Britains Got Talent...

[TANGODANCER]

Who is to say what Dickens had in mind, and to TD, why are you convinced Dickens would have said she was black? I'm pretty sure you have no specific insight in to his thoughts or perceptions of society. It is as reasonbale to suggest that she was indeed black and that he just didn't give it another thought as many such women inhabited the area of London he was writing about, or that in fact his description was somewhat euphemistic.

In respect of the above, a question, and please let's keep this civil: Before this debate (and of course the auditions for the 2008 version of Oliver) if anyone had asked you to describe the character of of Nancy (indeed any of the characters in any Dickens novel) would you have contemplated her being anything other than English caucasian tavern wench and prostitute?

Then, there are of course again, the illustrations from Dickens's works which don't indicate any black characters and Dicken's penchant for good descriptions of his characters. Nowhere did he mention anything like this.

Given, to the best of my knowlege, no one ever suggesting anything other, why such a strong argument to the contrary all of a sudden? You see, if the show's producers wanted a black Nancy, then we'd be having one, unlikely or no, becuse that's the way of the world, where equality seems to be altering even standardised English classics in order to appear pc. I have not the slightest problem in imagining a black girl with great acting talents and a good singing voice making a good and believable job of the part. My only contention is ...why?

Bottom line of my argument is that the question of a black Nancy in the story of Oliver Twist has never before arisen. It did so because a black actress wanted a chance at the part in a modern produced version, not because anyone suddenly said,
"Oh, hey, how do we know Nancy wasn't black"? That, for me, isn't sufficient reason to change several generations of thinking for no apparent reason. A black actress can, and will no doubt, play the part one day. Fine by me, but to suggest the original character was black just to substantiate this has no foundation whatsoever.

Would we really want a white actor/actress playing in Porgy and Bess, Uncle Remus, Roots, Mandingo or someone from Uncle Tom's Cabin ? My contention is that we accepted and were happy with the originals. Why not with Dickens?

[Lord Kangana]

I s'pose this would be an inoportune moment to say I don't like reality TV, so they cast who the fook they like for all I care?

[TANGODANCER]

I s'pose this would be an inoportune moment to say I don't like reality TV, so they cast who the fook they like for all I care?

All in the very best spirit of decent debating of couse.

[a1]

I s'pose this would be an inoportune moment to say I don't like reality TV, so they cast who the fook they like for all I care?

yes, youve spelt cast wrong - it ends with an 'e' ..

[communistworkethic]

Who is to say what Dickens had in mind, and to TD, why are you convinced Dickens would have said she was black? I'm pretty sure you have no specific insight in to his thoughts or perceptions of society. It is as reasonbale to suggest that she was indeed black and that he just didn't give it another thought as many such women inhabited the area of London he was writing about, or that in fact his description was somewhat euphemistic.

In respect of the above, a question, and please let's keep this civil: Before this debate (and of course the auditions for the 2008 version of Oliver) if anyone had asked you to describe the character of of Nancy (indeed any of the characters in any Dickens novel) would you have contemplated her being anything other than English caucasian tavern wench and prostitute?

Then, there are of course again, the illustrations from Dickens's works which don't indicate any black characters and Dicken's penchant for good descriptions of his characters. Nowhere did he mention anything like this.

Given, to the best of my knowlege, no one ever suggesting anything other, why such a strong argument to the contrary all of a sudden? You see, if the show's producers wanted a black Nancy, then we'd be having one, unlikely or no, becuse that's the way of the world, where equality seems to be altering even standardised English classics in order to appear pc. I have not the slightest problem in imagining a black girl with great acting t

alents and a good singing voice making a good and believable job of the part. My only contention is ...why?

Bottom line of my argument is that the question of a black Nancy in the story of Oliver Twist has never before arisen. It did so because a black actress wanted a chance at the part in a modern produced version, not because anyone suddenly said,
"Oh, hey, how do we know Nancy wasn't black"? That, for me, isn't sufficient reason to change several generations of thinking for no apparent reason. A black actress can, and will no doubt, play the part one day. Fine by me, but to suggest the original character was black just to substantiate this has no foundation whatsoever.

