Down in The Valley, something stirred. V Charlton Athletic away Sat Aug 24th 3-0 'clock.

[irie Cee Bee]

I will not judge Evatt so early. New players, new system etc.. but he must stop the love affair with Sheehan and Charles and start Ade and Matete. He must stop trying to be a football scientist and be practical. The players are struggling to play his system so he must adapt to them and play simple 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 systems that most players know how to play in. This one million passes around their 18 yard box until the ball is passed back to our CH makes me hold my head in bewilderment. Why can't someone just hit it, A lot of goals are scored from deflections. Not panicking yet but Evatts style may work in higher divisions with players who have the skills to go past players in tight quarters. Our current team have no such players. Change it and get back to basics.

[Prufrock]

Well that was a fun read.

Bolton 2-0 Bolton.

Beat ourselves. I really don't think that was that bad. But in the context it weighs heavy and there isn't a lot of goodwill. We'll finish above them. We went away from home matched the physicality, stopped them playing, dominated between the boxes. The stuff that if you repeat that over a season you're very successful.

But the two boxes... Oh dear. We did all the hard bit of defending and then gifted them two goals. And all the hard bit of attacking getting into great positions and then decisions and runs we made from there. Dear me. First half maybe six times we were bang on the press, won it 4v3 and just.... Nothing.

Generously, that front three in those areas has to click. And we won't gift big goals at important times. Ungenerously.... Yeah.

[GhostoftheBok]

Generally fair.

If Charlton's and our performances were reversed we'd probably have said they were the better side and we got gifted goals.

As it is we look at them as solid and deserving their luck.

The emotions of the game.

They took their chances. Fair play to them.

Ultimately we have played 4 games and not put in a genuinely good performance in any of them.

It has got to improve.

[Mar]

I'm confused as to why anyone, after the play off final where we lost Maghoma in the centre of the pitch and got overrun in midfield, would think that less bodies in the middle of the park would make us more challenging as a team.

I see why Evatt is doing it in terms of giving forwards room to play and press the opposition, but defensively it just baffles me as to why. Surely a Muamba or Campo type is the order of the day.

Heck if Rico is likely to be defensively suspect at times then put him just in front of the defenders. Campo was shocking at CB but amazing a CDM. Maybe that would suit Rico better, ball winning like Muamba and offers a physical presence we've been missing in the mid.

[BWFC_Insane]

With the caveat that managerial win percentage is heavily dependent on context.

Yes, it is. Equally, a manager can do a good job at a club for years and then plateau and need replacing.

The fact a manager gets sacked doesn't mean he was the wrong appointment, or that he should have been sacked years ago.

You can also show too much loyalty for past achievements.

If Evatt does get sacked this season he'll leave us vastly better off than he found us and any new manager will have a lot to thank him for.

We've signed some talented players and backed this manager heavily. We will likely back him more in the next week. Sacking him now would be a bizarre decision when anything up to half the squad will have just shown up to play for him.

However, he's been backed to go up. If that starts to look impossible he'll have to go.

You either sacked him immediately after the final, or you give him a full chance this season. We've gone with the latter, so stick with it.

The last sentence makes no sense. If things are going badly why let another season slip by in failure?

Changing managers is no guarantee but when a manager has hit a ceiling then you need to be decisive.

In the summer we hear Evatt was given time to decide if he still wanted to be here, this worries me. He’s a lower league manager trying to make it. Like hundreds of others. Allardyce deservedly put himself in a position where he was untouchable and even though he had clearly proven himself as a top level manager it still ended badly. Evatt has probably two decades to go to get even close to that level and yet we are somehow letting him decide if he fancies it or not.

I do think the club has become too comfortable. There is a balance. Nobody wants a manager sacked every 6 months. But I think top to bottom it’s a bit too comfortable, nice and complacent. We need to find a nasty ruthless side in more ways than one.

