Yorkshire Relish. Away to Barnsley Sat Apr 12th 3-0'clock.

[BWFC_Insane]

Here we go again. All our misery & woes are down to....

Evatt / Sheehan / Santos (how long into his long-awaited return did it take you to blame him by the way??.....
Santos / Evatt / Sheehan.....
Sheehan / Santos / Evatt.....

Markham

Evatt / Sheehan / Santos....
Santos / Evatt / Sheehan....

Sharon and the board
by the way, I like SS

Evatt / Sheehan / Santos....

Rinse & repeat. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over again....

We get it. We've heard it. You don't need to keep saying it

Not been wrong though have I? Seems like everyone now saying the same things.

If only the owners had a clue a bit earlier we’d not be in this position.

OK then. Well done you. Have a cigar....

I'd also say thats one way of looking at it, and I'd also say you've hardly been spot on either. More like a stopped clock being right twice a day......

Evatt was apparently such a poor manager who couldn't get a tune out of the players. You seem to think SS is the second coming and our saviour, yet he can't seem to get a tune out of them either (and in some cases I've not seen us worse). I know they are not his players, so he can't be held fully accountable, but the same old problems prevail despite the change in gaffer.

Santos is now back to be your target once again - after 60 minutes of football in about 3 months. He wasn't great yesterday, but no worse than the rest, and our defensive frailties have been present for all the time he's been out, not just yesterday, so yesterday is squarely not on him. Its notable that you specifically picked him out for criticism and ignored the others - despite 2 of the other defenders being pulled before half time.

Can we try to add some balance to the recruitment & Markham. As we've said before, it's easy to focus on the "failures" whilst conveniently ignoring the successes - and even you can find plenty of successes if you allow yourself to. I know SS has to work with what Markham and the team have left him, but as I've said before, I can't think of too many signings that we as fans weren't behind at the time.....

As has been pointed out previously, whether you like the owners or not, they pulled us out of the abyss and the alternatives at the time - if we even still had a club to support - were the likes of Bassini et al, who I hardly think would have done a better job. They have had to rebuild the whole club from the bottom and have provided financial backing beyond any of widest dreams given where we were. Its maybe true they persevered with IE too long, but this was done deliberately and with the right intentions - hindsight tells us it might have been the wrong decision, but they won't be the first or last owners to make a wrong decision like this.

And on Sheehan - we've done this to death. He is NOT a bad or a soft player. Not one bit. At all. We are not making the most of him or our system prevents him being his best, but he's rated pretty damn well within the club, the league and the international setup - plenty of people in the game recognise his qualities and how good a player he is.

Things are far from good at the club, and whilst we've made good progress we still have so much more to do. I'm as disappointed/frustrated/angry/saddened as the rest of the fans, but I don't feel the need to point fingers and look for easy blame all the time. What's the point? I had the severe displeasure of being in the middle of the away end yesterday. The game was a shambles, the performance was non-existent, but I remain a supporter of our club. Some of the vitriol/anger/hatred/disgust that was directed at the players, especially at the end when they trudged down the tunnel was truly abhorrent. I know if you pay your money you are more than entitled to your opinion, but it was horrible to hear to be honest. As someone pointed out on here recently, I think a large minority of our fans need to look up the definition of "support"......

The away crowds on games like yesterday and Wigan are not good places to be. I said during Wigan that I didn’t go as the crowd just becomes unpleasant.

However, these players are paid to play for Bolton wanderers. They’ve all let the club down. Not one game or so but on a consistent basis. If you want to play for Bolton you have to come and graft and run your absolute tits off. These players do that once or twice then produce garbage where they are half interested. I could live with that when our team consisted of players who a) we knew were rubbish and b) they knew it too. That era we endured some absolutely unmitigated garbage but Phil Neal knew the players were basic and the players on the whole knew what they were. They tried.

