The Politics Thread

[BWFC_Insane]

When you attack the elderly

When you attack the charities

And then, attack your core supporters, the students, to pay off minorities driving trains and Gretas friends, you think you will win?

People's memories will stretch way beyond one term and all this won't be forgotten.

Oh, and insidious? I suppose shutting people and free speech doesn't count then?

The bottom line is that there was and is a need to raise money to fix the nhs. Labour are raising and spending a tiny fraction of what reform proposed. There will be people who are unhappy with tax changes but that’s the thing - the end result is what will ultimately matter. If Labour fix the nhs and the economy they have a chance. If they don’t they won’t.

As for free speech - you you’ve got it. It’s a total nonsense to suggest you don’t. And nobody is rounding up political opponents or threatening them.

[Hoboh]

When you attack the elderly

When you attack the charities

And then, attack your core supporters, the students, to pay off minorities driving trains and Gretas friends, you think you will win?

People's memories will stretch way beyond one term and all this won't be forgotten.

Oh, and insidious? I suppose shutting people and free speech doesn't count then?

The bottom line is that there was and is a need to raise money to fix the nhs. Labour are raising and spending a tiny fraction of what reform proposed. There will be people who are unhappy with tax changes but that’s the thing - the end result is what will ultimately matter. If Labour fix the nhs and the economy they have a chance. If they don’t they won’t.

As for free speech - you you’ve got it. It’s a total nonsense to suggest you don’t. And nobody is rounding up political opponents or threatening them.

I'm talking about shutting down speeches by people with different views in public at University or other places, the areas where the little Trotsky activists mostly inhabit, the one that seems to be also running rife through civil and public services.
The NHS will never be fixed until it is overhauled, root and branch but labours paymasters, the unions, will never allow that and frankly, the current government incumbents have not got the balls to do that.

[BWFC_Insane]

When you attack the elderly

When you attack the charities

And then, attack your core supporters, the students, to pay off minorities driving trains and Gretas friends, you think you will win?

People's memories will stretch way beyond one term and all this won't be forgotten.

Oh, and insidious? I suppose shutting people and free speech doesn't count then?

The bottom line is that there was and is a need to raise money to fix the nhs. Labour are raising and spending a tiny fraction of what reform proposed. There will be people who are unhappy with tax changes but that’s the thing - the end result is what will ultimately matter. If Labour fix the nhs and the economy they have a chance. If they don’t they won’t.

As for free speech - you you’ve got it. It’s a total nonsense to suggest you don’t. And nobody is rounding up political opponents or threatening them.

I'm talking about shutting down speeches by people with different views in public at University or other places, the areas where the little Trotsky activists mostly inhabit, the one that seems to be also running rife through civil and public services.
The NHS will never be fixed until it is overhauled, root and branch but labours paymasters, the unions, will never allow that and frankly, the current government incumbents have not got the balls to do that.

How many speeches have you given or even been to on university campuses?

The idea that you think there are Trotsky activists running rife through the civil and public services again is just ridiculous. I don’t know how many civil servants you’ve encountered or senior ones but they are the polar opposite of ‘Trotsky activists’. Most are shiny suited consultant types.

[Worthy4England]

When you attack the elderly

When you attack the charities

And then, attack your core supporters, the students, to pay off minorities driving trains and Gretas friends, you think you will win?

People's memories will stretch way beyond one term and all this won't be forgotten.

Oh, and insidious? I suppose shutting people and free speech doesn't count then?

I'm delighted people have long memories - unfortunately most of 'em don't seem to have long memories at all.

The Tory's voted against winter fuel allowance in 1997 and by the time labour left office in 2010, it had gone up from £100 to £300 if memory serves. Since when, in 14 years, AFAIK, it wasn't increase once, the total paid out went down year on year, to the point, they reduced what labour were paying out by about £14bn. You mean that sort of attack on the elderly?

Dunno the precise point on charities - but happy for you to help me out there.

Students. Do you remember - that memory thing again - when tuition fees were £3k? it was 2010. I wonder who put them up to £9k instantaneously. Yeah - let me help your long memory - that was the Tories too.

Free speech - wasn't it the previous government who extended police powers around our rights to express views? Can someone please explain to me why there needs to be additional legislation for Universities? I mean I have no problem with teachers putting forwards alternative views, but they shouldn't be unilaterally protected. Unlawful speech remains unprotected, so I'm not sure what the new legislation is trying to achieve, other than it seems to create additional burden and overheads on the Universities?