[TANGODANCER]

So Insaney, you want a guarantee that we'll go up, or sack the manager or don't appoint him in the first place? As a supporter you absolutely baffle me. Not a manager of any team in the world can guarantee anything other than give of their best. We know big clubs need success to offset the crazy amounts of debt they run up, not as sports, but financial businesses, but even they buy their success edged with a fair slice of hope added. How then can a team in the third division guaranteed anything? Stockport, Birmingham, Charlton... where will they be in a month? Can any of their managers guarantee that?

There's no Divine right in football and it's all about luck and attitude, oh, and fat wallets. The rest, like Mr Dylan said, is "Blowing in the wind". Que Sera.

[officer_dibble]

We’ve had a pretty fat wallet for this division TD. OK not Birmingham but we’ve spent in the last 3 windows…£3 million plus on the forward line alone I reckon.

[BWFC_Insane]

So Insaney, you want a guarantee that we'll go up, or sack the manager or don't appoint him in the first place? As a supporter you absolutely baffle me. Not a manager of any team in the world can guarantee anything other than give of their best. We know big clubs need success to offset the crazy amounts of debt they run up, not as sports, but financial businesses, but even they buy their success edged with a fair slice of hope added. How then can a team in the third division guaranteed anything? Stockport, Birmingham, Charlton... where will they be in a month? Can any of their managers guarantee that?

There's no Divine right in football and it's all about luck and attitude, oh, and fat wallets. The rest, like Mr Dylan said, is "Blowing in the wind".

There is no guarantee of anything - what I want is a manger tuned in to the realities of taking a big club out of league one at the top end.

Evatt is not, I'm afraid. The naivety might have been novel once but after the last two seasons it’s not. This is a tough league - I feel broadly we have the players to get out of it - a few alterations needed but broadly this group has some very good talent. What we don’t have is an ability to go up playing the system and style Evatt insists on. Wembley showed that. Yet we persist.

[Bertie Wooster]

We’ve had a pretty fat wallet for this division TD. OK not Birmingham but we’ve spent in the last 3 windows…£3 million plus on the forward line alone I reckon.

Yes I do wonder what the investors will be thinking after backing Evatt with another £2M-£3M this season, after the investments last season, because I'm certain the money hasn't come from SB's pocket.

It's fairly obvious that Evatt as stubborn as he is, won't rip up his 5 at the back so he needs to go back to 5-3-2 as we are wide open in central midfield with only the 2 especially Sheehan being one of them. If we are to bring in 1 more signing this week (loan or permanent) for me it needs to be the 'midfield bastard' that many have been asking for, as its certainly not Arfield.

Evatt just needs to stop over complicating the way we play & let the players go out and express themselves more - we have the players now, there is no point having the majority of possession if you do nothing with it.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Insaney, you're conflating fact and opinion when you talk of ceilings. You think he has but Sharon and others think not. Even if he's booted out next month, or throws a strop and walks away, it doesn't mean he's hit his ceiling fact. You may well be right, but that can only be judged years from now when he's had a career.

As things stand now he has everything to prove, and I think many of us have a lot of doubts. He's made changes and we're seeing the same mistakes. A few more games will tell if it is players not yet settled in the new system or a bigger problem. I get you think its the latter, but as with anything new it can take a little getting used to. Give it some time. I had major doubts too, but at least give it a chance.

[BWFC_Insane]

Insaney, you're conflating fact and opinion when you talk of ceilings. You think he has but Sharon and others think not. Even if he's booted out next month, or throws a strop and walks away, it doesn't mean he's hit his ceiling fact. You may well be right, but that can only be judged years from now when he's had a career.

As things stand now he has everything to prove, and I think many of us have a lot of doubts. He's made changes and we're seeing the same mistakes. A few more games will tell if it is players not yet settled in the new system or a bigger problem. I get you think its the latter, but as with anything new it can take a little getting used to. Give it some time. I had major doubts too, but at least give it a chance.

