The Politics Thread

[Hoboh]

Interesting reporting on the Chris Kaba case today, with the release of all the information about his gangsta activities. Yesterday his family made no mention of them and asked they be not released - wonder why? - you'd think he was a mistaken angel who helped old ladies with their shopping. It's right we examine incidents involving the police shooting citizens, but maybe spare us some of the indignation, when the citizen involved is a gun toting thug and hardly sat there saying "Fair cop, guv."

The serious aspects of this case are that the police and authorities seem fully aware of this gang and its activities and members yet are seemingly unable to shut it down. This 'gang' that can place a bounty on a police officer without impunity is probably carrying on as normal and a threat to the general public, yet they are seemingly being given various protections against disclosure of who they are.
It's time to bring Reagan and Carter along with the flying squad out of retirement.

[Hoboh]

I see the 22 billion black hole is somehow expanding to a 40 billion black hole with still no explanation to its makeup.
Ah well, not long to the total exposure of brain dead Reeves and free gear two tier.

22bn is projected in year overspend. The 40Bn figure is the amount of public spending cuts the previous government have baked into plans across the period of the next spending review.

It’s completely different numbers meaning completely different things. Not reflect the total mess our economy has become since Brexit. You should be apologising and grovelling instead of throwing figures around that you clearly don’t understand.

Weak mate, very weak.
The above is purely your sanitised version of the figures and explains absolutely nothing of the specific details behind the original 22 billion except for a substantial chunk of pay rises for the unions.
40 billion is down to the previous government? What for doing the same thing labour are planning to do with interest? Of course it's the fault of the Tories the growth of youth unemployment has soared since 2019, the number of long term sickness rocketed, benefits shooting out of all proportion and the likes of you think we should still be importing an expensive, well to those taxpayers and pensioners anyway, workforce full of Dr's, engineers and scientists. Spending cuts are required and were required back then to keep tax and the economy moving not funding dinosaur union pay rises and paying Mr Ed's funding for stupid projects and an energy company that won't actually produce any energy.
So the answer is
Raise taxes on those that do work, those that have the cheek to actually die with any assets or money and lump 5 billion on employers, an admitted government figure, to keep red Angie and her backers happy.
There are many things wrong with employment rights but this is way over the top and not the answer, zero hour contracts the worst of them, but all this 'flexibility', 'WFH' and absence rights are a skivers charter.

[BWFC_Insane]

I see the 22 billion black hole is somehow expanding to a 40 billion black hole with still no explanation to its makeup.
Ah well, not long to the total exposure of brain dead Reeves and free gear two tier.

22bn is projected in year overspend. The 40Bn figure is the amount of public spending cuts the previous government have baked into plans across the period of the next spending review.

It’s completely different numbers meaning completely different things. Not reflect the total mess our economy has become since Brexit. You should be apologising and grovelling instead of throwing figures around that you clearly don’t understand.

Weak mate, very weak.
The above is purely your sanitised version of the figures and explains absolutely nothing of the specific details behind the original 22 billion except for a substantial chunk of pay rises for the unions.
40 billion is down to the previous government? What for doing the same thing labour are planning to do with interest? Of course it's the fault of the Tories the growth of youth unemployment has soared since 2019, the number of long term sickness rocketed, benefits shooting out of all proportion and the likes of you think we should still be importing an expensive, well to those taxpayers and pensioners anyway, workforce full of Dr's, engineers and scientists. Spending cuts are required and were required back then to keep tax and the economy moving not funding dinosaur union pay rises and paying Mr Ed's funding for stupid projects and an energy company that won't actually produce any energy.
So the answer is
Raise taxes on those that do work, those that have the cheek to actually die with any assets or money and lump 5 billion on employers, an admitted government figure, to keep red Angie and her backers happy.
There are many things wrong with employment rights but this is way over the top and not the answer, zero hour contracts the worst of them, but all this 'flexibility', 'WFH' and absence rights are a skivers charter.

The public sector pay settlements were broadly out of any governments hands as they’ve been farmed off to independent committee. Who it should be noted received no affordability advice from the Tory government.

Workers who are in real terms worse off than they were in 2010 receiving pay rises is hardly a negative. It was essentially to prevent complete collapse of the NHS and the flood of teachers leaving the profession.

Cuts are needed to broken public services - yet people like you are the first to moan.

