The cup that cheers.. E.F.L Away to Wrexham Tues Feb 11th 7-30.

[dave the minion]

To be fair, I seem to recall Collins taking some time to bed in to the team after we signed him - and now look at him and his contributions to the team.

Give these guys time and, just maybe, the benefit of the doubt can we? When we were linked with McAtee and Randall most on here (and off here) were pleased to be linked with these players and supportive of the deals. When Markham et al sanctioned the signings and we paid cash for them we were pleased as punch.

Now, given that they've not instantly hit double figures, in a dysfunctional team and environment, its all about how they were terrible signings, we over-paid, and the recruitment team need their collective bumps feeling for even looking at them in the first place.

Frankly, its ridiculous. Not altogether unsurprising given some of the tripe I regularly hear trotted out from fans, but ridiculous all the same

[Bertie Wooster]

Questioning what we’ve spent on players and accepting that some haven’t really worked out for the fees paid is not toxic.

No, it's not. People saying they want Santos' injury to be career ending and wishing it had been Vic, rather than the Wrexham lad, in a car crash is.

Who's said this ?

Santos is my favourite & best player throughout Evatt's time at the club, I still want him to get back to where he was & sign a new contract.

[BWFC_Insane]

To be fair, I seem to recall Collins taking some time to bed in to the team after we signed him - and now look at him and his contributions to the team.

Give these guys time and, just maybe, the benefit of the doubt can we? When we were linked with McAtee and Randall most on here (and off here) were pleased to be linked with these players and supportive of the deals. When Markham et al sanctioned the signings and we paid cash for them we were pleased as punch.

Now, given that they've not instantly hit double figures, in a dysfunctional team and environment, its all about how they were terrible signings, we over-paid, and the recruitment team need their collective bumps feeling for even looking at them in the first place.

Frankly, its ridiculous. Not altogether unsurprising given some of the tripe I regularly hear trotted out from fans, but ridiculous all the same

Collins scored 8 in 19 after joining us in January last season….so no idea really how that’s comparable.

Also given your judgement on Evatt - who you now describe as creating a ‘dysfunctional team and environment’ it might be best not to dismiss other opinions as tripe. Given you’ve not really shown a great judgement in the last year.

[dave the minion]

Questioning what we’ve spent on players and accepting that some haven’t really worked out for the fees paid is not toxic.

No, it's not. People saying they want Santos' injury to be career ending and wishing it had been Vic, rather than the Wrexham lad, in a car crash is.

Quite. Toxic and quite frankly disgusting. But as I said in my previous post, disappointingly not surprising from a section of our "fans".

The atmosphere in the away end was amazing for 95% of the match last night, but sadly the other 5% was filled with hate and vitriol for some of OUR OWN PLAYERS by a not so small minority.

Until the day I slip off this mortal coil I will never fathom the mindset of a supposed fan of a team hurling abuse at our own players, who, incidentally, are out there working their arses off to try to win. Sure, not everything they try comes off, and some (all?) make mistakes, but the stuff people shout is truly horrific sometimes.....

[BWFC_Insane]

Questioning what we’ve spent on players and accepting that some haven’t really worked out for the fees paid is not toxic.

No, it's not. People saying they want Santos' injury to be career ending and wishing it had been Vic, rather than the Wrexham lad, in a car crash is.

I haven’t seen anything said like that but then I don’t use the social media’s beyond deadline day.

My advise would be similarly to stop using whatever place you see that sort of stuff. It’s much better for mental health.

[Bertie Wooster]

On another note is prime Drogba fit for the weekend ?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

On another note is prime Drogba fit for the weekend ?

Getting bored of saying that Etete is not prime Drogba, that "prime Drogba" was a joky reference to the sort of player we can't afford

[Worthy4England]

I mean 1 every 190 minutes sounds decent, but if he has 2 events in one game, it's still only altering one game, not two

We can stat each other to death, but I have the feeling he's not working as well as we envisaged when we spunked dosh on him, nor that the team has worked very well since we bought both him and Collins...

Another bit in a bag of bits.

On the first bit, same with any attacker. Dion scored a hattrick and several pens one season, which covered-up for the fact he doesn't score often enough from open play to be your primary striker. His game was built on work rate and once that faded he became pretty useless - as Huddersfield are finding out.

Macca has been better than Dion this season, but not good enough as yet.

