England - Sweden

CrazyHorse · Post by **CrazyHorse** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:35 pm

Thing is though, people assume we've got some divine right to win the trophy! Let's not forget that the other 31 teams in the finals are also some of the best in the world and that they'll also have lucky games and unlucky games, good games and bad games the same as England.

If we get knocked out next round (or whenever) then that's because we weren't good enough. Simple as.

I can't stress this enough: I want us to win as much as anyone but please let's be positive. I promise here and now everyone has my permission to slag Sven, the team, the FA, the tactics and whatever off as much as you like when we get knocked out.
Until then let's get behind the team!

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:39 pm

Worst part of last night for me was seeing players who, in the Premiership, Bolton's defenders handle well enough, being made to look like Pele by our national cream-of-the-crop "defence". I don't want to rant too much (done enough of that already in this thread), but our last line is woeful right now. Ferdinand shouldn't even be in there IMO, because he's terrified of having the ball. He never takes a man on, treats the ball like a hot cinder, passes backwards far too often and his passing in general is woeful: And Erikson sees his as his "Beckenbaur" What a laugh. Franz was one of the most skilful passers in the game and was never fazed by men running at him. Ferdinand "out".

If Beckham has to stay, then get Hargreaves in at right back (can he be worse than Carragher? and he at least tackles and tries to do something with the ball ) and use Lennon on the wing in front of him. Last night we had six yellow shirts in our box and ten red ones and they still scored. Beckham couldn't handle the header, Crouch was stranded behind him and where was Ferdinand? The whole lot of them should be thinking "forward" instead of Crouch and Rooney defending then booting the ball straight back to the opposition. Lennon and Walcott are both capable of taking men on and Gerard defends better than Lampard when he needs to. Get yourself sorted Sven. Anybody on this forum could pick a better side.

Bruce Rioja · Post by **Bruce Rioja** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:42 pm

CrazyHorse wrote:Thing is though, people assume we've got some divine right to win the trophy!

I'm not sure that's the case though, Hoss. It's just that when you consider the individual merits of the current group of players, are people not within their rights to criticise when they see them play like a bunch of amateurs?

CrazyHorse · Post by **CrazyHorse** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:46 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:Get yourself sorted Sven. Anybody on this forum could pick a better side.

Agree with that. His substitutions were ok again last night though IMO.

Crouch > Davies · Post by **Crouch > Davies** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:51 pm

I'm not going to dive straight into the negativity pit, but there is a lot of work to be done on the training ground. Why on Earth did someone as distinctly average as Sweden unsettle one of the most composed central defensive pairings on the planet? Why did Marcus Allback cause John Terry so much hassle? How did Johan Elmander manage to ruffle Rio's feathers? These are questions that MUST be answered before the Ecuador game - they are much more physical than Sweden and they will rely on set pieces too.

What is worrying me more is Paul Robinson. He looks shaky and he isn't communicating with his two defenders. That second goal last night being the prime example. Very concerning.

But we still have more than enough ability to beat Ecuador.

CrazyHorse · Post by **CrazyHorse** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:59 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
CrazyHorse wrote:Thing is though, people assume we've got some divine right to win the trophy!
I'm not sure that's the case though, Hoss. It's just that when you consider the individual merits of the current group of players, are people not within their rights to criticise when they see them play like a bunch of amateurs?

Well yes, of course they're within their rights to criticise when they see them play like a bunch of amateurs. However because the same critisims get spewed out no matter how we play it kind of loses it's edge somewhat.

Last nights game (draw): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The T&T game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The Paraguay game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The Jamaica game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The Hungary game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.

Shall I go back further in history or does this stress my point?

Bruce Rioja · Post by **Bruce Rioja** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:04 pm

No, you'll need to go back further than that I'm afraid, much further.

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:04 pm

CrazyHorse wrote: Last nights game (draw): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The T&T game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The Paraguay game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The Jamaica game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The Hungary game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.

Shall I go back further in history or does this stress my point?

Take the point with the wins Hoss. Doubt if any of them had much to do with Erikson though.

fanz · Post by **fanz** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:18 pm

CrazyHorse wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:
CrazyHorse wrote:Thing is though, people assume we've got some divine right to win the trophy!
I'm not sure that's the case though, Hoss. It's just that when you consider the individual merits of the current group of players, are people not within their rights to criticise when they see them play like a bunch of amateurs?
Well yes, of course they're within their rights to criticise when they see them play like a bunch of amateurs. However because the same critisims get spewed out no matter how we play it kind of loses it's edge somewhat.

