Down in The Valley, something stirred. V Charlton Athletic away Sat Aug 24th 3-0 'clock.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

How come Evatt now in his 4th season in League 1 with many players he's had for years is still saying he needs time on the training ground to implement his system, more quality etc. yet the likes of Nathan Jones and Buckingham at Oxford get successful systems, tactics & strategies implemented and working in 8 months.

Questions need to be asked of Evatt, just how much time and money does he need ?

I think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask.

It seems Evatt is very much system-driven, with set patterns given to his players to learn (content download etc). That's not unusual - managers have done that since time immemorial, otherwise what's the point of them? Many very respected managers (eg Bobby Robson) have even sent out their players for "shadow play" sequences where they run through what they're supposed to do, against no opposition, in the footballing equivalent of an actor learning lines.

Where I am beginning to fear Evatt might fail is what happens when those set patterns don't work. Say, for example, Oxford close off your key passing lanes. Can you adapt? Clearly not on that occasion, so (after some soul-searching and dieting) Evatt changed the system. Now, he's done this successfully several times before - promoted playing 4-3-3, we established ourselves playing 3-4-1-2 and then won a cup plus reached two playoffs playing 3-1-4-2. And then in summer we changed to 3-4-2-1.

Trouble is, other managers notice what you're doing. We can argue all day as to whether the 3-4-2-1 will/should work, but the absolutely vital question is what happens when oppos nullify it? Or any system? Can your players find the answer?

Systems can and do work. Systems got John Beck's Cambridge United from the Fourth to the brink of the new Premier. But then he got so beholden to them that players were not allowed to operate outside their strictly-defined roles. In a piece I wrote for FFT on Beck, there's a telling quote from Claridge where he says the oppo fullback was taunting him by "showing him inside", knowing Beck forbade tht and wanted his wide men to hit the byline and cross. "You're not allowed to, are you?" mocked his oppo. Claridge chopped inside, and was subbed before half-time. Cambridge got sussed. Beck lost his job.

Ian Evatt could be a very good manager. He has won two promotions plus a cup, and reached two playoffs, playing attack-minded passing football. Where he might fall down is by being too proscriptive. He's a better manager than me but what I think we need is to have two or three systems we can switch between - we have the players to do this - and, more crucially, the flexibility to do it in-game. He has said several times he wants his players to spot the gaps and find where to hurt the oppo. What if that's by playing a different shape, gaffer?

In short, he may have to loosen the reins before they're wrenched from his hands.

[GhostoftheBok]

How come Evatt now in his 4th season in League 1 with many players he's had for years is still saying he needs time on the training ground to implement his system, more quality etc. yet the likes of Nathan Jones and Buckingham at Oxford get successful systems, tactics & strategies implemented and working in 8 months.

Questions need to be asked of Evatt, just how much time and money does he need ?

It's not been 8 months with this system and group. It's also been a heavily disrupted preseason.

If this was unforeseeable and some shocking issue I'd be there with you. It's not, though. It's precisely what I expected to happen, but was hoping we'd manage to dig through. I said as much numerous times on here.

We are 4 games into it.

Des Buckingham won 5 of his first 15 games. Jones won 4 of his first 15.

Now if the position is basically "He's the same manager, so I don't care if it's a retool" then that's fine. I don't disagree it should be much quicker to switch than completely start again. However, the idea that other managers don't need time when they want to implement new ideas, or work with new groups, isn't correct. You don't pay attention to them, so they seem to have got it right out of nowhere. Buckingham had plenty of calls for his head early doors.

Evatt hasn't been able to get this group onto the training pitch as a full unit until a week ago. I expected Charlton to be better than it was. If we don't see rapid improvements over the next few games then I'll become a lot more critical.

[Prufrock]

This awful system put our players into good attacking positions time and again yesterday. The issue was what the players then did from those positions.

Multiple players running the same lines, picking the wrong pass, refusing a shot, etc. Mostly it was about poor passing at key moments, or a poor touch from a player who would usually control it - Tutu to Collins springs to mind.

These are players who can get these things right, because we've watched them do it; for us or for other teams.