It is a bag of bits, but that's now on Schumacher to sort out. Its a bag of very high quality bits for the level and he should be able to make something out of most of them, given proper time.

Last season Macca had a good time - his general play was good, his pressing was just about the best in the division and he scored or assisted about every 160 minutes he was on the pitch.

Similarly Joel Randall was at about GA per-90 of 0.5, which for an attacking midfielder is top end.

Collins put up similar numbers last season to Macca.

That doesn't mean all of them can play in the same 11 effectively. If Schumacher can make that happen, amazing. They all tend to stay fit, so it's a good start to a winning side. What it is is a collection of players who can, in the right system, win you games.

What you don't do is write players off after 6 months in a dodgy side, especially when they are scoring and creating goals.

McAtee is 25 and signed a 3 year deal. He's arrived at a time of upheaval. Everyone needs to chill out a bit and allow the new gaffer time to work. Same goes for calls being made on Joel Randall after half a dozen games during which the guy who signed him has left.

Might come as a shock, but I don't disagree with most of this, particularly. I haven't I don't think really called out any of our players (if you forgive the odd muttering of "you fcuking carthorse," aside from the bag of bits point. Other have. .

Where I might take a bit of issue is that we can cut it numerous ways depending what point we're trying to defend (or conversely disprove). Generally, I would say Dion was a pretty good signing for us, and as part of a system that broadly worked in an attacking sense, (Anyone remember our 124 goal year? we heard enough about it.) I've not seen anything enough of McAtee yet to understand whether he will replace Dion on a like for like basis or be better (or worse). Also bearing in mind that we didn't that often partner Dion with Collins and or McAtee and not at all with Randall. Would he have got a lot more with Randall feeding him? - no one really knows. So I'm not sure the comparisons help me much.

My current view of those mentioned for what it's worth, is I haven't seen an overall improvement - I don't think that's too controversial. That doesn't make them necessarily poor players, but there's more to teams than individual player capability. We have an opportunity now to see how a different manager deals with our bag of bits. Maybe if they're still shit, it's more the bits than the manager. But the "strength of this system" was espoused as you can change coach and retain that philosophy without changing squads etc. I await the next installment coming to fruition.

[GhostoftheBok]

Collins scored 8 in 19 after joining us in January last season….so no idea really how that’s comparable.

So Macca's stats back up his contribution too then?

Glorious. Glad we're not picking and choosing when it matters and when it doesn't.

[Worthy4England]

Questioning what we’ve spent on players and accepting that some haven’t really worked out for the fees paid is not toxic.

No, it's not. People saying they want Santos' injury to be career ending and wishing it had been Vic, rather than the Wrexham lad, in a car crash is.

Who on here has said that?

[dave the minion]

On another note is prime Drogba fit for the weekend ?

Getting bored of saying that Etete is not prime Drogba, that "prime Drogba" was a joky reference to the sort of player we can't afford

Please stop ruining the popular narrative will you with your boring facts.....

[BWFC_Insane]

Collins scored 8 in 19 after joining us in January last season….so no idea really how that’s comparable.

So Macca's stats back up his contribution too then?

Glorious. Glad we're not picking and choosing when it matters and when it doesn't.

6 in 29.

That’s a comparison of close to 1 in 2 as opposed to close to 1 in 5.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

One of the reasons I wanted Evatt gone was that he was underachieving with the "bag of bits" available. I don't think our recruitment has been 100% successful but it never is - Fergie was happy with 50% - and there's usually selective memory employed (who'd have suggested Osei-Tutu, or Dacres-Cogley, or Eoin Toal, or the latest honest-john hero Will Forrester?).

Big-ticket underachievers will always attract more attention, though. Maybe fans are as disappointed "for" McAtee as "with" him - seems to me he's been shifted from pillar to post, as well as playing in Evatt's dog days and then the uncertainty of a new gaffer.

What I would say is that Schumacher seems to prefer a single striker with 2 or 3 in that attacking-midfield slot, so there's plenty of room for him to fit the bits. I still fear we haven't got a 9 but let's see. Hopefully Schuey's flexibility will mean it's not just one 'type' we need (might be a target man one week, a Dion-type scuttler the next) and the key for the rest of this season will be how well he can employ what he has - and identify what's missing for summer recruitment.

