Taking Stock; A visit from the neighbours. V Hatters, Sat, 15th Mr. 12-30.

[BWFC_Insane]

If we'd have dropped Randall, played a back four, with Tutu on the left wing we'd have caused their RB no end of problems he couldn't cope with him. We're back to our Evatt ways, massively overcomplicating things, sideways and backwards, causing all our own problems. It might not be popular but that result is on Schumacher. Of course he's done well so far and I'm not going to start slating him but if that performance was under Evatt he'd be getting pelters and rightly so.

People put too much emphasis on selection and tactics. Sure there are things to be criticised but yesterday came down to us being unable to break them down and then being very organised. I don’t rate Randal at all but I think it’s a stretch to say a different selection substantially changes the result. We’ve had similar setups in games we’ve won. Schumacher has rarely played a traditional back four and the one time he definitely has we had to revert to a back three to win the game from behind. He’s playing a hybrid system and yesterday was no different there. We lacked the quality to break them down. Maybe the energy. But the players aren’t his. He’s working with huge things missing and trying to make do and mend. We don’t have a single real striker available to play.

[dave the minion]

It's really not, yes he over complicated the selection yesterday but these are all Evatt's players - the squad is so unbalanced, no No9's, no powerful combative midfielders, apart from Osei-Tutu there is no pace. Schumacher is limited with what he can do on the pitch as the squad is so limited - all of our attacking options are No10's, we have boat loads of them but no actual strikers. We have too many lightweight players IMO, a lack of leaders - all the same issues we had with Evatt but Schumacher is much more flexible tactically

Yesterday was an Evatt like performance from Evatt's players.

Sorry, but what a load of old codswallop....

This unbalanced squad, with no proper strikers, and full of leaderless, lightweight players, had won 5 and drawn 1 prior to this week, including drawing away at he 3rd place team and playing the runaway leaders completely of the park and scoring 14 goals in the process.

I suspect most of the Division's managers would be happy to deal with such a "limited" bunch.

The squad is largely fine. The manager is largely very good. It'll come.....

[Spartan2]

If we'd have dropped Randall, played a back four, with Tutu on the left wing we'd have caused their RB no end of problems he couldn't cope with him. We're back to our Evatt ways, massively overcomplicating things, sideways and backwards, causing all our own problems. It might not be popular but that result is on Schumacher. Of course he's done well so far and I'm not going to start slating him but if that performance was under Evatt he'd be getting pelters and rightly so.

People put too much emphasis on selection and tactics. Sure there are things to be criticised but yesterday came down to us being unable to break them down and then being very organised. I don’t rate Randal at all but I think it’s a stretch to say a different selection substantially changes the result. We’ve had similar setups in games we’ve won. Schumacher has rarely played a traditional back four and the one time he definitely has we had to revert to a back three to win the game from behind. He’s playing a hybrid system and yesterday was no different there. We lacked the quality to break them down. Maybe the energy. But the players aren’t his. He’s working with huge things missing and trying to make do and mend. We don’t have a single real striker available to play.

You hear a fair few managers come out with this beauty, it sounds intelligent and reflective and some fans fall for it, but it's just manager speak for "don't blame me".

[Bertie Wooster]

It's really not, yes he over complicated the selection yesterday but these are all Evatt's players - the squad is so unbalanced, no No9's, no powerful combative midfielders, apart from Osei-Tutu there is no pace. Schumacher is limited with what he can do on the pitch as the squad is so limited - all of our attacking options are No10's, we have boat loads of them but no actual strikers. We have too many lightweight players IMO, a lack of leaders - all the same issues we had with Evatt but Schumacher is much more flexible tactically

Yesterday was an Evatt like performance from Evatt's players.

Sorry, but what a load of old codswallop....

This unbalanced squad, with no proper strikers, and full of leaderless, lightweight players, had won 5 and drawn 1 prior to this week, including drawing away at he 3rd place team and playing the runaway leaders completely of the park and scoring 14 goals in the process.

I suspect most of the Division's managers would be happy to deal with such a "limited" bunch.

The squad is largely fine. The manager is largely very good. It'll come.....

You keep believing Dave....it's all about opinions. If you want to stay in Div 3 for ever and a day crack on !

[BWFC_Insane]

If we'd have dropped Randall, played a back four, with Tutu on the left wing we'd have caused their RB no end of problems he couldn't cope with him. We're back to our Evatt ways, massively overcomplicating things, sideways and backwards, causing all our own problems. It might not be popular but that result is on Schumacher. Of course he's done well so far and I'm not going to start slating him but if that performance was under Evatt he'd be getting pelters and rightly so.