[Hoboh]

When you attack the elderly

When you attack the charities

And then, attack your core supporters, the students, to pay off minorities driving trains and Gretas friends, you think you will win?

People's memories will stretch way beyond one term and all this won't be forgotten.

Oh, and insidious? I suppose shutting people and free speech doesn't count then?

I'm delighted people have long memories - unfortunately most of 'em don't seem to have long memories at all.

The Tory's voted against winter fuel allowance in 1997 and by the time labour left office in 2010, it had gone up from £100 to £300 if memory serves. Since when, in 14 years, AFAIK, it wasn't increase once, the total paid out went down year on year, to the point, they reduced what labour were paying out by about £14bn. You mean that sort of attack on the elderly?

Aye OK
The increase in the qualifying age, coupled with the fact that payment amounts are not uprated annually in line with inflation, has meant that total expenditure on Winter Fuel Payments in Great Britain has fallen in real (inflation-adjusted) terms. DWP expenditure on Winter Fuel Payments fell from £3.9 billion in winter 2008/2029 to an estimated £2.0 billion in winter 2023/2024 (both figures at 2024/2025 prices).
The £14 billion?

Dunno the precise point on charities - but happy for you to help me out there.
NIC changes.

Students. Do you remember - that memory thing again - when tuition fees were £3k? it was 2010. I wonder who put them up to £9k instantaneously. Yeah - let me help your long memory - that was the Tories too.

Aye let's not forget who introduced them in the first place

Free speech - wasn't it the previous government who extended police powers around our rights to express views? Can someone please explain to me why there needs to be additional legislation for Universities? I mean I have no problem with teachers putting forwards alternative views, but they shouldn't be unilaterally protected. Unlawful speech remains unprotected, so I'm not sure what the new legislation is trying to achieve, other than it seems to create additional burden and overheads on the Universities?

It's okay, just shut down debates and speech because yo don't like hearing what others have to say, block the halls etc.
The real funny ones just out today are from the comical social media influencer,
If you voted Trump, don't follow me

[Worthy4England]

I would stop any views being posted for improper use of the "quote" feature!

I mean, yes, pensioners have been hit, clearly, I'm not happy about it in part. I don't think pensioners on 40k pensions should necessarily get it. What increase to qualifying age are you on about? They were always linked to State Pension age. Changes to State Pension Age was Tories, mate. The bit about £14bn, was the Tories taking groups out of qualifying ober the 14 years, they saved about £14bn...

We shall remember and haven't forgot who introduced tuition fees. They were based on the Deeming? report recommendations, commissioned by the Tories. Are you hoping they come back onto the taxpayers tab, directly? Good man, we look forwards to it being in your manifesto.

FWIW, I don't agree with restricting speech in the sense that it's not breaking other laws. I think you listen patiently then counter if it's a debate...

[Worthy4England]

UK riots - I'm a bit concerned having read numerous court accounts, at just how easy it is to get caught up in a riot, completely unintentionally. So many people, "just out walking the dog," "popped out to buy some quinoa," "taking my kids to the skatepark." People, just going about their day to day business and someone slapped a riot right in front of them, that they got caught up in.

I'm going to start selling anti-riot insurance to the general public, it won't lessen the sentence, but there's a few quid to help pay the 18 month drugs tab you built-up, before they send someone to get you on the outside*.



* Payment due 36 months after successful completion of whole term of the sentence.

[Hoboh]

UK riots - I'm a bit concerned having read numerous court accounts, at just how easy it is to get caught up in a riot, completely unintentionally. So many people, "just out walking the dog," "popped out to buy some quinoa," "taking my kids to the skatepark." People, just going about their day to day business and someone slapped a riot right in front of them, that they got caught up in.

I'm going to start selling anti-riot insurance to the general public, it won't lessen the sentence, but there's a few quid to help pay the 18 month drugs tab you built-up, before they send someone to get you on the outside*.



* Payment due 36 months after successful completion of whole term of the sentence.

I know it hilarious.

It really does, on a serious note, bring into question the professionalism and competence of the legal people representing them.

[Worthy4England]

UK riots - I'm a bit concerned having read numerous court accounts, at just how easy it is to get caught up in a riot, completely unintentionally. So many people, "just out walking the dog," "popped out to buy some quinoa," "taking my kids to the skatepark." People, just going about their day to day business and someone slapped a riot right in front of them, that they got caught up in.

