Down in The Valley, something stirred. V Charlton Athletic away Sat Aug 24th 3-0 'clock.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I don't buy the "we winter badly" argument, because it's hugely selective. We usually have some sort of wobnle - most teams do - but in every Evatt season we've had a long surge in winter months.

Between last season's October break and NYD we W14 D1 L2.
Season before, NYD to late Feb, W10 D1 L2.
Season before, mid-Jan to early Mar, W9 D1 L2.
Season before, mid-Feb to end Mar, W10 D1 L0.

But I do think we can't afford to have too many slips, partly Because Maths, partly Because Disenchantment.

[GhostoftheBok]

But I do think we can't afford to have too many slips, partly Because Maths, partly Because Disenchantment.

Add "investment" to that list.

The squad is there, in depth.

At the moment we are light in midfield - but that's partly by choice. If we leave the window that way it'll be our own fault.

We have different tools for different problems and a depth of talent.

We have got to get that proper #10.

Give me a low centre of gravity, dribbly, nightmare of a player with some pace. I deserve it.

[Worthy4England]

I don't buy the "we winter badly" argument, because it's hugely selective. We usually have some sort of wobnle - most teams do - but in every Evatt season we've had a long surge in winter months.

Between last season's October break and NYD we W14 D1 L2.
Season before, NYD to late Feb, W10 D1 L2.
Season before, mid-Jan to early Mar, W9 D1 L2.
Season before, mid-Feb to end Mar, W10 D1 L0.

But I do think we can't afford to have too many slips, partly Because Maths, partly Because Disenchantment.

I think some of this is relative to the outcome you're trying to get. Mid-Jan/Early March is getting you up towards 8 losses over 46 games. Last season iirc Sept/Oct weren't great. We only lost 3, but it was 3 out of 11 - you're heading up to 13 losses over 46, at that rate, even if W6 D2 L3 is only 2 points adrift of 2ppg. The tolerance to losses if you're trying to be nearer the top than average is much smaller.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I don't buy the "we winter badly" argument, because it's hugely selective. We usually have some sort of wobnle - most teams do - but in every Evatt season we've had a long surge in winter months.

Between last season's October break and NYD we W14 D1 L2.
Season before, NYD to late Feb, W10 D1 L2.
Season before, mid-Jan to early Mar, W9 D1 L2.
Season before, mid-Feb to end Mar, W10 D1 L0.

But I do think we can't afford to have too many slips, partly Because Maths, partly Because Disenchantment.

I think some of this is relative to the outcome you're trying to get. Mid-Jan/Early March is getting you up towards 8 losses over 46 games. Last season iirc Sept/Oct weren't great. We only lost 3, but it was 3 out of 11 - you're heading up to 13 losses over 46, at that rate, even if W6 D2 L3 is only 2 points adrift of 2ppg. The tolerance to losses if you're trying to be nearer the top than average is much smaller.

For sure. Said several times we need to be ruthless and consistent. Can't afford to drop too many points. Bag the Ws as the standard, you can't have too many Ds and Ls.

But the "we can never play on shit pitches or against big forwards" cliché is just demonstrably wrong. We can, and we have. As just the most recent example, the mighty Parkinsonian Wrexham (who scored 3 again this weekend, as they had the weekend before playing us) barely laid a glove on us; were that tired old trope about us being 'soft' at least half-true they'd surely have bagged from some of the 8 corners they got at ours.

There's plenty *real* problems to address without lazy cliché. That's all.

[boltonboris]

Pathetic performance. The worst one of the season so far and we've been shit for 4 games.

At no point previously have I wanted the manager gone, but I'm not willing to put up with another 4 games like this. The new system he has concocted does nothing but expose our frailties. Lack of imagination, lack of physicality in midfield and honestly, a sever lack of technique.

In a 3, Sheehan can get away with not being an energetic presser, or tackler.
In a 3, Thomason can get away with being generally shit at football, because he's busy and energetic.

In a 2, it's like watching the Chuckle Brothers fit a kitchen. feck me. My eyes are still bleeding

[GhostoftheBok]

Thomason can get away with being generally shit at football

Honestly, what the feck are you on about?

[boltonboris]

Thomason can get away with being generally shit at football

Honestly, what the feck are you on about?

He's clumsy, cumbersome, doesn't pass well, hasn't got a good first touch - But as I said, he's busy, energetic and when surrounded by an extra body, he can be effective. I think he, as well as others, will struggle in this system the way we've played it so far

[GhostoftheBok]

He's clumsy, cumbersome, doesn't pass well, hasn't got a good first touch - But as I said, he's busy, energetic and when surrounded by an extra body, he can be effective. I think he, as well as others, will struggle in this system the way we've played it so far

Come on...he's a good player. Easily good enough for this level and probably for the one up.