Last nights game (draw): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The T&T game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The Paraguay game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The Jamaica game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The Hungary game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.

Shall I go back further in history or does this stress my point?

Yes go back to Brazil at the last world cup when he tried sitting on a lead against one of the best attacking forces in the world or more recently against Portugal in the Euro's when he again tried sitting on a lead and we paid the ultimate price. He will never understand that England cannot defend, it doesn't matter who is playing all we can do and what we should concentrate on is attacking teams and finishing them off. When it matters he bottles it just as England have done for the last 40 years.

He is also playing pathetic football, much like our own manager, Hoof to crouch and when that doesn't work there is no plan b. Beckham crossing from his own half way line?? Every one of his free kicks was appalling last night, he shouldn't be in the squad let alone the team.

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:20 pm

Yeah you're right his free-kick against Paraguay which caused all kinds of chaos and ended up in the back the Parguay net was just bobbins...

Send him round to me I'll sort him out.

fanz · Post by **fanz** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:26 pm

Gertie wrote:Yeah you're right his free-kick against Paraguay which caused all kinds of chaos and ended up in the back the Parguay net was just bobbins...

Send him round to me I'll sort him out.

I'm talking about last night, Beckham never does it in the big tournaments, one of the most overated players to have ever played the game IMO. It's no coincidence Madrid haven't won anything since he arrived.

No pace, can't get past a defender but he's a winger? If he looked like ted Mcminn or Rick Holden he would have never kicked a ball for england

Crouch > Davies · Post by **Crouch > Davies** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:29 pm

I would blame Real's slump more on them not replacing Makelele as opposed to signing Beckham....

CrazyHorse · Post by **CrazyHorse** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:33 pm

fanz wrote:
CrazyHorse wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:
CrazyHorse wrote:Thing is though, people assume we've got some divine right to win the trophy!
I'm not sure that's the case though, Hoss. It's just that when you consider the individual merits of the current group of players, are people not within their rights to criticise when they see them play like a bunch of amateurs?
Well yes, of course they're within their rights to criticise when they see them play like a bunch of amateurs. However because the same critisims get spewed out no matter how we play it kind of loses it's edge somewhat.

Last nights game (draw): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The T&T game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The Paraguay game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The Jamaica game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.
The Hungary game (win): we did this wrong, we did that wrong, Sven doesn't know what he's doing.

Shall I go back further in history or does this stress my point?
Yes go back to Brazil at the last world cup when he tried sitting on a lead against one of the best attacking forces in the world or more recently against Portugal in the Euro's when he again tried sitting on a lead and we paid the ultimate price. He will never understand that England cannot defend, it doesn't matter who is playing all we can do and what we should concentrate on is attacking teams and finishing them off. When it matters he bottles it just as England have done for the last 40 years.

He is also playing pathetic football, much like our own manager, Hoof to crouch and when that doesn't work there is no plan b. Beckham crossing from his own half way line?? Every one of his free kicks was appalling last night, he shouldn't be in the squad let alone the team.

<sighs>
Now this looks like I'm trying to defend Sven which I'm not. But the guy is surely doing something right - hasn't he got the best win ratio of any England manager ever?

Lets pick up this argument two years from now when McClaren had been sacked for failing to qualify us for the Euro 2008 finals. I wonder how the doom and gloom brigade will be reacting then?

What do Sven and the boys have to do to get a positive comment?

keveh · Post by **keveh** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:39 pm

CrazyHorse wrote:What do Sven and the boys have to do to get a positive comment?

Play well

Give us confidence that we can beat the better teams in the competition. If they can give us that confidence, we can fully get behind them.

CrazyHorse · Post by **CrazyHorse** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:44 pm

keveh wrote:
CrazyHorse wrote:What do Sven and the boys have to do to get a positive comment?
Play well

Give us confidence that we can beat the better teams in the competition. If they can give us that confidence, we can fully get behind them.

Good answer!

Like I said earlier, if we don't win it it's because we're not good enough. But then again we are winning games so what's the problem?

Surely as Bolton fans we can get on board with the "a shite three points is better than a sexy loss" mentality? I know I can.

Bench · Post by **Bench** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:52 pm

Excellent report Wee Mouldy Fella.