People put too much emphasis on selection and tactics. Sure there are things to be criticised but yesterday came down to us being unable to break them down and then being very organised. I don’t rate Randal at all but I think it’s a stretch to say a different selection substantially changes the result. We’ve had similar setups in games we’ve won. Schumacher has rarely played a traditional back four and the one time he definitely has we had to revert to a back three to win the game from behind. He’s playing a hybrid system and yesterday was no different there. We lacked the quality to break them down. Maybe the energy. But the players aren’t his. He’s working with huge things missing and trying to make do and mend. We don’t have a single real striker available to play.

You hear a fair few managers come out with this beauty, it sounds intelligent and reflective and some fans fall for it, but it's just manager speak for "don't blame me".

Not really. A manager builds a whole culture and puts a team together in their image. Everything ultimately is on them after reasonable time periods but too often results are described as being down to tactics or some manager outdoing another through in game tactics. Yes it happens. But under Schuey we’ve basically won most from behind having to change what we started with. It shows good adaptability but the counter is they’ve been narrow games where you could argue we’ve setup incorrectly from the start. The back four argument feels particularly redundant to me given we are playing with a hybrid 3/4 and getting Tutu high up the pitch. He had a poor game Saturday. Was that because Stockport managed him or just one of those days?

Stockport made three changes at half time presumably in part because they felt they’d not been able to hold the ball well enough. So maybe our initial setup worked. If we had a 6ft 5 giant who is fit can run to come on up front maybe we’d have swung the battle and Schuey would be being hailed as a tactical genius.

But I do think as an overall thing is overplayed. The players have been prepared to buy into Schumacher and run hard for him and play different systems - I suspect that’s more relevant than individual systems and selections.

I don’t think everything worked Saturday but the fact is maybe that was as much down to a lack of legs and energy as down to some tactical masterplan not working. I doubt there is a significant difference in tactical ability between Schuey’s team or Challinors. Both good managers with good coaching setups. I suspect that who performs on the day is more critical than setups. If Collins McAtee and Tutu all who played in same roles as they did against Birmingham played well different game. Fact is none of them did.

[irie Cee Bee]

I thought Tutu had a decent game and was our only threat. Stockport knew all about him and tried to get rid of him out of the game from the first ball he received. They almost succeeded, but despite his injury record, credit to him, he got up and caused them problems. They responded to this in the sceond half and had 2 players double teaming him.. one close marking, the other to cover if he got away. He therefore was less effective but was still our only threat. Collins and McAtee were for the most part dropping to the ground every time a player breathed on them, Collins in particular, and just could not hold up the ball. A bad day from them both.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Had a day off here yesterday after a very busy week and a saddening result. On the commute today I forced myself to listen to Ilesy's Last Word podcast and it's cheered me up a little.

Obviously there are problems with this squad and IMO Schumacher has had a bad week; it might sound easy now but I did say before the Bristol game that we needed changes to freshen up. I get why he made the choices he did, and I get why he gambled on the win when we were drawing at Bristol; sadly it didn't come off.

Anyway. Here's something you didn't often hear under Evatt: What cheered me up after the defeat was listening to the boss. (I note BWFCi feels the same way, which surely says something when me and he, not always aligned, feel the same way.) Schumacher explained why he made the changes he did - Baxter on Southwood's "data"; Forino over Forrester to counteract Wootton; Cogs and JOT after being rested midweek because wingback is a big shift; and Randall because Thomason was in the back three as a tactical counterpiece to Stockport's set-up.

It's all sensible stuff, and typical of a man who seems to embody the old saw about not getting too up after wins or too down after defeats. I'm intrigued to see what he can do, and hopeful it'll be good.

[BWFC_Insane]

I’m completely confident that Schumacher will have us competing in league one as far as and maybe beyond where whatever budget he has allows for next season.

Just hope there are no bumps in the road with new sporting director joining and delays to summer activity etc.

But he needs a summer and backing cos everything I’ve seen and heard thus far has been impressive.

[DJBlu]

Stockport today getting what they deserved last week.

Wrexham got a penalty and they had a lad sent off for a second yellow.

If only.

[TonyDomingos]

Stockport today getting what they deserved last week.

Wrexham got a penalty and they had a lad sent off for a second yellow.

