Here we go again

[David Lee's Hair]

I forgot how much of a bore it is reading cases set out like that its been a long time since I did town and country planning law and environmental law modules at uni!!

Ok so there are cases, but there are a fairly large number of muslims in the UK, so there are always going to be some bad apples.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I forgot how much of a bore it is reading cases set out like that its been a long time since I did town and country planning law and environmental law modules at uni!!

Ok so there are cases, but there are a fairly large number of muslims in the UK, so there are always going to be some bad apples.

Tell me about it!

That's why I gave the BBC link for the first one. Though for the second one, the sinister pressurising influence of the brothers didn't come across in the news reports.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

The bottom of this article hints at what I am talking about with regards to the brothers in the hijab case.

http://chromatism.net/current/scream.htm

[David Lee's Hair]

I'll be honest it still doesn't make me think it is more that a small minority of all muslims.

If Jews where running around blowing up people in this country then would your view of them be different? Or if Roman Catholics suddenly started rashing planes into buildings?

They'd still be extremists and not represent the whole body of the religion.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Well, those are just two examples. Do you want more?

All I am saying is that somehow I have been left with the impression that Islam is an unusually unpleasant religion. Perhaps this is grossly unfair, and my experience is not representative of the religion as a whole at all, but my experience is what it is!

[Mar]

Ok so there are cases, but there are a fairly large number of muslims in the UK, so there are always going to be some bad apples.

Just like there will be in every religious group and its not as if you can blame the holy book as its all about interpretation. I remember Ezekial 25:17 off of Pulp Fiction, some angry words from a supposedly 'good' book. It's all about the interpretation.

[thebish]

Whereas I don't think I've ever seen a newsreport about any crime or nastiness committed by any person who does not belong to a World Faith group.... errr.....

or rather.. most crimes are commited by people who profess no faith - does this mean that I should be naturally suspicious of people who don't belong to a faith group...

errrr.... no - but that's what happens when your logic goes bonkers...

No need to try and be clever. It doesn't suit you.

possibly not - but my mum says I'll grow into it... one day..

I was still a bit stuck on your erudite argument that you wouldn't buy/lick an American stamp with arabic writing on it because of some cases you linked where some Muslims had done bad things....

as for being clever - stick at it - suits you, sir, oooofff, suits you.....

many bad things have been done over the centuries in the name of our Queen - but fortunately you don't have to lick our stamps anymore - which is a jolly good thing...

[mofgimmers]

Of course some muslims preach ill. Then again, the old Ku Lux Klan did everything in the name of Christianity didn't they? Or maybe the Pope... and that lovely banning of contraception which has helped the old Aids things along quite a bit...

..Of course, I'm being flippant, but to single out Islam is almost Daily Mail laughable.

Of course, I've met Crayons, and I can safely say that he isn't a racist, but I'll fogive those reading his posts through their fingers.

[Raven]

Insane Apache is spot on, all the traditions at Christmas have nowt to do with Christianity, they just hijacked old Pagan rituals to try and remove them. There are still some Christian groups that do not celebrate Christmas is its really a Pagan festival (I have lots on this at work, can post them if you really want).

Evidence also proves that its at the wrong time of the year

Easters not Christian either

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I was still a bit stuck on your erudite argument that you wouldn't buy/lick an American stamp with arabic writing on it because of some cases you linked where some Muslims had done bad things....

Well why didn't you ask me about that then rather than some over-the-top fake 'errrr's, because you felt confident my logic was flawed?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Of course some muslims preach ill. Then again, the old Ku Lux Klan did everything in the name of Christianity didn't they? Or maybe the Pope... and that lovely banning of contraception which has helped the old Aids things along quite a bit...

..Of course, I'm being flippant, but to single out Islam is almost Daily Mail laughable.

Of course, I've met Crayons, and I can safely say that he isn't a racist, but I'll fogive those reading his posts through their fingers.

I appreciate the character reference.