I agree with you in terms of what Sharon thinks. I’m not suggesting that. I’m saying IF she was to think ‘he’s hit a ceiling’ or it’s ’just not working’ or whatever it makes no sense to say ‘well we give him this season’.

But I don’t think he will be sacked regardless. I’m frustrated that there is imho a very very likely chance that we simply waste yet another season with this and then who knows what happens. I’m just fed up with being in this league and after Wembley we needed to see some real fire.

[Bertie Wooster]

I agree with you in terms of what Sharon thinks. I’m not suggesting that. I’m saying IF she was to think ‘he’s hit a ceiling’ or it’s ’just not working’ or whatever it makes no sense to say ‘well we give him this season’.

But I don’t think he will be sacked regardless. I’m frustrated that there is imho a very very likely chance that we simply waste yet another season with this and then who knows what happens. I’m just fed up with being in this league and after Wembley we needed to see some real fire.

Its not Evatt's way, he still thinks (even after apparently reflecting in the summer) that we can still tippy tappy pass our way out of league 1, when many /most other managers don't. He isn't going to change, therefore I doubt that the style of football will change.

When you watch highlights of other games (in all leagues) you see teams scoring great goals, exciting fast play, players collecting the ball in their own half and running at pace the length of the pitch at the opposition - taking players on, quick 1-2's, long range shots, getting fans excited out of their seats - we don't get that very often (if at all) with Evatt, its all so methodical, turgid & dull.

I've seen other BWFC fans suggesting that if we had the same chances that Charlton scored from yesterday, we wouldn't have scored as instead of shooting we would have stopped & either passed backwards or sideways with another 10 passes trying to score the perfect goal. We have been awful in 2024 so far, only a 1 in 3 win rate - at times prior to Xmas and the season before we played quicker, we moved the ball quicker with more intensity and tempo, I really don't know what's changed since the new year but we have gone backwards as a team and the way we play.

[Worthy4England]

McGinlay is bang on. You need width. Width that hits the byline and gets crosses in. That wants the ball and wants to run with it. We have none. Zero of that. No player who can do it. We need two wingers. And to be rid of this dreadful system.

Wingers and overlapping full backs. Imagine that, something to get excited for, instead of this.

Something a bit off with this post and I was trying to get it right in my heed. Got it. Apparently one of the core tenets of this approach, is you can change managers without ripping up the blueprint.....err....

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Evatt on the HT subs:

I thought Dion wasn’t himself first half. We felt like we needed more of a hold-up player and some physical presence on the last line. I thought the two 10s were getting into some good positions on the half turn and causing them problems, so we decided to change it. That is football, and Josh [DC] had a slight bang on his knee so we didn’t want to take the risk with him.

To my mind, those two were also the most changey changes he could have made (within the currently anointed system). JDC is what he is but sometimes lacks penetration, so we're all hoping JOT will help there. And Dion-for-Vic can be something of a statement switch, which was also needed.

Problem is looking elsewhere on the bench, Demps and Arfield don't feel like game-changers. Indeed, they feel like downgrades from McAtee and Collins, or at least the players those two are supposed to be. In the event, Demps (on 66 minutes) replaced Sheehan - and to me, while I see the point in subbing Sheehan, we seemed to lose a lot of flow and ideas, the more so when Matete replaced Tomo on 72. I like Matete a lot and he tried his best but with Tomo and Sheehan off I just didn't see a lot of midfielders asking for the ball, which is kind of important in a passing team. (Arfield replaced Johnston on 89, far too late to do anything more than his usual looking slightly exasperated.)

[officer_dibble]

We’re almost starting with the gung ho team you would switch to at 1-0 down with 15 to go…

[GhostoftheBok]

We wanted to have Lolos, Williams and another #10 in the squad - that would have yielded a stronger bench.

That's by the by, though. We had the personnel to beat that Charlton side and they didn't show the quality.