I will leave it there as it’s not worth discussing with you.

[Worthy4England]

Interesting reporting on the Chris Kaba case today, with the release of all the information about his gangsta activities. Yesterday his family made no mention of them and asked they be not released - wonder why? - you'd think he was a mistaken angel who helped old ladies with their shopping. It's right we examine incidents involving the police shooting citizens, but maybe spare us some of the indignation, when the citizen involved is a gun toting thug and hardly sat there saying "Fair cop, guv."

The serious aspects of this case are that the police and authorities seem fully aware of this gang and its activities and members yet are seemingly unable to shut it down. This 'gang' that can place a bounty on a police officer without impunity is probably carrying on as normal and a threat to the general public, yet they are seemingly being given various protections against disclosure of who they are.
It's time to bring Reagan and Carter along with the flying squad out of retirement.

This is little different than it ever was - Al Capone was only bagged on tax evasion mate. I do believe there has to be a presumption of innocence and a requirement for prosecuting agencies to prove a crime. We can't start locking people up on guesswork. I mean they weren't unable to shut it down to the extent that was already "in train" and due to occur for some of the main players.

[Worthy4England]

I see the 22 billion black hole is somehow expanding to a 40 billion black hole with still no explanation to its makeup.
Ah well, not long to the total exposure of brain dead Reeves and free gear two tier.

22bn is projected in year overspend. The 40Bn figure is the amount of public spending cuts the previous government have baked into plans across the period of the next spending review.

It’s completely different numbers meaning completely different things. Not reflect the total mess our economy has become since Brexit. You should be apologising and grovelling instead of throwing figures around that you clearly don’t understand.

Weak mate, very weak.
The above is purely your sanitised version of the figures and explains absolutely nothing of the specific details behind the original 22 billion except for a substantial chunk of pay rises for the unions.
40 billion is down to the previous government? What for doing the same thing labour are planning to do with interest? Of course it's the fault of the Tories the growth of youth unemployment has soared since 2019, the number of long term sickness rocketed, benefits shooting out of all proportion and the likes of you think we should still be importing an expensive, well to those taxpayers and pensioners anyway, workforce full of Dr's, engineers and scientists. Spending cuts are required and were required back then to keep tax and the economy moving not funding dinosaur union pay rises and paying Mr Ed's funding for stupid projects and an energy company that won't actually produce any energy.
So the answer is
Raise taxes on those that do work, those that have the cheek to actually die with any assets or money and lump 5 billion on employers, an admitted government figure, to keep red Angie and her backers happy.
There are many things wrong with employment rights but this is way over the top and not the answer, zero hour contracts the worst of them, but all this 'flexibility', 'WFH' and absence rights are a skivers charter.

You want some details of the 22 billion - let's start with the £6.4bn that wasn't in the Home Office budget to deal with processing and sorting out asylum seekers. The fact that the public sector wage increase was only budgeted at 2%. There is no doubt that the hole exists, it's provable. The only debate is whether it came as a surprise.

[Hoboh]

I see the 22 billion black hole is somehow expanding to a 40 billion black hole with still no explanation to its makeup.
Ah well, not long to the total exposure of brain dead Reeves and free gear two tier.

22bn is projected in year overspend. The 40Bn figure is the amount of public spending cuts the previous government have baked into plans across the period of the next spending review.

It’s completely different numbers meaning completely different things. Not reflect the total mess our economy has become since Brexit. You should be apologising and grovelling instead of throwing figures around that you clearly don’t understand.

Weak mate, very weak.
The above is purely your sanitised version of the figures and explains absolutely nothing of the specific details behind the original 22 billion except for a substantial chunk of pay rises for the unions.
40 billion is down to the previous government? What for doing the same thing labour are planning to do with interest? Of course it's the fault of the Tories the growth of youth unemployment has soared since 2019, the number of long term sickness rocketed, benefits shooting out of all proportion and the likes of you think we should still be importing an expensive, well to those taxpayers and pensioners anyway, workforce full of Dr's, engineers and scientists. Spending cuts are required and were required back then to keep tax and the economy moving not funding dinosaur union pay rises and paying Mr Ed's funding for stupid projects and an energy company that won't actually produce any energy.
So the answer is
Raise taxes on those that do work, those that have the cheek to actually die with any assets or money and lump 5 billion on employers, an admitted government figure, to keep red Angie and her backers happy.
There are many things wrong with employment rights but this is way over the top and not the answer, zero hour contracts the worst of them, but all this 'flexibility', 'WFH' and absence rights are a skivers charter.