You're absolutely correct - I am emphatically not racist. All of the things you have mentioned from other religions are perfectly valid, and they have perhaps all made some contribution to my being atheist.

But I am telling you that my personal experience is that Islam is a religion that I have found to be unpleasant more times that other religions. That is my honest personal experience. I even accept that my personal experience is far too limited for me to announce to the world that I have any useful conclusions about religion.

But I do object to the content of my own empirical observations being termed 'laughable'.

[thebish]

Insane Apache is spot on, all the traditions at Christmas have nowt to do with Christianity, they just hijacked old Pagan rituals to try and remove them. There are still some Christian groups that do not celebrate Christmas is its really a Pagan festival (I have lots on this at work, can post them if you really want).

Evidence also proves that its at the wrong time of the year

Easters not Christian either

Mmmm.. are you sure?? St Nicholas, for instance, was a Christian Bishop - and legends of his life gave rise to Santa Claus.. - though he was usually dressed in green before Haddon Sundblom re-dressed him in a red, fur-trimmed suit for the famous Coca-cola ads) Santa is not Pagan - he's a Dutch/American transmogriphication of St Nicholas...

but that's a detail...

(the other christmas tradition that was not borrowed is the Nativity - obviously - that's the invention of St Francis)

The Pagan rituals are around the burning of the yule log - which is a quiet reflective ceremony - none of the gluttony and excess has any proper pagan roots... the closest we get to that is the chocolate log - but I wouldn't describe that as a particularly important christmas tradition - would you?

I presume you mean the tree by "all the traditions" - and there is a germ of a truth in there - but not so much to write home about... Druids brought sprigs of evergreen holly into the house to signify eternal life; while to the Norsemen, they symbolized the revival of the sun god Balder. To those inclined toward superstition, branches of evergreens placed over the door kept out witches, ghosts, evil spirits and the like.
but there wasn't a pagan tradition for decorating fir trees... that's (probably) rooted in 18th century German traditions - not paganism.

kissing under the mistletoe - possibly Druidic fertility rites - so some pagan credibility there - but again not a "tradition" pushed or "claimed" as "Christian"

the feasting has been linked with the Roman feast of saturnalia - so, hardly pagan...


The pagan "yule" was quite a quiet and reflective affair - not recognisable as the Christmas that is celebrated nowadays...

[InsaneApache]

Someone's either not paying attention or hasn't read the whole thread....

[Montreal Wanderer]

Of course some muslims preach ill. Then again, the old Ku Lux Klan did everything in the name of Christianity didn't they? Or maybe the Pope... and that lovely banning of contraception which has helped the old Aids things along quite a bit...

..Of course, I'm being flippant, but to single out Islam is almost Daily Mail laughable.

Of course, I've met Crayons, and I can safely say that he isn't a racist, but I'll fogive those reading his posts through their fingers.

I appreciate the character reference.

You're absolutely correct - I am emphatically not racist. All of the things you have mentioned from other religions are perfectly valid, and they have perhaps all made some contribution to my being atheist.

But I am telling you that my personal experience is that Islam is a religion that I have found to be unpleasant more times that other religions. That is my honest personal experience. I even accept that my personal experience is far too limited for me to announce to the world that I have any useful conclusions about religion.

But I do object to the content of my own empirical observations being termed 'laughable'.

Well, I have to say I was a little surprised at some of the things you said, Mummy. I think characterizing a religion, any religion, as bad or evil is simply wrong. The interpretations of some religious leaders may be highly questionable, the actions of some members may be easily condemned, but to generalize it to a whole religion is not sensible (or helpful) IMHO.

[InsaneApache]

As an atheist I find all religions equally abhorrant. Although the precept is a good idea, it's implication leaves an awful lot to be desired.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Well, I have to say I was a little surprised at some of the things you said, Mummy. I think characterizing a religion, any religion, as bad or evil is simply wrong. The interpretations of some religious leaders may be highly questionable, the actions of some members may be easily condemned, but to generalize it to a whole religion is not sensible (or helpful) IMHO.

I have made no such characterization.

