Britains Got Talent...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

So a black girl couldn't attempt to disguise herself as white?

One can attempt almost anything, but I doubt that I black girl could disguise herself as a white girl successfully, or even dream that she could, without hours in a modern Hollywood make up room.

And no matter what, neither of you have shown that Dickens wrote the girl as any race in particular. Tango keeps asking the question "why is it necessary that she's black?" At no pint has anyone said it is a necessity, just that is reasonable to do it within the bounds off an "authentic" production. Which for some reason some of you are very keen to deny, for what reason I don't know.

I think the reference to having 'colour' in her cheeks is overwhelmingly suggestive of a Caucasian visage.

You have argued that this could be some coy racial euphemism on Dickens' part, which I would respectfully suggest is nonsense, and I'm amazed that someone of your intelligence would even suggest it!

[Hoboh]

So a black girl couldn't attempt to disguise herself as white?

One can attempt almost anything, but I doubt that I black girl could disguise herself as a white girl successfully, or even dream that she could, without hours in a modern Hollywood make up room.

And no matter what, neither of you have shown that Dickens wrote the girl as any race in particular. Tango keeps asking the question "why is it necessary that she's black?" At no pint has anyone said it is a necessity, just that is reasonable to do it within the bounds off an "authentic" production. Which for some reason some of you are very keen to deny, for what reason I don't know.

I think the reference to having 'colour' in her cheeks is overwhelmingly suggestive of a Caucasian visage.

You have argued that this could be some coy racial euphemism on Dickens' part, which I would respectfully suggest is nonsense, and I'm amazed that someone of your intelligence would even suggest it!

Maybe Bill Sykes had slapped her?

[General Mannerheim]

hoop la la were good too, they should have made the final at least.

[Hoboh]

hoop la la were good too, they should have made the final at least.

Aye the blonde Nicole Kidman lookalike were well fit!!!!!!

[Montreal Wanderer]

The title of this Cruikshank illustration is: "Mr Fagin and his pupils recovering Nancy". Does this put the Dickens thing to bed?

no, it's interpretive. Until you get Mr Dickens himself here you cannot suggest as to knowing his thoughts, though you have tried.

Actually it may be more than interpretive and Cruikshank may have been more intimately involved involved in the OT theme. I quote from his wiki entry:

For Charles Dickens, Cruikshank illustrated Sketches by Boz (1836) and Oliver Twist (1838). On December 30, 1871 Cruikshank published a letter in The Times which claimed credit for much of the plot of Oliver Twist. The letter launched a fierce controversy around who created the work. While Dickens was the author, Cruikshank developed many ideas like those that appeared in the book and it is difficult -- if not impossible -- to distinguish his concepts from those of Dickens, which were developed at the same time.

In this debate I believe the overwhelmingly probability is that Dickens conceived Nancy as Caucasian. Still, as had been said before and never more truly than here, there are those who would argue black was white just for the sake of argument.

[communistworkethic]

mummy- no, of course a black girl could attempt to disguise herself as white, no, course not, no heavy white face make-up didn't form part of a woman's attire in that period.

And, I'll repeat it yet again, the character isn't specifically white, black, brown, yellow or green with blue spots. Whatever, you may perecieve as Dickens' intention is just that, a perception. That perception is based on your environment and exposure to other people's interpretations of similar circumstances, and it does not preclude anyone elses perception, particularly where that interpretation would sit within the story without changing anything other than that character's skin colour. In terms of this character in this story, it does not need a "re-imagining" to reasonably supplant a black actress in the role of nancy and it be "authentic".

You raised the question could we really have had a black nancy? I say "yes, it's perfectly reasonable", however, someone else decided that it wasn't, and you agreed; based on a view of the ethnic population of london which has been shown to be wrong. It doesn't have to be done, but if somebody did, why should it cause a problem for anyone?

That people of suitable ethnic/geographical backgrounds play parts written for similar backgrounds is fine, who wants another Mr Yunioshi played by mickey rooney? But suggesting that capability to play a role, the ethnicity of which is neither absolute nor intrinsic to the plot, is based on something other than ability is not something I can ever see as acceptable.

Monty - I tend to go with the view that evidence supported by words like "may" and "controversy", is probably not that reliable.. Not to mention the gap between coming up with "themes" and the actual words/intentions of the author.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Monty - I tend to go with the view that evidence supported by words like "may" and "controversy", is probably not that reliable.. Not to mention the gap between coming up with "themes" and the actual words/intentions of the author.