His touch is good, his passing range is excellent and he's started scoring very good goals.

I get we all have our views of players, but Thomason as crap is a real stretch.

We finished 3rd with him as one of our best players. I've no idea how that can be the case if he's crap.

[boltonboris]

He's clumsy, cumbersome, doesn't pass well, hasn't got a good first touch - But as I said, he's busy, energetic and when surrounded by an extra body, he can be effective. I think he, as well as others, will struggle in this system the way we've played it so far

Come on...he's a good player. Easily good enough for this level and probably for the one up.

His touch is good, his passing range is excellent and he's started scoring very good goals.

I get we all have our views of players, but Thomason as crap is a real stretch.

We finished 3rd with him as one of our best players. I've no idea how that can be the case if he's crap.

As I said, I believe he's effective in a 3. I have many reservations over him in a 2 - Same with Sheehan, who I've also been a fan of

[BWFC_Insane]

Thomason is our best outfield player and the one who could play highest up the ladder. I entirely agree on the system and its issues but Thomason is one of the few who has the ability to get the team driving forwards.

[GhostoftheBok]

As I said, I believe he's effective in a 3. I have many reservations over him in a 2 - Same with Sheehan, who I've also been a fan of

If we play it as an isolated 2 then anyone will get swamped.

If we can get the box midfield working properly it'll be a 4 or 5 when we need it to be.

Evatt's job is to implement it properly. Graham Potter and numerous other managers have got it ticking, at various levels.

Thommo and Sheehan look quite a lot like Lallana and Bissouma for the level. We'll see how it goes.

Not having it that Thommo is a crap footballer, though

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I have to admit I haven't seen much of the box about over version of the box midfield.

In theory, it gets its rigidity from having two layers of central players to get through. While McAtee is a pleasing ratter, I don't think I've been suffused with the warm confidence that our two 10s have offered central protection. And if they don't, we're essentially playing a front three and simply losing a man from midfield.

So, again, it's about the formation being implemented correctly (or, clearly, not). If the players don't do it right in one game, it's possible to blame the players; if they keep doing it wrong, it's impossible not to blame the manager.

Still early days relatively speaking, and I'm aware that tonight Evatt might be asking nine or 10 replacements to follow the orders. But they are in the squad, they've not been pulled out of the dole office.

[BWFC_Insane]

I have to admit I haven't seen much of the box about over version of the box midfield.

In theory, it gets its rigidity from having two layers of central players to get through. While McAtee is a pleasing ratter, I don't think I've been suffused with the warm confidence that our two 10s have offered central protection. And if they don't, we're essentially playing a front three and simply losing a man from midfield.

So, again, it's about the formation being implemented correctly (or, clearly, not). If the players don't do it right in one game, it's possible to blame the players; if they keep doing it wrong, it's impossible not to blame the manager.

Still early days relatively speaking, and I'm aware that tonight Evatt might be asking nine or 10 replacements to follow the orders. But they are in the squad, they've not been pulled out of the dole office.

It keeps being claimed it’s a box midfield yet McAtee and Collins keep playing ‘out wide’ before drifting inside. I’m not convinced it’s meant to be a box midfield.

On the subject of ‘front three’s’ I accidentally stumbled across the 2004-5 highlights on the official club YouTube the other day. Amazing how good that front three of Davies, Stelios and Diouf were but also how quickly we transitioned the ball to them - we created their space through our intensity of play.

Also how genuinely outstanding Nolan was for us then. The sort of number ten we’d do anything for now. Created goals, scored goals.

The other thing I noted was how Diouf and Stelio’s and Okocha all were prepared to put the ball into the box with just a yard of space to do so. And how often we’d score goals from doing that - especially the other ‘wide forward’ scoring from each others cross.

[GhostoftheBok]

I have to admit I haven't seen much of the box about over version of the box midfield.

No, but it's situational.

We've played for length a lot so far in the away games. Charles dropped off and the 10s ran in looking for gaps, to offer a short and long option.

At Charlton we wanted the 7/10s to drift wide to create overloads with the wingbacks

My issue is that people are saying "This system will mean this", but it hasn't when other clubs have played it.

In the Charlton game the "they'll overrun out midfield" issue was at times met with a box and at times met with a centre back stepping out as a ball-winner. As here in this 4-on-3 we've created, from which we create a turnover (only to then lose the ball again...bugger).