Time to firmly eat my words.

In the first half Hargreaves was, quite simply, brilliant. He broke up the play well, his challenges were well timed and his one touch passing was quite impressive. He was one of our best performers in the first 45-minutes and my choice for MOTM. Unfortunately, this masterly defensive display did little to improve Lumpylards game.

He runs about a lot and gets forward for shots at distance, but thats about it for Frank. His tracking back, tackling and closing down is rather poor in actual fact, and playing him alongside Owen only highlighted this fact. Get rid Sven. My vote (and in a complete turn around I admit) would be to play Hargreaves and Gerrard in midfield. Most people don't seem to realise that, at the age of 28, this is Lampards first international tournament. Food for thought?

Next.....the second of the Cole brothers. Joe had a superb game. He gave us a remarkable goal (intended? Jury's out...) and set up the second with a great cross. BUT, why the hell does he always always always cut infield just as young Ashley pelts past him down the wing? This is one of the main strengths of Ashley Cole at full-back. A strength that is being completed negated by Joe's apparent inability to pass the ball to him when he overlaps. Something to improve upon.

What the feck does Sven say to the lads at half time? At the break we were looking comfortable, strong, co-ordinated. Second half? A shambles. FACT. Apparently.

Finally....the case of the missing striker. Sven's GRAND PLAN is quickly being undone at the seams, it would....er....seem. In my view Owen was always a risk - he had played barely more than 6 hours of Premiership football all season. Rooney - talismanic and our brightest prospect maybe, but still a big risk considering his injury. No-one could have anticipated this remarkable recovery and, lets not forget, he probably isn't 100% even now. Personally, I think Peter Crouch should have been Sven's 'wild card'. Hardly prolific for Liverpool, he should have been our fringe player.

However, thanks to Sven's selection of Walcott (who looks very good in the Arsenal Reserves

), we now only have Rooney and Crouch to rely on as our mainstay strike force. Darren Bent? Jermaine Defoe? Surely the selection of one of these in lieu of Jenas would have been preferable? Or even in perhaps of a not fit Michael Owen?

Taking only four strikers (two unproven and two injured/unfit) will, in my opinion, seriously damage any chance (however slim) of reaching the Quarter / Semi Finals.

Crouch > Davies · Post by **Crouch > Davies** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:13 pm

Bench wrote: Darren Bent? Jermaine Defoe? Surely the selection of one of these in lieu of Jenas would have been preferable? Or even in perhaps of a not fit Michael Owen?

Taking only four strikers (two unproven and two injured/unfit) will, in my opinion, seriously damage any chance (however slim) of reaching the Quarter / Semi Finals.

I'm with you on this Bench.

I have no problem with selecting an unfit Owen and a (once) doubtful Rooney alongside Walcott but he has taken too much of a gamble on them not being injured and it's backfired.

As for Hargreaves, I'm made up for him. I've defended him to the hilt on TW and last night proved my point - the lad is a useful midfielder. He set the platform for Lumplard to do his thing and he didn't do it, which is why I think it's time for Sven to show some grapefruits and change the midfield.

Soldier_Of_The_White_Army · Post by **Soldier_Of_The_White_Army** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:58 pm

Bench wrote:Next.....the second of the Cole brothers. Joe had a superb game. He gave us a remarkable goal (intended? Jury's out...)

Sorry, I laughed out loud there Bench! If that wasn't indended, then it was the wierdest atempted cross I had ever witnessed

Bench · Post by **Bench** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:19 pm

Soldier_Of_The_White_Army wrote:
Bench wrote:Next.....the second of the Cole brothers. Joe had a superb game. He gave us a remarkable goal (intended? Jury's out...)
Sorry, I laughed out loud there Bench! If that wasn't indended, then it was the wierdest atempted cross I had ever witnessed

I only say that because he was way-out from the box, there was no apparent scoring opportunity, the 'keeper wasn't off his line (well, hardly) and Joe didn't so much as look at the goal.

Bench (England sceptic)

communistworkethic · Post by **communistworkethic** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:24 pm

Come on Crazy, with the players at your disposal you could put a team out that would perform as well as Ericson has managed. In that time, how often have England looked like world-beaters? The last time we looked class was in Germany when we won 5-1 and we even had emile heskey playing then, yet he's taken us backwards. Beating numpties is easy, beating them well and beating good teams is another matter.

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