The public sector pay settlements were broadly out of any governments hands as they’ve been farmed off to independent committee. Who it should be noted received no affordability advice from the Tory government.

Workers who are in real terms worse off than they were in 2010 receiving pay rises is hardly a negative. It was essentially to prevent complete collapse of the NHS and the flood of teachers leaving the profession.

Cuts are needed to broken public services - yet people like you are the first to moan.

I will leave it there as it’s not worth discussing with you.

Typical leftie mantra, run out of excuses so refuse to debate. You are a real asset to free gear and robber, Angie would love a date.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Hoboh, you're not debating, you're regurgitating incoherent RW nonsense and channelling 7 year old Hoboh through some name calling.

[Worthy4England]

Hoboh, you're not debating, you're regurgitating incoherent RW nonsense and channelling 7 year old Hoboh through some name calling.

You wokie, liberal, you. How can you be an empty yedded playground bully without the name calling to impress yer empty yedded mates?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Hoboh, you're not debating, you're regurgitating incoherent RW nonsense and channelling 7 year old Hoboh through some name calling.

You wokie, liberal, you. How can you be an empty yedded playground bully without the name calling to impress yer empty yedded mates?

I haven't any mates to impress

[Hoboh]

Hoboh, you're not debating, you're regurgitating incoherent RW nonsense and channelling 7 year old Hoboh through some name calling.

No mate, I'm making quite legitimate points about labour, despite being able to access the same information as bwfci, seemed incapable whilst in opposition of finding the black holes in the economy which he seems to know all about. Only someone extremely foolish would fail to see that Reeves (there I've left out the robber bit) and the rest of the cabinet are angling to tax rises to pay off the unions. Half the world is at or involved in some sort of wars at the moment and I read yesterday that defence spending is going to take a tanking.
Oh dear, wages haven't gone up since 2010, well according, again to bwfci, I know, next, it will be 'in real terms'.
I had serious doubts about the intrusion of AI into human life, now I cannot wait for self driving trains, AI teachers and medical diagnostic equipment.
BTW labour never mentioned, bit like the black hole, the 5 billion cost to businesses to cover their 'workers rights' plan, did they?

Okay I get some fuddy duddies don't quite get the name calling, but I doubt this forum would like c@@ts, tw*ts, wan&ers, w&ore etc. to be written in reference to certain politicians and there fanboys.

[Worthy4England]

There seems to be maybe three of four points you're making Hobes - I won't suggest you "just shut up and stop bleating because your side didn't win the vote."

There is little doubt in my mind that pay (all, not just public sector) has generally devalued over the last 14 years in comparison to whichever measure of inflation suits you to use - would you agree? I'll come back to the next point, but further on you talk about costs of the workers rights plan - what has been the cost of strikes on business being at the highest level since the 70's? what's the cost of extended waiting times for operations and the like? I genuinely don't understand anyone outside maybe business owners wanting people below the poverty line - that cost is then picked up in direct tax as the state has to make UC payments as top up.

Defence spending. Was cut continuously over the last 14 years against 2009/10 figure. Whilst there's been some improvement from 2016 it's not reached the level it was at in 2009 yet...I'll give you from previous points you've made that this wasn't generally popular with you then either.

Lets talk AI for a minute - I think this needs thinking about it two halves - obviously there's bad usage of it and good usage of it. It needs a control framework but a bit like the negative aspects of social media - it's sorta out of the bag, albeit most folks probably won't get past AI deepfakes for a while. This has been a failure of governments all over the world so far. Most applications of AI in a "serious business context" have taken years to deliver and plan. The yardsticks by which it's judged are not the same as for humans - for example, in medical diagnostics, one application is scanning cancer images - it will still get some wrong, but it's initial assessment is better than just using human analysis - it should always still need a medical professional to examine and validate the results. Part of the problem is akin to the Post Office Horizon issue - IT never says my system is perfect, but people believe if something's usually right that's a 100% thing.