What I cannot under any circumstances deem acceptable is lower league players being signed to play for Bolton wanderers by a manager saying they are world beaters and the players behaving as though they are doing us favour being here. Then when it gets a bit tough failing to show up and then crying the big ‘oh the fans are mean to us’. It’s a big club and the fact is as was pointed out last night most of these players don’t have the mentality to cope with it. At the very least they could apologize. Show some humility. They don’t do that.

Also don’t know what you’re on about with Santos I don’t think I’ve mentioned him beyond ‘he’s going’. It didn’t work bringing him back yesterday but neither did owt else.

We’ve got a good manager who is talking about shaking things up and I’m sure he knows what is needed. He needs backing to sort this out. The owners have to be held responsible for the mess they’ve allowed to happen.

Not sure what you want someone to say? Oh it’s great we are still in league one? People are angry and fed up and justifiably so. It’s no down to the club to deliver a team we can be proud of. It’s not exactly beyond the realm of possibility to do so. We have the manager and DoF in place. That’s a good start.

[Prufrock]

The melodrama is what's embarrassing. Owners putting in a million a month to keep a club that nearly went bust running. Doing their best. Obviously plenty of mistakes and performances on the pitch haven't been good enough. But it's competition. Everyone else is trying to do the same thing.

Accountability and apologies and anger (beyond the 90)? Grow up.

[Worthy4England]

The melodrama is what's embarrassing. Owners putting in a million a month to keep a club that nearly went bust running. Doing their best. Obviously plenty of mistakes and performances on the pitch haven't been good enough. But it's competition. Everyone else is trying to do the same thing.

Accountability and apologies and anger (beyond the 90)? Grow up.

Yup. Not sure how we're going to "hold the owners responsible." Bedsheets? Kidnapping the family rabbit? Flogging/stocks? Bit of loud tutting?

[BWFC_Insane]

The melodrama is what's embarrassing. Owners putting in a million a month to keep a club that nearly went bust running. Doing their best. Obviously plenty of mistakes and performances on the pitch haven't been good enough. But it's competition. Everyone else is trying to do the same thing.

Accountability and apologies and anger (beyond the 90)? Grow up.

Why shouldn’t fans be fed up with the players? It’s football. It’s happened since forever. If you are as limp and embarrassing as our players are at many clubs you will get a lot more anger and vitriol than these lot get here.

They shouldn’t be abused but they should also behave like what they are. Lower league journeymen lucky to be at a big club and act accordingly.

[Harry Genshaw]

The melodrama is what's embarrassing. Owners putting in a million a month to keep a club that nearly went bust running. Doing their best. Obviously plenty of mistakes and performances on the pitch haven't been good enough. But it's competition. Everyone else is trying to do the same thing.

Accountability and apologies and anger (beyond the 90)? Grow up.

Yup. Not sure how we're going to "hold the owners responsible." Bedsheets? Kidnapping the family rabbit? Flogging/stocks? Bit of loud tutting?

Steady on!

[Mar]

My worry re Schumacher is if he can see how lightweight our midfield/team are, how come Matete hasn't been able to get a start?

My money is on Schuey knowing how Matete and Lolos play and having gotten rid of them at a previous club they're probably not overly in consideration for the future squad build he's got in mind.

[Harry Genshaw]

My worry re Schumacher is if he can see how lightweight our midfield/team are, how come Matete hasn't been able to get a start?

My money is on Schuey knowing how Matete and Lolos play and having gotten rid of them at a previous club they're probably not overly in consideration for the future squad build he's got in mind.

It does look that way doesn't it? I might be remembering this wrong, but neither have had a start during this run of games where Sheehan, GT and McAtee have all been in, at best, erratic form.

[BWFC_Insane]

Here is my Monday morning thesis. Marc Iles has written that this is the most expensive Bolton Wanderers side ever assembled at this level. He also describes it as ‘flaky’.

And that I think sums it up. My view is this, that under Evatt this group were cosseted, pampered and over protected.

The players are mentally and physically weak. There is no other description for it. If they had anything about them, literally anything the last minute winner at Wigan would have been a trigger for a run in where they’d be determined to make it count. But these are so far from that it’s unreal.