Box counter.png (605.55 KiB) Viewed 3524 times

After the loss of possession the 10 that was part of the press then drops to an orthodox wing position as the ball goes wide, allowing us to create a defensive overload 3-on-2 and maintain constant pressure.

wide 3-on-2.png (188.16 KiB) Viewed 3524 times

We break down Charlton's attack that time. Some time later they have the ball and we are back with our midfield box to create a 4-on-3 in the middle.

Midfield 4-on-3.png (185.95 KiB) Viewed 3524 times

The game rolls on like that, with us looking to create defensive and offensive overloads with rotations - as any good team does.

Where and how we do that will vary massively, depending on the opposition; but the point is we are not just leaving Thommo and Sheehan to do their own thing. It's not a constant 3-on-2 for the opposition just because that's what's written out in the paper.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Fair - I didn't say we'd never had four players in the same area, just that it wasn't striking me as solid.

Do you think it's working? Or close to it? Is it just a matter of fine-tuning? Or do we need a proper 10?

[TANGODANCER]

Sorry B.B. but I'd take a team of Thomasons' over a lot of other players in our league. My sort of player.

[GhostoftheBok]

Do you think it's working? Or close to it? Is it just a matter of fine-tuning? Or do we need a proper 10?

I don't think the "proper #10" thing is a defensive issue, it's about creativity in this system.

The team clearly isn't completely up on everything yet. I do think most of our defensive issues have come from giving the ball away, rather than massive tactical gaps in the system.

Johnston and Rico have stepped out well. I think Toal has been late quite a few times and that's caused issues.

Generally I'm fine with it. I don't think we're conceding big chance after big chance, or looking particularly disorganised.

Iredale got done one-on-one multiple times and got subbed. Other than that it's been about losing possession at bad times.

[Prufrock]

I'll keep banging my drum but the plan was fine on Saturday. We won it in great areas several times in the first half an hour with the press but didn't take the right option. With the right decisions we're 2-0 and it's a long way back. We completely stopped them playing, won the arm wrestle. Very similar to Wrexham. But then we gave them a soft goal and it got ragged.

We have to fix that. 1) make sure the decision making is right so we take those opportunities and win games early. 2) if like Wrexham they realise we've won the arm wrestle and drop, find a way to break down those deep defences and 3) stop shooting ourselves in the head with horrible mistakes.

But the fundamentals are fine (and in my opinion much better 352, though that is my pet hate shape wise).

[GhostoftheBok]

But the fundamentals are fine (and in my opinion much better 352, though that is my pet hate shape wise).

This is largely the thing. We don't actually make more mistakes than other teams. It's League One, they're almost all at it at this level.

If we can get a system that mostly only concedes when we cock up we'll be fine.

The issue is that this is Evatt's season 5, not season 1. If this were the start of a new manager I'd be fairly positive. As it is I'm still in a slump from Charlton.

One thing I will say is, having watched it back, I was harsh on Baxter for their first goal. There's lovely shape on that hit from Docherty. It's not a gimme save.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Do you think it's working? Or close to it? Is it just a matter of fine-tuning? Or do we need a proper 10?

I do think most of our defensive issues have come from giving the ball away, rather than massive tactical gaps in the system.

This rings true. In three league games we've conceded three goals - two very recently from gormlessly giving the ball away, one on the opening day from iredale getting caught under the ball (plus pressing problem, nothing exists in a vacuum etc). So those brainfarts need clearing up, for sure. As you've noted, the promoted rarely ship 1+gpg - it's possible, but it means you need to score a lot (and, well, 2 in 3 games is underperforming with the attackers available).

I'll keep banging my drum

Do bang away. You bang melodiously and thoughtfully, adding to the conversation rather than shouting down. IMO, of course...

the plan was fine on Saturday. We won it in great areas several times in the first half an hour with the press but didn't take the right option. With the right decisions we're 2-0 and it's a long way back. We completely stopped them playing, won the arm wrestle. Very similar to Wrexham. But then we gave them a soft goal and it got ragged.

We have to fix that. 1) make sure the decision making is right so we take those opportunities and win games early. 2) if like Wrexham they realise we've won the arm wrestle and drop, find a way to break down those deep defences and 3) stop shooting ourselves in the head with horrible mistakes.

But the fundamentals are fine (and in my opinion much better 352, though that is my pet hate shape wise).

Yep, you've definitely pinpointed some problems there. Don't miss chances when you're on top. Figure out what to do when the oppo changes (frequently a problem). And don't be a dick.