[dave the minion]

Collins scored 8 in 19 after joining us in January last season….so no idea really how that’s comparable.

Also given your judgement on Evatt - who you now describe as creating a ‘dysfunctional team and environment’ it might be best not to dismiss other opinions as tripe. Given you’ve not really shown a great judgement in the last year.

Yep, bad judgement on my part - if it makes you happy to think that I may have been wrong and you are right all the time then crack on son...... Just be aware that making the same complaint/comment over and over (and over and over and over and over) again doesn't make it any more right either...



Anyway.....

Unless my ageing brain is deceiving me (entirely possible....), but I think Collins took some time to find his feet after signing - weren't there mumblings of him struggling with the relocation and living in the hotel our of a suitcase for a bit?

But yes, he did then go on to score 8 in 19 - which is exactly the point I'm making!!!!

So how about we give the likes of Randall more than 17 seconds to settle shall we, before writing him off as an "expensive" "luxury" player who doesn't fit into our team/system (even though we don't yet know what the new manager's team/system is going to look like!)??

[BWFC_Insane]

One of the reasons I wanted Evatt gone was that he was underachieving with the "bag of bits" available. I don't think our recruitment has been 100% successful but it never is - Fergie was happy with 50% - and there's usually selective memory employed (who'd have suggested Osei-Tutu, or Dacres-Cogley, or Eoin Toal, or the latest honest-john hero Will Forrester?).

Big-ticket underachievers will always attract more attention, though. Maybe fans are as disappointed "for" McAtee as "with" him - seems to me he's been shifted from pillar to post, as well as playing in Evatt's dog days and then the uncertainty of a new gaffer.

What I would say is that Schumacher seems to prefer a single striker with 2 or 3 in that attacking-midfield slot, so there's plenty of room for him to fit the bits. I still fear we haven't got a 9 but let's see. Hopefully Schuey's flexibility will mean it's not just one 'type' we need (might be a target man one week, a Dion-type scuttler the next) and the key for the rest of this season will be how well he can employ what he has - and identify what's missing for summer recruitment.

I don’t think McAtee is a terrible player I just didn’t understand why we wanted him nor why we paid the fee we did. Said so at the time too. He grafts and I think in the right circumstances would be useful.

But we shouldn’t have spent the money we did on him imo. That’s not his fault. Scheuy has to try and find a way to get the best out of him for now at least till the summer when we can see which bits of the bag he wishes to keep and what he wants to add.

I mean with an out and out number 9 McAtee might look very good. I could see that. The trouble is we don’t have one. But the same probably goes for Collins too.

[BWFC_Insane]

Collins scored 8 in 19 after joining us in January last season….so no idea really how that’s comparable.

Also given your judgement on Evatt - who you now describe as creating a ‘dysfunctional team and environment’ it might be best not to dismiss other opinions as tripe. Given you’ve not really shown a great judgement in the last year.

Yep, bad judgement on my part - if it makes you happy to think that I may have been wrong and you are right all the time then crack on son...... Just be aware that making the same complaint/comment over and over (and over and over and over and over) again doesn't make it any more right either...



Anyway.....

Unless my ageing brain is deceiving me (entirely possible....), but I think Collins took some time to find his feet after signing - weren't there mumblings of him struggling with the relocation and living in the hotel our of a suitcase for a bit?

But yes, he did then go on to score 8 in 19 - which is exactly the point I'm making!!!!

So how about we give the likes of Randall more than 17 seconds to settle shall we, before writing him off as an "expensive" "luxury" player who doesn't fit into our team/system (even though we don't yet know what the new manager's team/system is going to look like!)??

I think the thing is nobody is saying Randall is a bad player. I think all I and others are saying is he’s not the player we needed. Again this was not hindsight. We didn’t need another technically good number ten who we don’t really have a convincing way to accommodate them. Not the players fault.

In Randall’s case the fact that as others have noted he pulls out of challenges and seems to not fancy the workrate much doesn’t help either.

[GhostoftheBok]

Might come as a shock, but I don't disagree with most of this, particularly. I haven't I don't think really called out any of our players (if you forgive the odd muttering of "you fcuking carthorse," aside from the bag of bits point. Other have. .