I don’t think any player should face abuse. It’s ridiculous. But they should be told. And should be able to be around Bolton fans to be told in a calm way what is wrong and why the fans feel how they do. Not with abuse but with simple and clear statements. They should be able to take that - past generations of players had to continually. But this lot all lack any resilience whatsoever.

A good example but by no means an isolated one. We spent nearly a million quid on McAtee. He comes with his socks rolled down acting the big I am. Yet the lad cannot even do the very basics of the striker role. Can’t even jump for a header or hold it. As McGinlay says these are the basics. If he has anything about him at all he’d spend all summer working with a striking coach to learn how to do what he’s being paid for. I’m sure Super John would coach him if asked.

But it goes way beyond just that, years we’ve had some of these and not one has improved and dealt with their failings. Not one. Every single player has behaved like they are it and have made it. It speaks to a lack of resilience. Why should highly paid footballers be told they are amazing when it’s clear they are overrated and lack any mental fortitude?

Schuey doesn’t seem to be keen on protecting them he’s already called them out and rightly so. But we’ve had years of them failing to improve or change. They won’t start now.

[boltonboris]

A real disaster really. Defended like absolute idiots and were truly horrible even though we created 4-5 incredibly good opportunities.

The goals we conceded were amateurish as best. Not tackling, backing off, getting twisted inside out and turning backs, the last one.. Jeez the guys running away from goal and we let him turn and pick out a man. Just incredible really.

Then the injuries... Quite happy to see the back of many of these players, but to lose them with little to no back-up, is worrying.

Schumacher won't stand for any more of that and rightly so. I think a few players condemned themselves to the bottom of League One for next season with that performance. Because that's where a lot of them will end up.

A lack of respect from the players and I know it sounds like an overreaction, but it's true. They lack respect for the manager, the fans, the club and eachother.

[boltonboris]

I also think it’s unfair to expect Santos to be out for 4 months or whatever it’s been and come straight back into the starting line up firing, fit and ready.

Unless we hold other players to the same expectation, which we probably wouldn’t.

[Worthy4England]

I want to clear a good few out, but I think it'll take time. Think Gun said there's probably 4 free slots. Perm any other 13 for the exit door, is a pretty chunky ask in one window.

I think Schumacher also acknowledged that he might have got the set-up wrong, hence the changes on 40 minutes (kudos for doing that), but we're already 2 down at that point. 62 goals against, is just awful.

Agree re: Santos.

We clearly need some leaders on the pitch - have done for a while for me. You don't tend to need them as much when you're 2-0 up and the last few years we've won more than we've lost, but you miss them when you're 2-0 down and up against it.

I would like - cue stuck record - a proper defensive midfielder - maybe two. A CD with experience and on pitch organisational skills and to clarify the mess that is "up front" with players given random "numbers" that lets be honest, no fcuker can actually attach to a player with much accuracy. We need more simplicity and less bullshit.

[BWFC_Insane]

I also think it’s unfair to expect Santos to be out for 4 months or whatever it’s been and come straight back into the starting line up firing, fit and ready.

Unless we hold other players to the same expectation, which we probably wouldn’t.

Not sure Santos was particularly at fault - as you say big ask having not played for ages. It just didn’t work bringing him back. Defensively we were miles off it.

[boltonboris]

I also think it’s unfair to expect Santos to be out for 4 months or whatever it’s been and come straight back into the starting line up firing, fit and ready.

Unless we hold other players to the same expectation, which we probably wouldn’t.

Not sure Santos was particularly at fault - as you say big ask having not played for ages. It just didn’t work bringing him back. Defensively we were miles off it.

It wasn’t just defensively. It was each third. Everyone to a man was too passive, too hesitant and frankly, too weak

[BWFC_Insane]

I also think it’s unfair to expect Santos to be out for 4 months or whatever it’s been and come straight back into the starting line up firing, fit and ready.