To the workers rights plan and the never mentioned bit - they certainly said "this is the plan". It's in their manifesto. Here's the lead-in section of it "Greater in-work security, better pay, and more autonomy in the workplace improve the lives of working people and bring substantial economic benefits. Britain’s outdated employment laws are not fit for the modern economy, and recent Conservative legislation has fuelled hostility and confrontation leading to the worst period in industrial relations since the 1980s." and some specifics "This will include banning exploitative zero hours contracts; ending fire and rehire; and introducing basic rights from day one to parental leave, sick pay, and protection from unfair dismissal." I'm supportive of all these, but would say small businesses need different help than big businesses

[Hoboh]

There seems to be maybe three of four points you're making Hobes - I won't suggest you "just shut up and stop bleating because your side didn't win the vote."

There is little doubt in my mind that pay (all, not just public sector) has generally devalued over the last 14 years in comparison to whichever measure of inflation suits you to use - would you agree? I'll come back to the next point, but further on you talk about costs of the workers rights plan - what has been the cost of strikes on business being at the highest level since the 70's? what's the cost of extended waiting times for operations and the like? I genuinely don't understand anyone outside maybe business owners wanting people below the poverty line - that cost is then picked up in direct tax as the state has to make UC payments as top up.

Defence spending. Was cut continuously over the last 14 years against 2009/10 figure. Whilst there's been some improvement from 2016 it's not reached the level it was at in 2009 yet...I'll give you from previous points you've made that this wasn't generally popular with you then either.

Lets talk AI for a minute - I think this needs thinking about it two halves - obviously there's bad usage of it and good usage of it. It needs a control framework but a bit like the negative aspects of social media - it's sorta out of the bag, albeit most folks probably won't get past AI deepfakes for a while. This has been a failure of governments all over the world so far. Most applications of AI in a "serious business context" have taken years to deliver and plan. The yardsticks by which it's judged are not the same as for humans - for example, in medical diagnostics, one application is scanning cancer images - it will still get some wrong, but it's initial assessment is better than just using human analysis - it should always still need a medical professional to examine and validate the results. Part of the problem is akin to the Post Office Horizon issue - IT never says my system is perfect, but people believe if something's usually right that's a 100% thing.

To the workers rights plan and the never mentioned bit - they certainly said "this is the plan". It's in their manifesto. Here's the lead-in section of it "Greater in-work security, better pay, and more autonomy in the workplace improve the lives of working people and bring substantial economic benefits. Britain’s outdated employment laws are not fit for the modern economy, and recent Conservative legislation has fuelled hostility and confrontation leading to the worst period in industrial relations since the 1980s." and some specifics "This will include banning exploitative zero hours contracts; ending fire and rehire; and introducing basic rights from day one to parental leave, sick pay, and protection from unfair dismissal." I'm supportive of all these, but would say small businesses need different help than big businesses

Oh yes, they had a plan but failed to mention the cost of it. You mention strikes, well you ain't seen nothing yet, again down to the workers rights reform. Now the latest is yet another 5 billion heading into public services to cover pension tax for public services that private folk are going to have to pay..... oh right, absolutely brilliant and fair minded are labour.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

No mate, I'm making quite legitimate points about labour, despite being able to access the same information as bwfci, seemed incapable whilst in opposition of finding the black holes in the economy which he seems to know all about. Only someone extremely foolish would fail to see that Reeves (there I've left out the robber bit) and the rest of the cabinet are angling to tax rises to pay off the unions. Half the world is at or involved in some sort of wars at the moment and I read yesterday that defence spending is going to take a tanking.
Oh dear, wages haven't gone up since 2010, well according, again to bwfci, I know, next, it will be 'in real terms'.
I had serious doubts about the intrusion of AI into human life, now I cannot wait for self driving trains, AI teachers and medical diagnostic equipment.
BTW labour never mentioned, bit like the black hole, the 5 billion cost to businesses to cover their 'workers rights' plan, did they?

Okay I get some fuddy duddies don't quite get the name calling, but I doubt this forum would like c@@ts, tw*ts, wan&ers, w&ore etc. to be written in reference to certain politicians and there fanboys.

Worthy put things better than I could. I don't agree with everything Labour are coming up with, but it is still an improvement on the last 14 years. We really need radical change of our economic system as the tinkering around the edges we're going to see is not going to fix anything, merely paper over the cracks. The first step is for us plebs to stop believing the shite we're being fed by the very rich people and their minions. That probably starts with the young folk and start teaching critical thinking from early. Its too late for the rest of us as no one is changing minds after being spoon fed bollocks all our lives.