I have said that in my own small experience of life I have observed more instances of muslims being unpleasant for religious reasons than I have for members of other religions. In my opinion, that is factually and statistically incontravertable. I have also said that the likelihood is that my experience is not a fair sample by which to judge all muslims.

[thebish]

Someone's either not paying attention or hasn't read the whole thread....

eh? Raven said that "all the traditions at Christmas have nowt to do with Christianity" - how is it not paying attention for me to point out that this statement is quite clearly bunkum??

clearly some of the traditions at Christmas have a lot to do with Christianity - and hardly any have simply been stolen from Paganism...

[InsaneApache]

Christmas (December 25), Christians move Christ's birthday to this date in 336 A.D.

sigh....

[Montreal Wanderer]

Well, I have to say I was a little surprised at some of the things you said, Mummy. I think characterizing a religion, any religion, as bad or evil is simply wrong. The interpretations of some religious leaders may be highly questionable, the actions of some members may be easily condemned, but to generalize it to a whole religion is not sensible (or helpful) IMHO.

I have made no such characterization.

I have said that in my own small experience of life I have observed more instances of muslims being unpleasant for religious reasons than I have for members of other religions. In my opinion, that is factually and statistically incontravertable. I have also said that the likelihood is that my experience is not a fair sample by which to judge all muslims.

Ah, but are they factually and statistically incontrovertible? Gotcha!
You did say things like you had "impression that Islam is an unusually unpleasant religion" which I find somewhat pejorative.

[TANGODANCER]

Insane Apache is spot on, all the traditions at Christmas have nowt to do with Christianity, they just hijacked old Pagan rituals to try and remove them. There are still some Christian groups that do not celebrate Christmas is its really a Pagan festival (I have lots on this at work, can post them if you really want).
Evidence also proves that its at the wrong time of the year Easters not Christian either

I haven't claimed anywhere that the Christians invented various festivals that happened at different times of year before the birth of Christ. That's like claiming they invented the days of the week, ie, the calender. I also never claimed that Christ was actually born on the 25th of December (as he wasn't) or that other festivals didn't exist at the time we Celebrate the death and ascension of Christ. That would be presumptuous, silly and untrue. What I stressed was they were the times chosen to celebrate these events. Easter happenings, like other events, are classed as moveable feasts for this very purpose. The fact that someone else chooses to celebrate something entirely different is no great surprise as most festivals occur when something happens annually, Midsummer Solstice etc etc. Nowhere have I claimed differently.

Christians are supposed to labour for six days and observe Sunday as a day of rest devoted to worship, but employers don't want to know about that when they want to open for business seven days a week. Imagine the uproar if we wanted a chapel building inside Focus or Homebase. That's what makes it so galling when other religions are catered for in this way without question. Lest you think some fanatically religious Christian is making these statements, let me say right off I am not a regular Church attender, indeed I think it farcial to see televised programmes such as "Songs of Praise" with churches packed to the rafters just because the church is on TV for a night. That's hipocracy to me. I was brought up in a strictly religious family, served eight years as an altarboy and attended church three times each Sunday. I could say the whole ceremonies in Latin (something that even priests don't do now) without batting an eyelid from the age of seven. The interpretations occur later when you are old enough to question some aspects that don't quite gel with you; when you read history and see lots of instances of less than Christian behaviour even by the Papacy. Read of the Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch-hunts The Cathars and Montsegur and you'll see what I mean.

No, I pray in private, attend church when I see fit and believe firmly in God. My choice. I do however, respect and celebrate the designated times of rejoicing within my religion. Proof of God's existence would change the world forever and take away entirely the need for faith or belief without proof. . It's quite clear that there are widely diversified views and opinions on these topics; fair enough. As I said previously, one day we'll all no for sure. Meantime, how strong is your faith, one way or another? Faced with certain death I know what my last words and thoughts would be........do you? I won't be worrying about Royal Mail stamps, that's for certain.

Appologies for the length of my diatribe, got a bit carried away.