If only.

Indeed. And Charlton lost, which is helpful(ish).

[DJBlu]

Stockport today getting what they deserved last week.

Wrexham got a penalty and they had a lad sent off for a second yellow.

If only.

Indeed. And Charlton lost, which is helpful(ish).

Aye,

With news of Reading having to be sold by the 4th Apr, if God forbid they are excluded from the League then Stockport would be worse off as they are the only team in the top 8 to have beaten them twice.

[Mar]

Stockport today getting what they deserved last week.

Wrexham got a penalty and they had a lad sent off for a second yellow.

If only.

Infuriating as the refs are once again inflating certain team's positions over others.

While it's nice to see Stockport reaping what they have sewn. The fact that we've been on the negative side of decisions for the past two games clearly has an impact in terms of game management.

There's no significant difference in my mind for the Muprhy pen that was given than the Collins foul in the box that wasn't.

Yet here we are.

[BWFC_Insane]

Stockport today getting what they deserved last week.

Wrexham got a penalty and they had a lad sent off for a second yellow.

If only.

Infuriating as the refs are once again inflating certain team's positions over others.

While it's nice to see Stockport reaping what they have sewn. The fact that we've been on the negative side of decisions for the past two games clearly has an impact in terms of game management.

There's no significant difference in my mind for the Muprhy pen that was given than the Collins foul in the box that wasn't.

Yet here we are.

Not saying it balances out but all teams face this stuff. We’ve had poor decisions in our winning run too. It’s not a conspiracy refs are just poor at this level.

[Worthy4England]

Stockport today getting what they deserved last week.

Wrexham got a penalty and they had a lad sent off for a second yellow.

If only.

Infuriating as the refs are once again inflating certain team's positions over others.

While it's nice to see Stockport reaping what they have sewn. The fact that we've been on the negative side of decisions for the past two games clearly has an impact in terms of game management.

There's no significant difference in my mind for the Muprhy pen that was given than the Collins foul in the box that wasn't.

Yet here we are.

Not saying it balances out but all teams face this stuff. We’ve had poor decisions in our winning run too. It’s not a conspiracy refs are just poor at this level.

Yeah, pretty sure when I looked at fouls for and against last season, we were pretty much mid-table...

[Mar]

Stockport today getting what they deserved last week.

Wrexham got a penalty and they had a lad sent off for a second yellow.

If only.

Infuriating as the refs are once again inflating certain team's positions over others.

While it's nice to see Stockport reaping what they have sewn. The fact that we've been on the negative side of decisions for the past two games clearly has an impact in terms of game management.

There's no significant difference in my mind for the Muprhy pen that was given than the Collins foul in the box that wasn't.

Yet here we are.

Not saying it balances out but all teams face this stuff. We’ve had poor decisions in our winning run too. It’s not a conspiracy refs are just poor at this level.

Yeah, pretty sure when I looked at fouls for and against last season, we were pretty much mid-table...

That doesn't take into consideration the ones that weren't given. Really hard to ensure fairness on that one.

The idea that things balance out over time is a farce. There's no way that we'll ever balance out Zendens double penalty touch in the cup final. All the more reason for technology to help get the right decision.

Same with Ehiogus handball in that final or Walters jumping into the keeper to help relegate us. That foul wasn't given either so that wouldn't show up in the fouls for or against column.

Maybe there's no way of getting a true balance but it certainly doesn't balance out.

A soft penalty against Crawley wouldn't balance out a cup final penalty.

[Worthy4England]

Stockport today getting what they deserved last week.

Wrexham got a penalty and they had a lad sent off for a second yellow.

If only.

Infuriating as the refs are once again inflating certain team's positions over others.

While it's nice to see Stockport reaping what they have sewn. The fact that we've been on the negative side of decisions for the past two games clearly has an impact in terms of game management.

There's no significant difference in my mind for the Muprhy pen that was given than the Collins foul in the box that wasn't.

Yet here we are.

Not saying it balances out but all teams face this stuff. We’ve had poor decisions in our winning run too. It’s not a conspiracy refs are just poor at this level.

Yeah, pretty sure when I looked at fouls for and against last season, we were pretty much mid-table...

That doesn't take into consideration the ones that weren't given. Really hard to ensure fairness on that one.

The idea that things balance out over time is a farce. There's no way that we'll ever balance out Zendens double penalty touch in the cup final. All the more reason for technology to help get the right decision.

