Student loans

[TANGODANCER]

If all students that went to university put in the same effort and went on to good careers, then your case may be stronger.
They don't. Some of them while away three years without result, some get the results and, in the case of females may get pregnant and decide not to follow a career or, in the case of either sex, simply don't put their education to use after gaining it. I personally know one such student who let his parents pay for all kinds of luxuries then jacked it in on his last year and took a job on a check-out in Asda.

Then of course, in your free education syndrome, there's the extra burden on the average working man/taxpayer who's kids don't make it to university. It isn't anything with a simple solution.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

a, which in my view would include c. as a result i would have higher and more tax brackets to help pay for this.

Well this is actually quite a significant leap from merely arguing against discrimination on the basis of household income when calculating loan entitlement!

Where the hell do you think we are - Scotland?!


How would providing your education completely free mean that you paid more tax than you will in the current system, which makes you pay a contribution?

That is to say, where is the extra money in your proposal coming from? You will be earning and taxed at that higher level (you hope! ) whether you make contributions or not.


Our elite universities are grossly underfunded, especially when compared to our American counterparts. Take a look at the consequences in the Academic Ranking of World Universities: http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2007/ARWU2007_Top100.htm We've got two in the top 20. Harvard University spends more in a year than every single English university put together.

We're just not competing on the world stage, and everything points to the idea that we should be more American in our approach to funding: this involves the student, the person who benefits most from a good university education, personally contributing a lot more.

[Prufrock]

a, which in my view would include c. as a result i would have higher and more tax brackets to help pay for this.

Well this is actually quite a significant leap from merely arguing against discrimination on the basis of household income when calculating loan entitlement!

Where the hell do you think we are - Scotland?!


How would providing your education completely free mean that you paid more tax than you will in the current system, which makes you pay a contribution?

That is to say, where is the extra money in your proposal coming from? You will be earning and taxed at that higher level (you hope! ) whether you make contributions or not.


Our elite universities are grossly underfunded, especially when compared to our American counterparts. Take a look at the consequences in the Academic Ranking of World Universities: http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2007/ARWU2007_Top100.htm We've got two in the top 20. Harvard University spends more in a year than every single English university put together.

We're just not competing on the world stage, and everything points to the idea that we should be more American in our approach to funding: this involves the student, the person who benefits most from a good university education, personally contributing a lot more.

extra money would come from putting in another bracket above the current top one, at a higher rate. also would come from us stoping cocking it all away on stuff that isnt a priority, like the olympics. dont get me wrong im sure they'll be great but what happened to the whole education education education malarky? all we seem to have done there is lowered standards, so more people get better marks, and stopped telling people they have failed. Job done? i dontthink so. at the end of the end tuition fees are going to put people off going to uni. im going to come out over 35k of debt, at 22. thats before we take into account mortgages and credit cards. we live in a society where debt is everywhere, but what happens if th'economy goes bust? banks start calling in their debts, unemployment rises, no-one can get on the property ladder. who is going ot pay back all these poeple's student loans? at least my way this wouldnt be a problem, because there will always be the rich, therefore the cash will always be there.

i am not an economist, so some, or large parts of what i have said might be ballacks, but it seems a better way of doing it to me.

[Dujon]

I'm with Prufrock on this. As far as I am concerned the State should actively encourage higher education and provide such free to those who wish to participate - within certain limitation. That limitation should be simply the number of places available and the level of achievement exhibited by individuals, which is, in reality, not unlike the situation in commercial or research institutions.

If one or two or tens of thousand of the graduates move on to earn thousands of pound per annum because of the skills they have gained - and improved upon - why should we, as normal tax payers, complain? In a general sense these are the people on whom we depend to keep our economy our industries and our general well being on the straight and level. All graduates contribute in some manner or other to society as a whole, even if you apply the 80:20 principle. I wonder how many of the prospective 20% have been denied the additional education simply because of their inability to pay the fees?

[Prufrock]

If all students that went to university put in the same effort and went on to good careers, then your case may be stronger.
They don't. Some of them while away three years without result, some get the results and, in the case of females may get pregnant and decide not to follow a career or, in the case of either sex, simply don't put their education to use after gaining it. I personally know one such student who let his parents pay for all kinds of luxuries then jacked it in on his last year and took a job on a check-out in Asda.