The major tactical issue was wide. Charlton pinned our wingbacks and that dragged our forwards too wide. When we changed Cogley for Tutu he pushed on far more. That allowed the front three to narrow, which in turns dragged their RWB in to support their back 3 and let Schon get forward. The width in this system has to come from those wingbacks.

If we'd had that when Charlton were willing to push on, rather than after they'd scored, it's a different game. However, as Charlton narrowed to defend their box the wingbacks pushed in, rather than staying wide. That's a training ground fix all day.

Most football is pretty fine margins. Managers live and die by them.

A manager has to do two things. Give the players a platform to win and then get performances out of them. The platform (the system) was fine yesterday. The performances were crap. Blaming Evatt is fine, but at least blame him for what really happened.

Time on the training pitch *should* get those things drilled into the players - the runs, the positioning, etc. He had a week before the Charlton game and it should have been better than it was. So I've no time for any excuses around the manager, his performance there wasn't good enough. But it's not "the system", it's the execution. The concept is fine, if Evatt can't get that from the whiteboard to the pitch then he'll lose his job.

Lots of football to play and an international break to work on the training pitch with the majority of the players.

If we're still crap after that then he's in bother.

Aye that's where I am. Three league games into the new system. The problems have been individual. Either that improves or it doesn't. If it doesn't he's had it. If it does, we can nail this league.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Evatt hasn't been able to get this group onto the training pitch as a full unit until a week ago. I expected Charlton to be better than it was. If we don't see rapid improvements over the next few games then I'll become a lot more critical.

That's the big worry though, for me. We patched through the first three games - not spectacular, but unbeaten and arguably improving by the game. He's got the best squad he's ever had, with a week "on the grass"... and it just looked awful.

Now, that might well be the players failing him. But he had their ears and eyes all week. Yesterday felt a lot like a manager not getting the best out of his players, a team being significantly less than the sum of its parts. That's what has to change.

[GhostoftheBok]

Now, that might well be the players failing him. But he had their ears and eyes all week. Yesterday felt a lot like a manager not getting the best out of his players, a team being significantly less than the sum of its parts. That's what has to change.

This is the issue.

At this stage it doesn't matter if "the players are failing him", the performances and results are there or they are not.

Yesterday was really poor.

He can lose more games (we will definitely lose more games) and put in more poor performances. However, it can't become a regular issue. It has to be a rarity and when we do play poorly, as we will, we have to find ways to get results.

Like I say, if we're still here talking about "Is it the players or the manager?" in 5 games time then it's the manager.

Also like I say, I'm not shocked this is happening. I've been about long enough to see this a mile off. However, I didn't expect it this way around. I thought we'd maybe show this in the first couple of games and then look a bit more like it. I'm concerned because that performance came after a proper week's work. Not frantic, but I was angry watching it and it's put the old eyebrow up a notch.

Tuesday may be iffy, because we will switch the team over. Things need to improve, though. Fast.

[officer_dibble]

Half time on Saturday it wanted ripping up - back 4, midfield 3, front 3. DSB nails his stubbornness. Make the opposition manager think.

Don’t forget after Wembley he said he wouldn’t change the preparation and therefore we’d lose that game every single time.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

He can lose more games (we will definitely lose more games) and put in more poor performances. However, it can't become a regular issue. It has to be a rarity and when we do play poorly, as we will, we have to find ways to get results.

It really can't, for a couple of reasons.

One, recent history suggests we need 2+ppg. Every loss makes that harder. Pompey only lost 5 last year. We only lost 9, and stayed down. Season before, Plymouth lost 7, Ipswich 4, Sheff Weds 6. We're not even allowed one off-day per month - unless we find ways to win, or at the very least not lose, on a bad day.

Two, look what happens now when an Evatt team plays badly. Trust is hard-won and easily lost. I genuinely think Evatt might, for the foreseeable future, need to win six or eight or ten games for every loss, just to keep discontent away. Seriously: I think he now has to beat Shrewsbury, Exeter and Barrow before the break, certainly not lose at home to Huddersfield thereafter (even a draw would raise questions), then beat Reading (H), Crawley (A), Northampton (A), Shrewsbury (H), Villa kids, Stevenage (A), Burton (H)... the next game bar Huddersfield he might be forgiven (by both table maths and irritated fans) for not winning is Birmingham away in late October.