I'm going to start selling anti-riot insurance to the general public, it won't lessen the sentence, but there's a few quid to help pay the 18 month drugs tab you built-up, before they send someone to get you on the outside*.



* Payment due 36 months after successful completion of whole term of the sentence.

I know it hilarious.

It really does, on a serious note, bring into question the professionalism and competence of the legal people representing them.

I guess the job of a defender is to throw as much "potential" mitigating shit in, as they can - which can certainly get tricky when your client has "guilty as fcuk" tattooed across their forehead.

[Prufrock]

Aye. You can't well go in as a defence lawyer and say "yeah tbf your honour I'd be chucking away the key on this one".

[Prufrock]

Back to America, I do worry that post cold war, the end of history etc, liberal capitalist democracy has stopped defending itself and over time it's not surprising support bleeds away to people who have a clear message if what they are for.

To take two examples:

1) immigration - the underlying point about why we have the levels of immigration we do is because the people in charge think we need it. To do lots of really important, unattractive jobs, you either need to pay people more and raise taxes, not fill those jobs, or use immigrants. There is also a case for the benefit of immigration in itself. But the centre has stopped explaining it. So you get Farage saying everything bad is due to immigration, and you go to see what the counter argument is and it's not "immigration is a good thing, it needs to be controlled but we have a plan and long term it benefits everyone" but instead it's "don't be a racist".

2) tariffs/ subsidy control - the economic consensus over decades has been free trade is best. Low tariffs, and no subsidies. It means eg manufacturing jobs go offshore but are replaced with better quality, higher paying jobs. Everyone wins. But again, you don't hear anyone making that argument. Farage says the greedy global companies have sent the jobs to India and let domestic manufacturing die, that's why you have no job.

I'm not btw saying I even necessarily agree with those "pro" arguments, but it's striking that you just don't hear them made.

I guess they've decided you can't win votes that way. But they aren't going a great job by saying nothing.

[boltonboris]

Jonathan Pie sums it up perfectly in his latest rant

The serial liar, criminal, sexual abuser and often bankrupted Donald Trump has won the presidential election and here's why..

[Hoboh]

I've been reading a fair bit today about the US election and ignoring, yes I really do find it amusing, grenades being lobbed about by the Dems, it's Clooney's fault, it's Bidens fault, it's Oprah and her pals fault, it seems there is a whole lot more.

Trumps share of voters in areas he shouldn't be accumulating votes has shifted from the Dems, who frankly and this seems the general consensus, took the folk for granted.
All the things Latinos and others mentioned are all relevant to things in the UK, inflation, cost of living/energy and migration, people stating, I came here the correct way and now these illegals will be stealing my job etc. One other point I've seen a few times and I know this definitely will upset one or two on here, they said we came here to escape socialist politics that were ruining our countries, we don't need it here.

[BWFC_Insane]

Back to America, I do worry that post cold war, the end of history etc, liberal capitalist democracy has stopped defending itself and over time it's not surprising support bleeds away to people who have a clear message if what they are for.

To take two examples:

1) immigration - the underlying point about why we have the levels of immigration we do is because the people in charge think we need it. To do lots of really important, unattractive jobs, you either need to pay people more and raise taxes, not fill those jobs, or use immigrants. There is also a case for the benefit of immigration in itself. But the centre has stopped explaining it. So you get Farage saying everything bad is due to immigration, and you go to see what the counter argument is and it's not "immigration is a good thing, it needs to be controlled but we have a plan and long term it benefits everyone" but instead it's "don't be a racist".

2) tariffs/ subsidy control - the economic consensus over decades has been free trade is best. Low tariffs, and no subsidies. It means eg manufacturing jobs go offshore but are replaced with better quality, higher paying jobs. Everyone wins. But again, you don't hear anyone making that argument. Farage says the greedy global companies have sent the jobs to India and let domestic manufacturing die, that's why you have no job.

I'm not btw saying I even necessarily agree with those "pro" arguments, but it's striking that you just don't hear them made.

I guess they've decided you can't win votes that way. But they aren't going a great job by saying nothing.

Spitting facts here is Pru.