Then of course, in your free education syndrome, there's the extra burden on the average working man/taxpayer who's kids don't make it to university. It isn't anything with a simple solution.

your point is a valid one tango, but i dont see how the current system prevents this. if somebody goes through uni on the current system, and then jacks it and works in asda, the state isnt going to get the money back, because i doubt they will be earning over the 15k a year. similarly someone could move abroad for 7 years, after which the loan gets written off, so in these cases the state is paying for them to go through uni.


on the same subject, i dontt hink university is necessarily for everyone. there are people who are going to come out with 2:2s and thirds in nothing degrees which will have little or no effect on their employment prospects. for me, such people would be better encouraged to find a trade, something they are good at and then they can go and be good at something, and be the best they can be.

tis a strange thing for a lefty to say but i think getting rid of grammar schools was a bad idea. from what my parents have told me (my dad went to Bolton school, my mum to what was then St. Albans in Chorley), back then the academically gifted were pushed to be the best they can be, the less so were left in poor schools with poor teaching. now the opposite is true. less academically gifted children are pushed hard (which is good) but at the expense of the more gifted. i think the idea that everyone should have the oppurtunity to be anything is flawed. for me, everyone should have the oppurtunity to be the best they can be. as an example i personally could never be a fighter pilot, because i am colour blind. similarly a kid who is not that bright academically is never going to be a barristor. no amount of 'deferred success' is going to change this.

again in my opinion teaching is not a well paid enough career to be attractive enough. we need teachers who are intelligent enough to teach what they teach, and intuitive enough to be able to push kids towards what they will be good at. to use the idea of 'deferred success' again, we need teachers who can understand their pupils. to some kids telling them they have failed will give them the kick up the arse to push themselves. to others it will be soul-destroying. to get the teachers who can judge kids like this we need to make it an attractive career option. in my view this we need to spend a lot more, and in the right places, throughout education. in this intance for me that means making university free for those who it is right for.

[TANGODANCER]

"Deferred success". The very thought. What happened to getting your ass kicked and told to try a bit harder?

[Lord Kangana]

"Deferred success". The very thought. What happened to getting your ass kicked and told to try a bit harder?

Would that it were so Tango...I've had kids coming to me for jobs as 'managers' claiming to be qualified after 12 week management courses, people turn down full time(from part time) jobs because their benefits would be revoked, and have seen all manner of dreamt up CV's with false qualifications and experience on.Loads of people just aren't interested in working their way up anymore, they just want instant rewards....

[TANGODANCER]

"Deferred success". The very thought. What happened to getting your ass kicked and told to try a bit harder?

Would that it were so Tango...I've had kids coming to me for jobs as 'managers' claiming to be qualified after 12 week management courses, people turn down full time(from part time) jobs because their benefits would be revoked, and have seen all manner of dreamt up CV's with false qualifications and experience on.Loads of people just aren't interested in working their way up anymore, they just want instant rewards....

A big part of that is management courses themselves. How, in twelve weeks, can someone claim to be put in charge of people who know their jobs inside out and from experience? I've had to accept that accountants now rule the world but, in doing so have done away with a lot of basic priorities like hard work, progress through systems and customer service importance. Add those to the expected minimum standard of living, two-car, three colour TV's and kids expecting for pocket-money what we got as a week's wage and it doesn't take Mystic Meg to see where the problems lie.

Anyway, back to those loans: Quite hilarious, yesterday, I clicked on this thread and got hit right off by a pop-up add. What was it? A three page application form for a .....loan. I kid you not.

[Prufrock]

"Deferred success". The very thought. What happened to getting your ass kicked and told to try a bit harder?

Would that it were so Tango...I've had kids coming to me for jobs as 'managers' claiming to be qualified after 12 week management courses, people turn down full time(from part time) jobs because their benefits would be revoked, and have seen all manner of dreamt up CV's with false qualifications and experience on.Loads of people just aren't interested in working their way up anymore, they just want instant rewards....

A big part of that is management courses themselves. How, in twelve weeks, can someone claim to be put in charge of people who know their jobs inside out and from experience? I've had to accept that accountants now rule the world but, in doing so have done away with a lot of basic priorities like hard work, progress through systems and customer service importance. Add those to the expected minimum standard of living, two-car, three colour TV's and kids expecting for pocket-money what we got as a week's wage and it doesn't take Mystic Meg to see where the problems lie.

Anyway, back to those loans: Quite hilarious, yesterday, I clicked on this thread and got hit right off by a pop-up add. What was it? A three page application form for a .....loan. I kid you not.

DONT DO IT TG!! they're baaaaaad

[TANGODANCER]

Anyway, back to those loans: Quite hilarious, yesterday, I clicked on this thread and got hit right off by a pop-up add. What was it? A three page application form for a .....loan. I kid you not.

DONT DO IT TG!! they're baaaaaad

You think at my age you need to tell me that..

[communistworkethic]

He is cleverer than all of us TD, don't forget.

[Prufrock]

He is cleverer than all of us TD, don't forget.

:yawn: that not an emoticon?

[Rated R Superstar]

I'm starting university in September. This thread has made me nervous.