And even then, it only takes one overly patient possession-retaining sideways pass for The Bloke Behind You to start bellowing.

[GhostoftheBok]

And even then, it only takes one overly patient possession-retaining sideways pass for The Bloke Behind You to start bellowing.

This was the issue highlighted after the final.

If he stayed it couldn't be the case that we had to have an Invincibles season as "bare minimum."

4 of the last 8 automatically promoted sides have lost 10 games or more. 50%. You can lose football matches and go up.

What we can't be is just crap. We were crap yesterday.

Asking us to just show up isn't overly demanding.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

4 of the last 8 automatically promoted sides have lost 10 games or more. 50%. You can lose football matches and go up.

Early days, small sample, but do you really think someone will be promoted this season losing 11 games - almost one in four?

Also - it's four of the last eight, but those four were exceptional. Rotherham in 2021/22 lost 10 but eight of those were bookends at the start and end of the season; between those, they played 29 W20 D7 L2 - 2.3ppg over the hardest-slogging two-thirds of the season. That helped them get to 90pts overall - not far shy of the 2ppg. That was a Warne team of course, and he was at it again last year - Derby lost 10, but half of those were before Halloween and thereafter his team got 71pts from the final 32 games to clamber to 92pts in total.

The other two to go up with 10+ losses were Hull and Posh, both in 2020/21 - a poor season by standards since, in which Hull won the title with 89pts, which wouldn't have even got them promoted in the subsequent three. This division's getting harder, not easier, and it doesn't feel like this season will be a blip given the teams already congregating at the business end - Duff's Huddersfield, the two big-spending promotion teams, the huge-spending Birmingham, Jones' gnarly Charlton.

[GhostoftheBok]

Early days, small sample, but do you really think someone will be promoted this season losing 11 games - almost one in four?

Honest answer, I don't know.

Equally honest, my assumption is always that you can lose 6-8 games - so roughly 1 in 7/8.

For every game you lose you have to win 3 and draw 1, to get yourself to 2 PPG over a 5 game run.

Because you're likely to draw more than you'd like you need the leeway of not losing too many.

You can lose what, 15?, and stay above your 2 PPG target if you win all the others - but that's not reality.

The real kick in the balls here was drawing at home to Wrexham. So we're playing catch-up already.

We have to win the next 3 to track above 2 PPG.

This is just how it is. Winning a league, or getting promoted, is really fecking hard.

[GhostoftheBok]

My brain is geared to 15 games into the season.

That's my "Are we at 2 PPG?" mark. If we are, or close, I'll be relaxed about it.

There's a decent mix of fixtures in there to tell you whether you're roughly where you need to be.

That's also my "Do we bin him off?" point.

I was prepared for us to be fairly (very) bad in the first few games.

[Worthy4England]

The bit that niggles me in all this, is surely we should generally be playing against teams that have had the same sort preseason problems with incoming players and the transfer market being impacted by the Euros. . Most of our opponents will also have had little time with their new incoming players, yet we sort of pretend it's only us that has the problem.

[Bertie Wooster]

The bit that niggles me in all this, is surely we should generally be playing against teams that have had the same sort preseason problems with incoming players and the transfer market being impacted by the Euros. . Most of our opponents will also have had little time with their new incoming players, yet we sort of pretend it's only us that has the problem.

Yes there is no accountability with Evatt just excuses.

[BWFC_Insane]

Forget points. The challenge after Wembley was to show he and the players understood what it meant to be representing Bolton wanderers. And end to the most boring football I’ve ever watched us produce. And end to spineless, leaderless displays. And end to aimless sideways passing and slow performances without intensity. And end to failing to turn up in the big games against decent teams. An end to one dimensional tactics and setups.

That was the clear challenge. They are all incredibly lucky and fortunate to be here. They had unbelievable support last season - support they did not deserve if truth be told.

People spent money they didn’t have to watch them particularly in play off games and Wembley.

They challenge was to show they get that and care and collectively are as a unit going to put an end to the half hearted and play real gutsy football at intensity.

You don’t need that long to do that. You might lose games but you can show that you are doing it. Three league games in and all those things are exactly the same if not worse.