Same with Ehiogus handball in that final or Walters jumping into the keeper to help relegate us. That foul wasn't given either so that wouldn't show up in the fouls for or against column.

Maybe there's no way of getting a true balance but it certainly doesn't balance out.

A soft penalty against Crawley wouldn't balance out a cup final penalty.

It is really tricky to do the ones that aren't given - for sure. I don't want every play like American Football, with 900 line refs all throwing little hankies onto the pitch. There are certainly "rub of the green" events, where one team feels hard done by. For sure. When you say things don't balance out, how did you rate our goal v United to win our last FA Cup? I'm not sure Zenden touched it twice - there were no complaints at all on-field and if we need 30 different camera angles to see it, then it's not the game I want to watch - I'd rather less not more, understanding fully that we'd get some toughies along the way.

I mean the point is, it's tricky to "prove" it doesn't balance out, and I suspect if you took any other team where you watched most games, you'd also come up with plenty - I'll stick with "I believe it probably balances out over time"

[BWFC_Insane]

Stockport today getting what they deserved last week.

Wrexham got a penalty and they had a lad sent off for a second yellow.

If only.

Infuriating as the refs are once again inflating certain team's positions over others.

While it's nice to see Stockport reaping what they have sewn. The fact that we've been on the negative side of decisions for the past two games clearly has an impact in terms of game management.

There's no significant difference in my mind for the Muprhy pen that was given than the Collins foul in the box that wasn't.

Yet here we are.

Not saying it balances out but all teams face this stuff. We’ve had poor decisions in our winning run too. It’s not a conspiracy refs are just poor at this level.

Yeah, pretty sure when I looked at fouls for and against last season, we were pretty much mid-table...

That doesn't take into consideration the ones that weren't given. Really hard to ensure fairness on that one.

The idea that things balance out over time is a farce. There's no way that we'll ever balance out Zendens double penalty touch in the cup final. All the more reason for technology to help get the right decision.

Same with Ehiogus handball in that final or Walters jumping into the keeper to help relegate us. That foul wasn't given either so that wouldn't show up in the fouls for or against column.

Maybe there's no way of getting a true balance but it certainly doesn't balance out.

A soft penalty against Crawley wouldn't balance out a cup final penalty.

It’s never going to balance out completely in the way you describe. There are I think relatively few times we are robbed by a refereeing display in the 4 decades I’ve watched us. Yes decisions sometimes go against us. The refs down here are poor. Yes a big game a poor decision can have longer term consequences and can’t ’balance out’ in the immediacy.

But we also only focus on decisions that go against us. Number of games we’ve played we have had and enjoyed rub of the green on decisions and these are forgotten by us instantly yet become part of our opponents grievances.

[Mar]

It is really tricky to do the ones that aren't given - for sure. I don't want every play like American Football, with 900 line refs all throwing little hankies onto the pitch. There are certainly "rub of the green" events, where one team feels hard done by. For sure.

Agreed. I'd not want a situation where we are constantly checking every decision that the referee makes. Certainly automation via offsides and handballs and stuff like this can simplify the checks. In reality, quick decisions getting made and the an appropriate level of support for those refereeing (permanent jobs, well trained assistants, limited amount of time on decision review, etc.).

When you say things don't balance out, how did you rate our goal v United to win our last FA Cup?

That's a foul. In 1958. If we're waiting 65 years for things to balance out then things clearly aren't balancing out as people have born and died in that time without any sort of levelling out.

I'm not sure Zenden touched it twice - there were no complaints at all on-field and if we need 30 different camera angles to see it, then it's not the game I want to watch - I'd rather less not more, understanding fully that we'd get some toughies along the way.

Cameras clearly indicate an alternate movement of the ball after his first foot kicked in and his other foot catching it. I understand the lack of complaints, but VAR being VAR nowadays would've been able to spot that and rule it out. That's progress in that area. There is lack of progress in terms of pausing for decision making, but that's just bad application of the technology and not the technology itself. We saw in the major international tournaments that decisions can be made quicker so for English football to struggle to replicate is a problem.

I mean the point is, it's tricky to "prove" it doesn't balance out, and I suspect if you took any other team where you watched most games, you'd also come up with plenty - I'll stick with "I believe it probably balances out over time"

Indeed. I'm not particularly advocating change in regular matches, but more when matches have significant risks associate with them that we step up and ensure fairness, such as finals.

I do find it quite fascinating the idea of things balancing out.