It’s hugely frustrating that the basic economic arguments aren’t made anymore. We need more immigrants because we’ve a bunch of boomers retiring and not a large enough workforce behind them and without immigration our economy won’t grow. Instead they have to try and pretend we are reducing immigration whilst increasing it.

Democrats were even worse. Harris basically offered no policy and no argument for anything. Just ‘vibes’.

[Worthy4England]

TBF, if you wanted to pick the easiest sales pitch, you wouldn't pick labours - "We'll take some money off you and splash it around a few places, which you may or may not benefit from then when you die, we'll look to take more off you" - As an "all in it together" pitch post-war it might have worked, this is 70 years later and they haven't updated it much.

[BWFC_Insane]

TBF, if you wanted to pick the easiest sales pitch, you wouldn't pick labours - "We'll take some money off you and splash it around a few places, which you may or may not benefit from then when you die, we'll look to take more off you" - As an "all in it together" pitch post-war it might have worked, this is 70 years later and they haven't updated it much.

Indeed - that’s why it wasn’t their sales pitch in 2024. But their sales pitch was basically none existent beyond ‘we are better than the Tories’. Which worked this time but won’t next.

[Worthy4England]

TBF, if you wanted to pick the easiest sales pitch, you wouldn't pick labours - "We'll take some money off you and splash it around a few places, which you may or may not benefit from then when you die, we'll look to take more off you" - As an "all in it together" pitch post-war it might have worked, this is 70 years later and they haven't updated it much.

Indeed - that’s why it wasn’t their sales pitch in 2024. But their sales pitch was basically none existent beyond ‘we are better than the Tories’. Which worked this time but won’t next.

But the problem is, everyone knows it's their sales pitch - whether they pitch it or not!

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I've been reading a fair bit today about the US election and ignoring, yes I really do find it amusing, grenades being lobbed about by the Dems, it's Clooney's fault, it's Bidens fault, it's Oprah and her pals fault, it seems there is a whole lot more.

Trumps share of voters in areas he shouldn't be accumulating votes has shifted from the Dems, who frankly and this seems the general consensus, took the folk for granted.
All the things Latinos and others mentioned are all relevant to things in the UK, inflation, cost of living/energy and migration, people stating, I came here the correct way and now these illegals will be stealing my job etc. One other point I've seen a few times and I know this definitely will upset one or two on here, they said we came here to escape socialist politics that were ruining our countries, we don't need it here.

The thing is Hobes, the vast majority of immigrants are legal. The Tories have been letting them in with visas and to cover the fact they're distracting you with the boats and illegal immigration. The boats won't go away until you allow folk to legitimately apply to come here (whether you say yes or no is another matter).

[BWFC_Insane]

TBF, if you wanted to pick the easiest sales pitch, you wouldn't pick labours - "We'll take some money off you and splash it around a few places, which you may or may not benefit from then when you die, we'll look to take more off you" - As an "all in it together" pitch post-war it might have worked, this is 70 years later and they haven't updated it much.

Indeed - that’s why it wasn’t their sales pitch in 2024. But their sales pitch was basically none existent beyond ‘we are better than the Tories’. Which worked this time but won’t next.

But the problem is, everyone knows it's their sales pitch - whether they pitch it or not!

Maybe they should change it to ‘we will have the best health in the world. Health will never have been so big. Make health great again.’

[Hoboh]

I've been reading a fair bit today about the US election and ignoring, yes I really do find it amusing, grenades being lobbed about by the Dems, it's Clooney's fault, it's Bidens fault, it's Oprah and her pals fault, it seems there is a whole lot more.

Trumps share of voters in areas he shouldn't be accumulating votes has shifted from the Dems, who frankly and this seems the general consensus, took the folk for granted.
All the things Latinos and others mentioned are all relevant to things in the UK, inflation, cost of living/energy and migration, people stating, I came here the correct way and now these illegals will be stealing my job etc. One other point I've seen a few times and I know this definitely will upset one or two on here, they said we came here to escape socialist politics that were ruining our countries, we don't need it here.

The thing is Hobes, the vast majority of immigrants are legal. The Tories have been letting them in with visas and to cover the fact they're distracting you with the boats and illegal immigration. The boats won't go away until you allow folk to legitimately apply to come here (whether you say yes or no is another matter).

We already do allow folk to come here by legal routes, Afghans, Hong Kong, Ukrainians, but I draw the line at pick n chose where to stay African migrants and others not fleeing war, Albania etc.