Would we really want a white actor/actress playing in Porgy and Bess, Uncle Remus, Roots, Mandingo or someone from Uncle Tom's Cabin ? My contention is that we accepted and were happy with the originals. Why not with Dickens?

again TD, who did those illustrations, not Dickens. And for about the third time did he describe her as black or white or neither?

And congratulations at not only passing 175 years of age but also being present at evry single casting discussion about Nancy, those are some fetes.

You ask "why?" and I ask "why not?", so far you've presented no reasonable argument to support that position.

As for the final comment, are you being ridiculous for the sake of it or racist or ignorant or just bloody-minded avoiding about the fact I've already covered the reasoning for black actors in black roles?

There is absolutely no good reason that a black girl couldn't play Nancy, it has no bearing on the story.

[CAPSLOCK]

Never mind all this

Has anybody got any pics of Sams norks?

[Batman]

[communistworkethic]

Never mind all this

Has anybody got any pics of Sams norks?

this is one for you......



reckon she may have been back to the pie shop since the second one

[General Mannerheim]

Never mind all this

Has anybody got any pics of Sams norks?

i seen up Amanda Holden's skirt on 'Britains got more talent' !

(thread hijacking bastards)

[TANGODANCER]

again TD, who did those illustrations, not Dickens. And for about the third time did he describe her as black or white or neither?

And congratulations at not only passing 175 years of age but also being present at evry single casting discussion about Nancy, those are some fetes.

You ask "why?" and I ask "why not?", so far you've presented no reasonable argument to support that position.

As for the final comment, are you being ridiculous for the sake of it or racist or ignorant or just bloody-minded avoiding about the fact I've already covered the reasoning for black actors in black roles?
There is absolutely no good reason that a black girl couldn't play Nancy, it has no bearing on the story.

You really cannot, despite my request, present a civil post without some caustic, personal comments can you? Another- up to now- reasonable and interesting topic heading for the lock?

What you cover does not make some sort of law. You present your views and your views only. The whole thing has taken a ridiculous turn because you seem to be determined to prove, for some obscure reason, that a character that there was never any reason to suppose was black, is suddenly so in a Dickens novel. I ask why?

I never said anywhere that was a reason, good or otherwise, why a black girl couldn't play the part, just the opposite in fact if you bothered to read my post. I never said it had a bearing on the story what nationality she was, I don't do that now. What I did ask was why are we suddenly to assume that Nancy, the commonly accepted London prostitute of Dicken's novel, was black? Is there a reason to assume that anyone else in the story is black, Chinese, Oriental or anything other than the way Dickens portrayed them? The onus of proving such a supposition lies with the doubter, not me. I'm happy to believe that she was the Nancy I (and probably everyone else) has always seen her as.

Don't try to make a simple debate into something it never was with obnoxious comments about racism, ignorance or avoiding facts that you have already covered; facts that are nothing more than your personal opinion. These, like everything else are just your opinions. It might help if you actually did read the whole posts instead of adopting your usual method of seizing on snippets of it. I asked you a couple of questions, you ignored them by changing track to indicate silly accusations of my age, the fact that Dickens didn't illustrate his own novels and how ignorant and racist I am. What sort of debating is that? Put your personal opinions of me aside and stick with the debate by proving your own facts. Up to now you haven't given one good reason for your argument.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

are you suggesting that a down to earth scrubber in a ropey area of london in dickensian England could under no realist circumstances have been black? I respectfully suggest the gentleman refers back to his history books forthwith.

Perhaps my own library is not as extensive as the honourable gentleman's and he might be kind enough to direct me to a helpful volume?

there has been a black community in London since it was Londinium. More widespread during the 15th&16th centuries until most were arrested under orders from the Queen IIRC.