Unless we hold other players to the same expectation, which we probably wouldn’t.

Not sure Santos was particularly at fault - as you say big ask having not played for ages. It just didn’t work bringing him back. Defensively we were miles off it.

It wasn’t just defensively. It was each third. Everyone to a man was too passive, too hesitant and frankly, too weak

Yep but I’m in the you defend as an 11 camp. It’s a critique of the whole team. From front to back we were as you say weak.

[dave the minion]

Genuine question:

- People are calling for wholesale change with double-digit numbers of players needing replacing.

- People are also calling for a serious assault on the automatics next year (sounds like our first game of next season is already a "must win"!!)


Whilst I readily accept something needs to change, does anyone realistically think that if we do make major changes to the team & squad in the summer they will be ready to push for promotion in their very first season?

Will people accept the excuse or explanation that the "new" team needs a couple of seasons to bed in before making a serious push? For the sake of argument, if we were able - financially and logistically - to make, say, 10 changes to the team, how long will it take the fans to turn on the new guys and the management team (and no doubt the board, and the cleaners, and the hotel bar staff et al) if they are are struggling to gel & adapt to the new setup etc and not winning every game?

Feels like there is a risk that whatever happens in the summer gives SS and the team an issue. Change too many (which is what people are clamouring for) and they may take time to get going. Change too few - perhaps to preserve the core of the team - and they will be accused of not having the werewithal to do what was necessary.
In a simple way, I guess the only way to avoid the potential storm is for whatever happens over the summer to work from day 1.....

[jimbo]

Genuine question:

- People are calling for wholesale change with double-digit numbers of players needing replacing.

- People are also calling for a serious assault on the automatics next year (sounds like our first game of next season is already a "must win"!!)


Whilst I readily accept something needs to change, does anyone realistically think that if we do make major changes to the team & squad in the summer they will be ready to push for promotion in their very first season?

Will people accept the excuse or explanation that the "new" team needs a couple of seasons to bed in before making a serious push? For the sake of argument, if we were able - financially and logistically - to make, say, 10 changes to the team, how long will it take the fans to turn on the new guys and the management team (and no doubt the board, and the cleaners, and the hotel bar staff et al) if they are are struggling to gel & adapt to the new setup etc and not winning every game?

Feels like there is a risk that whatever happens in the summer gives SS and the team an issue. Change too many (which is what people are clamouring for) and they may take time to get going. Change too few - perhaps to preserve the core of the team - and they will be accused of not having the werewithal to do what was necessary.
In a simple way, I guess the only way to avoid the potential storm is for whatever happens over the summer to work from day 1.....

Yeah I think 10+ changes is too much, and unrealistic. It’ll be a really tough job to move people on as we’ve ended up with some real rubbish that we’ve overpaid for and stuck on long contracts. I think it’ll be a take what you can get for some players, while maybe having to keep some around that we’re less enamoured with.

We’ve got Lolos, CMG, Randall, Mcatee and Collins who are all probably best occupying the same space on the pitch behind a main striker, while we’ve only got Sheehan, Morley and Thomason fit in midfield, and no fit strikers. That’s incredibly wasteful and poor planning.

It needs a rebalance. 3 of those need to leave and be replaced by 2 proper strikers and a defensive midfielder. I’d also be open to selling Thomason or Sheehan and replacing them with another solid midfielder.

We need to find wingers who create. I like Tutu, but he’s played quite a lot now and doesn’t really have many goals or assists. We need players in those areas to contribute more.

How we make the changes we need on the back of £12m losses I’ve no idea.

[The_Gun]

Teams at this level often have a large amount of turnover in the summer due to there being fewer long contracts handed out. Birmingham, Stockport and Wrexham all brought in plenty last summer. Thus, I don’t think bringing a lot of new players in would be a barrier to doing well next season, it just might not be particularly easy to execute.

There are definitely some players that Schuey/our fans would like to get rid of who we won’t be able to move on. We’ll have to hope that the likes of Randall, Schön, Lolos etc really knuckle down during the offseason and come back improved.