And I still maintain the root cause of the majority of these issues is we are asking good league one players to play in a way that simply they are not capable of doing and consistently winning games against equivalently skilled sides. You win when football is simplified and peoples games are made easy. Every successful Bolton side I’ve ever watched has played to its level and ability and done so with a game that maximises abilities. Right now and for a few seasons we haven’t done so.

[BWFC_Insane]

The bit that niggles me in all this, is surely we should generally be playing against teams that have had the same sort preseason problems with incoming players and the transfer market being impacted by the Euros. . Most of our opponents will also have had little time with their new incoming players, yet we sort of pretend it's only us that has the problem.

Yes there is no accountability with Evatt just excuses.

To be fair it’s the Evatt apologists not Evatt himself.

[GhostoftheBok]

The bit that niggles me in all this, is surely we should generally be playing against teams that have had the same sort preseason problems with incoming players and the transfer market being impacted by the Euros. . Most of our opponents will also have had little time with their new incoming players, yet we sort of pretend it's only us that has the problem.

No, I think it's generally been more extreme for us. We were down to 12 training players at one stage.

Like I said, I'm not making excuses after the fact. I said before the season kicked off what was likely to happen and why.

You can view it as getting excuses in early, but it's just having seen it at clubs for years. There are general principles in football and the idea they shouldn't apply to Evatt, because people are angry with him, makes no sense.

You need to be able to disentangle the emotional link to the club and treat Evatt like any other manager.

Initially we were pretty stable looking, but we then had a preseason that looked like a slow start was coming.

We had a similar issue under Sam in (I think) 03/04, where we had a really disrupted preseason and won 1 in our first 10 games. We failed to even score in half of them.

I expect Ian to do a good job, but I don't expect none of the usual rules of football to apply to him.

[GhostoftheBok]

That doesn't make the Charlton performance acceptable, by the way. It wasn't. We should have improved. We didn't.

[BWFC_Insane]

The bit that niggles me in all this, is surely we should generally be playing against teams that have had the same sort preseason problems with incoming players and the transfer market being impacted by the Euros. . Most of our opponents will also have had little time with their new incoming players, yet we sort of pretend it's only us that has the problem.

No, I think it's generally been more extreme for us. We were down to 12 training players at one stage.

Like I said, I'm not making excuses after the fact. I said before the season kicked off what was likely to happen and why.

You can view it as getting excuses in early, but it's just having seen it at clubs for years. There are general principles in football and the idea they shouldn't apply to Evatt, because people are angry with him, makes no sense.

You need to be able to disentangle the emotional link to the club and treat Evatt like any other manager.

Initially we were pretty stable looking, but we then had a preseason that looked like a slow start was coming.

We had a similar issue under Sam in (I think) 03/04, where we had a really disrupted preseason and won 1 in our first 10 games. We failed to even score in half of them.

I expect Ian to do a good job, but I don't expect none of the usual rules of football to apply to him.

We had two new players in the side. Two.

Look at Allardyce’s start in the promotion season. Lost half a side. Scraped and borrowed to get a team together and it was by no means done at the start of the season. We won 6 out of first 7 or 7 out of first 8 or something like that.

I’m afraid at this stage it’s excuses.

Parky went into a season with a game against Sheffield United without on the morning of the game knowing if he could field any of his new signings. We won 1-0.

[GhostoftheBok]

Also, to waffle on with myself for a moment, Evatt has made a choice to disrupt his squad.

We've signed 8 and want more. We've moved on established players.

He will have known that might kick him in the balls early doors, but he's chosen to improve the quality in the squad and then do the work on the training pitch. He's also clearly challenged the remaining lads to prove they're worthy of their spots.

People were calling for brave choices and aiming to change anywhere up to 50% of a squad that finished 3rd isn't exactly timid.

He has to start picking up back-to-back wins very quickly, but anyone claiming he's taking no risks is talking out of their hat.

[Worthy4England]

But I don't think it's been more extreme.

I looked at Charlton's team the first 2 games and there were somewhere around 6 newbies and a few players that didn't feature a whole lot <15 appearances and they unloaded their top scorer on the way. Mannion, Mitchell, Small, Berry, Docherty, Ramsay, Yahyai, all new

We started with 9 players that have been with us since at least Jan.

Sorry, not buying it.

And I don't think that's being unfair to Evatt...