From the 17th century black people were most common around the large ports, of which London was one, where they were crew, former crew and families of crew of the ships.

Given the time period over which there has been a black representationin london, it is not impossible that some, if not many, were chirpy cockerney sparras, much to the chagrin of future west ham supporters.

As has been pointed out Dickens is less that specific when it comes to the appearance of Nancy, you as with many others, have been indoctrinated by years of romantic interpretations in celluloid of the time and the characters, the majority of which were made during a period when black actors/actresses had little chance of gaining such a role - mickey rooney as chinaman, the aforementioned Larry Lovey as Othello.

Who is to say what Dickens had in mind, and to TD, why are you convinced Dickens would have said she was black? I'm pretty sure you have no specific insight in to his thoughts or perceptions of society. It is as reasonbale to suggest that she was indeed black and that he just didn't give it another thought as many such women inhabited the area of London he was writing about, or that in fact his description was somewhat euphemistic.

Ah ha, I see the honourable gentleman has dusted off his leather-bound copy of the Encyclopedia Wiki! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrival_of ... _in_London

I share TD's conviction (as surely any sane person would) that Dickens' description of Nancy is overwhelmingly suggestive of a caucasian woman, and further that, given the time he was writing, he would have made a big deal of a black character's colour, were he to include one.

[Worthy4England]

I guess there probably isn't a right or wrong here. I probably on Tango's side of the fence, in that I suspect (can't prove) that Dickens probably conceived Nancy as white hooker.

For me, her being played by an Irish person (I think was the lead in) or a coloured person, or Oliver being a different colour to white would not change the story so, for me, it would still work fine, I wouldn't be distracted by the colour of the person playing the role, as it's not relevent to the story and in all honesty I probably wouldn't notice.

For others I guess it's different. All part of life's rich tapestry.

I'm still intrigued to find out if Dickens actually refers to her colour....

[communistworkethic]

again TD, who did those illustrations, not Dickens. And for about the third time did he describe her as black or white or neither?

And congratulations at not only passing 175 years of age but also being present at evry single casting discussion about Nancy, those are some fetes.

You ask "why?" and I ask "why not?", so far you've presented no reasonable argument to support that position.

As for the final comment, are you being ridiculous for the sake of it or racist or ignorant or just bloody-minded avoiding about the fact I've already covered the reasoning for black actors in black roles?
There is absolutely no good reason that a black girl couldn't play Nancy, it has no bearing on the story.

You really cannot, despite my request, present a civil post without some caustic, personal comments can you? Another- up to now- reasonable and interesting topic heading for the lock?

What you cover does not make some sort of law. You present your views and your views only. The whole thing has taken a ridiculous turn because you seem to be determined to prove, for some obscure reason, that a character that there was never any reason to suppose was black, is suddenly so in a Dickens novel. I ask why?

I never said anywhere that was a reason, good or otherwise, why a black girl couldn't play the part, just the opposite in fact if you bothered to read my post. I never said it had a bearing on the story what nationality she was, I don't do that now. What I did ask was why are we suddenly to assume that Nancy, the commonly accepted London prostitute of Dicken's novel, was black? Is there a reason to assume that anyone else in the story is black, Chinese, Oriental or anything other than the way Dickens portrayed them? The onus of proving such a supposition lies with the doubter, not me. I'm happy to believe that she was the Nancy I (and probably everyone else) has always seen her as.

Don't try to make a simple debate into something it never was with obnoxious comments about racism, ignorance or avoiding facts that you have already covered; facts that are nothing more than your personal opinion. These, like everything else are just your opinions. It might help if you actually did read the whole posts instead of adopting your usual method of seizing on snippets of it. I asked you a couple of questions, you ignored them by changing track to indicate silly accusations of my age, the fact that Dickens didn't illustrate his own novels and how ignorant and racist I am. What sort of debating is that? Put your personal opinions of me aside and stick with the debate by proving your own facts. Up to now you haven't given one good reason for your argument.

nobody has made that assumption, but you have made the assumption she's white.