Randall specifically I can’t see being sold, so unless a team want to take him on loan and pay his wages, we need to get more out of him. If I were SS I’d ensure that he’s put on a rigorous strength training program to better equip him for thriving in L1.

[BWFC_Insane]

Genuine question:

- People are calling for wholesale change with double-digit numbers of players needing replacing.

- People are also calling for a serious assault on the automatics next year (sounds like our first game of next season is already a "must win"!!)


Whilst I readily accept something needs to change, does anyone realistically think that if we do make major changes to the team & squad in the summer they will be ready to push for promotion in their very first season?

Will people accept the excuse or explanation that the "new" team needs a couple of seasons to bed in before making a serious push? For the sake of argument, if we were able - financially and logistically - to make, say, 10 changes to the team, how long will it take the fans to turn on the new guys and the management team (and no doubt the board, and the cleaners, and the hotel bar staff et al) if they are are struggling to gel & adapt to the new setup etc and not winning every game?

Feels like there is a risk that whatever happens in the summer gives SS and the team an issue. Change too many (which is what people are clamouring for) and they may take time to get going. Change too few - perhaps to preserve the core of the team - and they will be accused of not having the werewithal to do what was necessary.
In a simple way, I guess the only way to avoid the potential storm is for whatever happens over the summer to work from day 1.....

In a summer Allardyce was forced to sell Fish, Jensen, Gudjohnsen, lost Johansen, Johnstone and Ritchie.

That’s 6 players and some of the best we had. He had to beg borrow and steal to replace them without any money.

We still went up.

I think the thing is that I know cold light of day we aren’t going to be able to move 13 players on. We will have to I think find a way to get a couple out to leave us with 6 or 7 spots and that’s hopefully going to be 6 or 7 that make the difference.

It’s frustrating that we are in this position but that is where we ultimately are.

[TANGODANCER]

Nothing about that game was worth remembering, because our faults were too obvious to need analysing. We're just picking scabs off old sores, so can it and move on. Remember, we had a similar situation with Stoke, losing 5-0, then hit back on the return and reversed the scores. It's football in all it complexities, and thus will ever be.

"Ride boldly ride", the Shade replied, "if you seek El Dorado"

Get Riding

[Worthy4England]

Genuine question:

- People are calling for wholesale change with double-digit numbers of players needing replacing.

- People are also calling for a serious assault on the automatics next year (sounds like our first game of next season is already a "must win"!!)


Whilst I readily accept something needs to change, does anyone realistically think that if we do make major changes to the team & squad in the summer they will be ready to push for promotion in their very first season?

Will people accept the excuse or explanation that the "new" team needs a couple of seasons to bed in before making a serious push? For the sake of argument, if we were able - financially and logistically - to make, say, 10 changes to the team, how long will it take the fans to turn on the new guys and the management team (and no doubt the board, and the cleaners, and the hotel bar staff et al) if they are are struggling to gel & adapt to the new setup etc and not winning every game?

Feels like there is a risk that whatever happens in the summer gives SS and the team an issue. Change too many (which is what people are clamouring for) and they may take time to get going. Change too few - perhaps to preserve the core of the team - and they will be accused of not having the werewithal to do what was necessary.
In a simple way, I guess the only way to avoid the potential storm is for whatever happens over the summer to work from day 1.....

I think we need at least 4 very decent signings, if that helps.

But I think there's a fairly long list of people we actually need to work out WTF we're going to do with them and how they'd operate alongside the 4.

Whatever has happened this season, the main criticism I have is how they all fit together to form a team. If new signings get the best out of people like CMG, Dan, McAtee, Collins, Randall etc. etc. then we will likely not need (or want) to clear the lot out, which as you say takes time.

If the players we have, are anywhere near as good as some bill them (some folks had maybe 6/7 Champo starters in this lot), they should be able to adapt. If not, then we have a longer term problem - that'll fester amongst the "Told you so's." Sorta just a fact of life.