[Worthy4England]

The cost of the plan. Estimated at about 1.5% of the cost of businesses employing staff. Which bits do you want removing? I do share any concerns around disproportionality in relation to small businesses as I said in my original post, but if business doesn't pick-up the cost of (for example) sick-pay, then you're picking up the tab already mate. I don't recall you or anyone else mentioning the costs to business of Brexit - in fact all you talked about was the benefit. So I don't think you're in a great place to lecture - not as if that'll stop you.

Your comment about public service pensions I'm not sure I understand correctly. Pensions aren't taxes (at the point you put into them), so what is the pensions tax you're referring to? The government (any government) doesn't set public sector pensions aside (in the manner you seem to be suggesting). They calculate the current yearly bill (often from policies set over the previous 40 (insert your own number) years) and that's the cost of pensions provisions which we pay through our tax. So no one is putting in an "additional $5bn" although it's effects will be felt over the next 40 years or so - like most things in this fecked up employer led capitalism they're trying to outstrip the debt with growth. Ha ha ha ha.

Whilst we're about it, just point us at all the complaining you did about these things over the last 14 years...

1) Promise not to increase tax in 2019 - managed to get tax to a 40 year high
2) Promise to reduce immigration - took it to the highest level on record
3) Promised "sunlit uplands" from getting Brexit done - cost businesses shitloads in additional red tape and tariffs, with some only kicking in April this year...
4) Promised 40 new hospitals - some of which they'd previously promised - not one built
5) Promised to raise pensions by whichever of the three triple lock criteria was highest - lost control of inflation - broke promise.


I could go on.

[BWFC_Insane]

Reeves has confirmed they will change the fiscal rules to allow for investment to be ‘removed’ or recalculated from the 5 year debt falling as % of GDP rule.

And in a single stroke that is the best thing any government of this country has done in 15 years. It’s a low bar admittedly. And I rather think she’s been forced to do it. But thank god.

[Worthy4England]

Reeves has confirmed they will change the fiscal rules to allow for investment to be ‘removed’ or recalculated from the 5 year debt falling as % of GDP rule.

And in a single stroke that is the best thing any government of this country has done in 15 years. It’s a low bar admittedly. And I rather think she’s been forced to do it. But thank god.

I wouldn't rush to "the best thing" line too quickly. Labour (because they've not been in power very long) have promised growth, but it will take time to see if there is any. If the markets believe this is fiddling the figures - which it clearly is - and won't directly drive growth, she might be having afternoon tea with Liz n Kwasi in short order. Similar, if they think it's subsidising general op costs..

When you're carrying the national debt we are, we're rather beholden to the markets. I'm a bit more hopeful a few hours after this was made public, that maybe she ran it by BoE and a few others to test the water...

[BWFC_Insane]

Reeves has confirmed they will change the fiscal rules to allow for investment to be ‘removed’ or recalculated from the 5 year debt falling as % of GDP rule.

And in a single stroke that is the best thing any government of this country has done in 15 years. It’s a low bar admittedly. And I rather think she’s been forced to do it. But thank god.

I wouldn't rush to "the best thing" line too quickly. Labour (because they've not been in power very long) have promised growth, but it will take time to see if there is any. If the markets believe this is fiddling the figures - which it clearly is - and won't directly drive growth, she might be having afternoon tea with Liz n Kwasi in short order. Similar, if they think it's subsidising general op costs..

When you're carrying the national debt we are, we're rather beholden to the markets. I'm a bit more hopeful a few hours after this was made public, that maybe she ran it by BoE and a few others to test the water...

Well yes. But their ‘Bidenomics’ plan with precisely zip to match fund with was going to fail as miserably as the last 14 years. We’ve now got a hand to play. At least. Need to play it well.

And she’s going to announce tighter ‘day to day’ spending rules to offset this to, she hopes, keep the markets on board. Apparently.

[Worthy4England]

Mate how dare you. We have HS2!

[BWFC_Insane]

Mate how dare you. We have HS2!

Well it might get as far as Crewe now, allegedly. A notoriously well known ‘hub’ of the north…oh….

[Hoboh]

Mate how dare you. We have HS2!

HS2 was first proposed by the Labour government in 2009 under Gordon Brown, and HS2 Ltd was established to explore the possibility of a high-speed rail line connecting London and more northern parts of the country.

Oh that HS2? Labour idea?