Your final comments...

Bottom line of my argument is that the question of a black Nancy in the story of Oliver Twist has never before arisen. It did so because a black actress wanted a chance at the part in a modern produced version, not because anyone suddenly said,
"Oh, hey, how do we know Nancy wasn't black"? That, for me, isn't sufficient reason to change several generations of thinking for no apparent reason. A black actress can, and will no doubt, play the part one day. Fine by me, but to suggest the original character was black just to substantiate this has no foundation whatsoever.

Would we really want a white actor/actress playing in Porgy and Bess, Uncle Remus, Roots, Mandingo or someone from Uncle Tom's Cabin ? My contention is that we accepted and were happy with the originals. Why not with Dickens

Nobody questioned slavery for years, did it make it right? Your argument that - that's the way it always has been, so that 's the way it should be , is up there with the best 5-year old's arguments - it's just a form of ignorance and bigotry - the comment "no reason to suppose she was black", in your mind, with your perceptions, biases, maybe. You don't speak for every one - your word isn't law. Thankfully. Clearly, plenty have and do consider it reasonable to cast someone who is black as Nancy, a non-race specific character in a role that race has no bearing on.

The final line deserved the contempt with which it was treated. Are you suggesting that any of those characters are not specifically black or that the story isn't fundmentally about the dynamics of their race and that of other protagonists and/or based on historical scenarios they are there to illustrate? There is no paralled between Nancy, who could without any question be black, white, yellow or brown, and Kunta Kinte an african slave, transported to work on cotton plantation in the dramatisation of historical events. Suggesting otherwise is plainly silly.

the "bottom line" is that the colour of nancy is irrelevant whereas that is absolutely not the case in every production, where race can be the core of the plot - as it is in all your examples.


and what is really obnoxious is your pious hypocrisy, setting aside your Daily Mail politics, you like to accuse people of making it personal when you're more than happy to throw the insults around yourself. Just my opinion, of course.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Just a thought.... isn't there a passage in OT in which Nancy disguises herself as Oliver's sister?!

I'm sure I don't need to explain where my line of reasoning is heading next...




(Surely I've nailed it here, Tango! )

[communistworkethic]

Just a thought.... isn't there a passage in OT in which Nancy disguises herself as Oliver's sister?!

I'm sure I don't need to explain where my line of reasoning is heading next...




(Surely I've nailed it here, Tango! )

yeah cos "disguise" means showing that you don't look anything like someone doesn' it?

shouldn't you be stood in a grow-bag somewhere?

[Worthy4England]

Just a thought.... isn't there a passage in OT in which Nancy disguises herself as Oliver's sister?!

I'm sure I don't need to explain where my line of reasoning is heading next...




(Surely I've nailed it here, Tango! )

We still haven't established the Oliver is necessarily white either

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Just a thought.... isn't there a passage in OT in which Nancy disguises herself as Oliver's sister?!

I'm sure I don't need to explain where my line of reasoning is heading next...




(Surely I've nailed it here, Tango! )

We still haven't established the Oliver is necessarily white either

[communistworkethic]

Just a thought.... isn't there a passage in OT in which Nancy disguises herself as Oliver's sister?!

I'm sure I don't need to explain where my line of reasoning is heading next...




(Surely I've nailed it here, Tango! )

We still haven't established the Oliver is necessarily white either

Good one, one of the three Olivers is black........

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Just a thought.... isn't there a passage in OT in which Nancy disguises herself as Oliver's sister?!

I'm sure I don't need to explain where my line of reasoning is heading next...




(Surely I've nailed it here, Tango! )

We still haven't established the Oliver is necessarily white either

Good one, one of the three Olivers is black........

Don't think so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/oliver/news/2008/05/29/55231.shtml

[General Mannerheim]

is Oliver really a boy???