We can't add 8 players to a squad that finished 3rd and then say "Oh, if only the bench were better."

Not many League One sides can bring players like Adeboyejo, Tutu and Dempsey on to impact a game.

We've failed to sign the #10 we wanted and our other one has been crocked by a disgusting tackle, but your other players then need to show up.

The issue yesterday wasn't Evatt's football, it was a lack of quality from the players. They have the quality in them, so it's about whether Evatt can get it out of them quickly enough.

This is a good run of games now. If we're still not seeing good performances at the end of the next 5 games it'll be serious. This is the start of year 5, not month 5.

[Bertie Wooster]

The issue yesterday wasn't Evatt's football, it was a lack of quality from the players. They have the quality in them, so it's about whether Evatt can get it out of them quickly enough.

Totally disagree on several counts 1. We are not Man City, our League 1 level players are not comfortable playing out from the back, their passing and control are not good enough to play this way without giving stupid goals away i.e. Toal, Santos. 2. Its not just about lack of quality from the players - this 5-2-3 system clearly isn't working therefore its the managers tactics - we need 3 midfielders IMO.
3. Our poor form goes back to the start of 2024, its not just 3 games in and needing to gel its 22 games in with almost the same team as we had last season.

Evatt can't turn Toal & Santos into prime Beckenbauer or a John Stones, they are not comfortable passing it about at the back and he's had plenty of time on the training ground with them, if we carry on this way we will continue to concede more daft unavoidable goals by defenders giving the ball away - he has also had plenty of time in training with Thomason & Sheehan in midfield.

This tippy tappy boring as hell possession for the sake of possession has to stop - Evatt is rapidly losing more fans continuing down this route, even ones who backed him in the summer, just have a look on the other forum's, its the majority now who are very unhappy with Evatt, his stubbornness will be his undoing continuing with a system that most fans dislike and clearly isn't working well enough to get out of league 1.

[GhostoftheBok]

Totally disagree on several counts

That's fine.

We can disagree.

I'm comfortable with my view of the game.

[Bertie Wooster]

How come Evatt now in his 4th season in League 1 with many players he's had for years is still saying he needs time on the training ground to implement his system, more quality etc. yet the likes of Nathan Jones and Buckingham at Oxford get successful systems, tactics & strategies implemented and working in 8 months.

Questions need to be asked of Evatt, just how much time and money does he need ?

[GhostoftheBok]

This awful system put our players into good attacking positions time and again yesterday. The issue was what the players then did from those positions.

Multiple players running the same lines, picking the wrong pass, refusing a shot, etc. Mostly it was about poor passing at key moments, or a poor touch from a player who would usually control it - Tutu to Collins springs to mind.

These are players who can get these things right, because we've watched them do it; for us or for other teams.

The major tactical issue was wide. Charlton pinned our wingbacks and that dragged our forwards too wide. When we changed Cogley for Tutu he pushed on far more. That allowed the front three to narrow, which in turns dragged their RWB in to support their back 3 and let Schon get forward. The width in this system has to come from those wingbacks.

If we'd had that when Charlton were willing to push on, rather than after they'd scored, it's a different game. However, as Charlton narrowed to defend their box the wingbacks pushed in, rather than staying wide. That's a training ground fix all day.

Most football is pretty fine margins. Managers live and die by them.

A manager has to do two things. Give the players a platform to win and then get performances out of them. The platform (the system) was fine yesterday. The performances were crap. Blaming Evatt is fine, but at least blame him for what really happened.

Time on the training pitch *should* get those things drilled into the players - the runs, the positioning, etc. He had a week before the Charlton game and it should have been better than it was. So I've no time for any excuses around the manager, his performance there wasn't good enough. But it's not "the system", it's the execution. The concept is fine, if Evatt can't get that from the whiteboard to the pitch then he'll lose his job.

Lots of football to play and an international break to work on the training pitch with the majority of the players.

If we're still crap after that then he's in bother.