I think the slot is his by default for now. He only turned 29 this week so (pending fitness and form) he should have a full four-year cycle left, if not as first choice then in the mix. There's nobody exceptional pushing him...

Regarding age - Walker is 34, Trippier is 34 in a couple of months - they're surely to be, at best, phased out. Next oldest is Dunk (32, meh) then Kane (31 this month). Pickford's just turned 30 but he's fine for now. Stones is 30 so we need to replace him before too long - he should be OK for World Cup 2026.

Up front is a bit of a succession problem. For nearly 40 years we've had a production line of historically good strikers, more or less in a line with only brief overlaps - Lineker, Shearer, Owen, Rooney, Kane. I don't see anyone bursting into that succession line and staying such a long time. Watkins and Toney are decent but are both 28. Bowen's 27. Saka's 22 but he's slightly different. We seem to produce more "second line" players - 11s, 10s, 7s - than 9s.

[Mar]

Apparently Kane had an injury when playing for England. Kane didn't want to let Southgate down so played and Southgate didn't want to let Kane down and played him. Sounds like neither had the balls to take the decision and say this isn't working, heck Kane only seemed to come off when he actually had chance to discuss with one another, almost as if it was Kane's decision to stay on the field or not (Spain match aside).

He's been loyal, to a fault. It must've been so frustrating for the players to look at Kane up top, injured and underperforming.

It's forgivable if its done once or twice, but its been clear this tournament that it was a constant problem.
I like Kane and Southgate, but the fact that as a squad it wasnt changed, should be clear factor for sorting out going forward. We got lucky with the group stage, lucky with the tournament layout, and lucky we played the teams we did. We had a worse xG than Croatia did in the tournament.

Euro 2024: Serbia, Denmark, Slovenia, Slovakia, Switzerland, Netherlands, Spain.

The moment we reached a decent team, we got beat. Every other team we'd be expected to beat, given our players. Compare that to the last tournament:

Euro 2020: Croatia, Scotland, Czech Republic, Germany, Ukraine, Denmark, Italy

We actually performed, Croatia, Germany and Italy are all teams we played against and delivered, going out on pens in the final.


It's not like we succeeded previously, getting relegated in the nations league against Germany, Hungary and Italy (3 draws, 3 losses from 6 games). Say what you want about the nations league, but we were in it like the rest.

The World Cup (2022), saw us reach expectation and go out to the first strong team we faced.
6-2 Iran, 0-0 USA, 3-0 Wales, 3-0 Senegal, 1-2 France.


It seems, we're doing aswell as expected and not outdoing what we'd expect.




The Euro 2020 was great. The fact we've got as far as we have in these tournaments under Southgate has been great, but its hard not to see us getting there on slices of luck and favourable draws.

Every other tournament we've had in our history has seen us go out against tougher opposition and prior to Southgate, going out to worse opposition (Iceland).

Southgate managed to change the narrative and fair play to him. Getting penalty wins against Columbia, twice against Switzerland may make us feel better, but you'd have to put an argument forward for not getting to a penalty shootout in the first place.

[Mar]

Up front is a bit of a succession problem. For nearly 40 years we've had a production line of historically good strikers, more or less in a line with only brief overlaps - Lineker, Shearer, Owen, Rooney, Kane. I don't see anyone bursting into that succession line and staying such a long time. Watkins and Toney are decent but are both 28. Bowen's 27. Saka's 22 but he's slightly different. We seem to produce more "second line" players - 11s, 10s, 7s - than 9s.

Seems like we've very much had the approach where we can only have one striker up top, our main man so to speak.

It's not like we've actually sought to get an alternative to the front man in case theres an injury. Rooney breaking records, Kane breaking records, seem to have some sense to it, but both Kane and Rooney had negative impacts on tournaments due to carrying injuries.

We've had the likes of Darren Bent on fire but not getting a sniff. Almost as if we dare go down a different route. Same happened again with Toney and Watkins. We've got good players in backup, but we barely notice their ability as we don't give them a try. We were playing Kane in the build up to the cup when we already know what he brings to the table.

It's not just a Southgate problem either, we've seen that with previous managers.

Our next big striker, i'll be more than happy if they're not trying to break Kanes record as long as they're competing with another big striking option we've got.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Up front is a bit of a succession problem. For nearly 40 years we've had a production line of historically good strikers, more or less in a line with only brief overlaps - Lineker, Shearer, Owen, Rooney, Kane. I don't see anyone bursting into that succession line and staying such a long time. Watkins and Toney are decent but are both 28. Bowen's 27. Saka's 22 but he's slightly different. We seem to produce more "second line" players - 11s, 10s, 7s - than 9s.

Seems like we've very much had the approach where we can only have one striker up top, our main man so to speak.

Nah mate I disagree on this - throughout the majority of that 40 years we've played two up top. It's just a bit of a quirk that it's been one record-chasing "main man" after another.

On your other point, though, this is an interesting (if combative) way to look at it:

[TANGODANCER]

Just as a point: If just one of those three headers had gone in, and we had prevented that last injury time goal despite how unfair it might have been to Spain, we could be European champions today. Such is life and football.

[Prufrock]

Everyone is having that number 9 issue, kids want to play wide and come in. No-one wants to get kicked up in the air back to goal through the middle.

That's what makes the Southgate time the most galling for me. He's overlapped with the entire prime of one if the only world class number 9s in the world.

Germany and messing about with Havertz or a decent but not special lad. France playing wingers there. Spain stuck with Morata. Portugal a pensionable covered winger or other wingers.