Where I might take a bit of issue is that we can cut it numerous ways depending what point we're trying to defend (or conversely disprove). Generally, I would say Dion was a pretty good signing for us, and as part of a system that broadly worked in an attacking sense, (Anyone remember our 124 goal year? we heard enough about it.) I've not seen anything enough of McAtee yet to understand whether he will replace Dion on a like for like basis or be better (or worse). Also bearing in mind that we didn't that often partner Dion with Collins and or McAtee and not at all with Randall. Would he have got a lot more with Randall feeding him? - no one really knows. So I'm not sure the comparisons help me much.

My current view of those mentioned for what it's worth, is I haven't seen an overall improvement - I don't think that's too controversial. That doesn't make them necessarily poor players, but there's more to teams than individual player capability. We have an opportunity now to see how a different manager deals with our bag of bits. Maybe if they're still shit, it's more the bits than the manager. But the "strength of this system" was espoused as you can change coach and retain that philosophy without changing squads etc. I await the next installment coming to fruition.

I mostly agree with the stuff here.

Players need to be given jobs they can do. Dion was given a specific job that was based on his work rate and aggression, which he did exceptionally well.

The role we signed Macca to fulfil got deleted when Evatt abandoned his new system. Suddenly we needed Macca to be a #9 that Collins could play off (which he's not), or a #10 playmaker (which he's also not). He's scored and made goals and he's worked his arse off, but he's not been given a job that suits his skillset and he's struggled to do those other jobs in a team that was falling to bits. He's been played as a target man at times and as a #8 at others - then we're complaining he's not doing well enough. How many players would we expect to look great in both roles? It's a credit to him that he's done his best to have an impact wherever he's been asked to play. If we'd played Dion in midfield how well would he have done? When Evatt tried to play him as a #10 a couple of times he was useless. He was also crap as a lone striker.

We have got to let the manager work with these players and see how it pans out after the summer. In the short term he can hopefully get enough out of them to give us the dream of the play off final, but it'll be after that that he can add the other pieces that let him make this his own team. When these lads have settled roles in a team with a clear plan to win games, we can say who is and isn't going to work out.

Anyone saying they just fundamentally lack ability is watching a different game to me.

[GhostoftheBok]

Who on here has said that?

I didn't say anyone on here has. This forum is a tiny fraction of the online discussion around BWFC. I said "the usual suspects online."

[Worthy4England]

One of the reasons I wanted Evatt gone was that he was underachieving with the "bag of bits" available. I don't think our recruitment has been 100% successful but it never is - Fergie was happy with 50% - and there's usually selective memory employed (who'd have suggested Osei-Tutu, or Dacres-Cogley, or Eoin Toal, or the latest honest-john hero Will Forrester?).

Big-ticket underachievers will always attract more attention, though. Maybe fans are as disappointed "for" McAtee as "with" him - seems to me he's been shifted from pillar to post, as well as playing in Evatt's dog days and then the uncertainty of a new gaffer.

What I would say is that Schumacher seems to prefer a single striker with 2 or 3 in that attacking-midfield slot, so there's plenty of room for him to fit the bits. I still fear we haven't got a 9 but let's see. Hopefully Schuey's flexibility will mean it's not just one 'type' we need (might be a target man one week, a Dion-type scuttler the next) and the key for the rest of this season will be how well he can employ what he has - and identify what's missing for summer recruitment.

Reasonable. But I come back to my old favourite, that this model we're following was supposed to be better than a manager controlling pretty much everything (a la Fergie) - I mean he almost certainly didn't start his own spreadsheet of targets, but there was nowt much important happened without him. This model is supposed to give us advantages and is the only model successful teams follow.

We should get a better view as to whether our bag of bits can work with our new Head Coach, or it'll likely be his fault too. There's also the notion that last years bag of bits that ran into 1st during the first half of the season was actually a better team with a more nuanced approach, that the improvements we made to it from January last year. I doubt we'll ever know whether Evatt was pressing for a 4-3-3 or was told we can now buy these bits so maybe you should move to a 433.

[GhostoftheBok]

I still fear we haven't got a 9 but let's see.

At the minute, no. Vic is working hard again, but he's so clearly shot in terms of confidence. If Schumacher can get his head right then maybe we can get enough out of him.

At Plymouth his "target man" looked more like Collins than he did like Kevin Davies, so who knows. I love Collins, but he's not an aggressive pressing player.

Right now you'd say that's a priority for the summer.