I've got a spreadsheet listing disallowed goals over the years and given 200 or so disallowed goals that i'm aware of, the number is in favour of the opposition benefitting from the goals being disallowed rather than Bolton benefitting. 106 Bolton goals disallowed compared to 94 opposition goals disallowed in favour of Bolton. That's a 12% difference over a 30 year period, and yes, i'm aware there will be a significant number i've missed, but in terms of the ones i've become aware of, that's the number. Make of that what you will in terms of how things balance out.

[Mar]

It’s never going to balance out completely in the way you describe. There are I think relatively few times we are robbed by a refereeing display in the 4 decades I’ve watched us. Yes decisions sometimes go against us. The refs down here are poor. Yes a big game a poor decision can have longer term consequences and can’t ’balance out’ in the immediacy.

I don't particularly want it to balance out completely. There's bound to be winners and losers, but we shouldn't have to see that in terms of big games.

But we also only focus on decisions that go against us. Number of games we’ve played we have had and enjoyed rub of the green on decisions and these are forgotten by us instantly yet become part of our opponents grievances.

The spreadsheet I mentioned on my previous post would indicate that i'm not just focusing on our grievances, but ones that make up a bigger picture of things balancing out, so it's not just only on particular decisions against us, but more as a holistic view of all to sort of answer the question, does it really balance out?

Stats would suggest no, but lets be honest, it doesn't really matter. Every team has a sob story to tell, we're no different. The stats just help to paint a picture to reflect upon.


For those actually interested:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

[Worthy4England]

It is really tricky to do the ones that aren't given - for sure. I don't want every play like American Football, with 900 line refs all throwing little hankies onto the pitch. There are certainly "rub of the green" events, where one team feels hard done by. For sure.

Agreed. I'd not want a situation where we are constantly checking every decision that the referee makes. Certainly automation via offsides and handballs and stuff like this can simplify the checks. In reality, quick decisions getting made and the an appropriate level of support for those refereeing (permanent jobs, well trained assistants, limited amount of time on decision review, etc.).

When you say things don't balance out, how did you rate our goal v United to win our last FA Cup?

That's a foul. In 1958. If we're waiting 65 years for things to balance out then things clearly aren't balancing out as people have born and died in that time without any sort of levelling out.

I'm not sure Zenden touched it twice - there were no complaints at all on-field and if we need 30 different camera angles to see it, then it's not the game I want to watch - I'd rather less not more, understanding fully that we'd get some toughies along the way.

Cameras clearly indicate an alternate movement of the ball after his first foot kicked in and his other foot catching it. I understand the lack of complaints, but VAR being VAR nowadays would've been able to spot that and rule it out. That's progress in that area. There is lack of progress in terms of pausing for decision making, but that's just bad application of the technology and not the technology itself. We saw in the major international tournaments that decisions can be made quicker so for English football to struggle to replicate is a problem.

I mean the point is, it's tricky to "prove" it doesn't balance out, and I suspect if you took any other team where you watched most games, you'd also come up with plenty - I'll stick with "I believe it probably balances out over time"

Indeed. I'm not particularly advocating change in regular matches, but more when matches have significant risks associate with them that we step up and ensure fairness, such as finals.

I do find it quite fascinating the idea of things balancing out.

I've got a spreadsheet listing disallowed goals over the years and given 200 or so disallowed goals that i'm aware of, the number is in favour of the opposition benefitting from the goals being disallowed rather than Bolton benefitting. 106 Bolton goals disallowed compared to 94 opposition goals disallowed in favour of Bolton. That's a 12% difference over a 30 year period, and yes, i'm aware there will be a significant number i've missed, but in terms of the ones i've become aware of, that's the number. Make of that what you will in terms of how things balance out.

I mean the goal v United was a long time ago, but it was still our most recent appearance in the FA Cup Final. Not much I can do about that other than hope!

I don't think VAR "spotting" that a player who slipped "kicked it twice" (and having watched some rather grainy you tubes, I'm not much the wiser), is progress - I think it's dumb, like the expectation defenders never use their hands to jump. Sometimes you need and should have judgement calls.

106 v 94 doesn't seem too far apart. But what does it actually tell us? There could be perfectly valid reasons for the difference. You could probably only do it justice if the reason for the disallowance was factually incorrect and in all but very clear cut cases, that's going to be subjective, even if you weighted it around number disallowed vs shots on target or some such. Dunno. I suspect most forums will have people who think they're more hard done by, than any other bugger.