Granted that in the absence of irrefutable evidence, there can conceivably be various alternative possibilities of varying probability (green with blue spots would be significantly lower than black or brown). So in our daily lives (and on juries) we deal with the balance of evidence and the concept of beyond a reasonable doubt. Here, any evidence produced, while not irrefutable has been an indicator for the Caucasian theory with not one shred supporting the black theory, other than that, in a world of infinite possibilities, it remains a possibility. To me the great irony in this is that Tango is arguing on the basis of probability while you stress the remote possibility of an alternative. This is a complete role reversal from your discussions elsewhere on the existence of God, where you argue for the implausibility of a deity as created by man in the absence of any meaningful evidence.

PS I have not read OT recently or thoroughly enough to know whether there is in fact any direct evidence as to Nancy's race.

[CrazyHorse]

Ant and Dec are still a couple of tossers though.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Ant and Dec are still a couple of tossers though.

Prove it!

[CrazyHorse]

Ant and Dec are still a couple of tossers though.

Prove it!

I can't. Well, unless the fact that they're Geordies will suffice?

[Worthy4England]

Ant and Dec are still a couple of tossers though.

Prove it!

I can't. Well, unless the fact that they're Geordies will suffice?

I can accept that as being entirely plausable..

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

mummy- no, of course a black girl could attempt to disguise herself as white, no, course not, no heavy white face make-up didn't form part of a woman's attire in that period.

Seriously?!

[Worthy4England]

mummy- no, of course a black girl could attempt to disguise herself as white, no, course not, no heavy white face make-up didn't form part of a woman's attire in that period.

Seriously?!

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water....

[communistworkethic]

To me the great irony in this is that Tango is arguing on the basis of probability while you stress the remote possibility of an alternative. This is a complete role reversal from your discussions elsewhere on the existence of God, where you argue for the implausibility of a deity as created by man in the absence of any meaningful evidence.

oh don't worry, Monty, the potential for such irony to be assumed within this context wasn't lost on me, I would however, suggest that the probability for a black nancy was slighty more realistic. And, as I suggested in my last post, a character in a book when not specicifically note as a colour then the reader may envisage something different to another reader of the same passage based on their own background. I'm merely pointing out that this perception shouldn't be quite so unpallatable as some seem to want to suggest.


Pencilbiter - I know you're not a big follower of fashion, we've seen your rupert golf pants. However, women in the late Georgian/early victorian period commonly wore heavy white make-up, this was even lead based and resulted in poisoning. - Mrs Miggins the Pie Shoppe owner in Blackadder series 3 would illustrate this. Were a black woman to coat herself with such a covering it might be reasonable to suggest she'd look little different from the white women.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Pencilbiter - I know you're not a big follower of fashion, we've seen your rupert golf pants. However, women in the late Georgian/early victorian period commonly wore heavy white make-up, this was even lead based and resulted in poisoning. - Mrs Miggins the Pie Shoppe owner in Blackadder series 3 would illustrate this. Were a black woman to coat herself with such a covering it might be reasonable to suggest she'd look little different from the white women.

[TANGODANCER]

Not wishing to interrupt this jolly little session in any way but, according to the book, she just curled her hair and borrowed an apron from Fagin. Just saying.

[communistworkethic]

Pencilbiter - I know you're not a big follower of fashion, we've seen your rupert golf pants. However, women in the late Georgian/early victorian period commonly wore heavy white make-up, this was even lead based and resulted in poisoning. - Mrs Miggins the Pie Shoppe owner in Blackadder series 3 would illustrate this. Were a black woman to coat herself with such a covering it might be reasonable to suggest she'd look little different from the white women.

what a fine response from the would-be lawyer, I'm sure that will serve your career well.

so, as I don't have Naomi Campbell available to use as a model, here's an example of the period look..., you're telling me it's impossible for any black woman to cake herself in thick white make-up and powder and achieve a similar result? Oh and rouge on the cheeks was popular... hmm that would be colour in her cheeks.

What really gets me about you two is that you have such a problem with a black woman in this role. Your "are we ready........????", oh we can manage a black candidate for President of the US but oooh no, a black actress in a fictional role... God forbid. And Tango's "one day a black woman will play", but just not now, eh? ooh no, he's just not ready for that. Red-haired irish teenager with a put on cockney accent, fine. Black lass, nooooooo.

Fot the last time, as the sheer level of feck* displayed on the simple basis you're not comfortable with someoene whose skin is the wrong colour for your sensibilities in a part where it makes feck all difference, is frankly quite disturbing, if a director envisaged the character as black then what difference does it make? Neither the story, the plot, the script nor anything else need change, the only difference is the need for your minds to open.

If someone cast Rusty Lee and you watched it and it genuinely didn't work, you might just have a point, if you could unequivocally say it was the skin colour that made it so. But until such a time, to write off the idea is nonsense. Comments that "we're not ready for it", make it seem that it's nothing to do with anything else; not authenticity, not the book, but just race, otherwise, why has timing got the vaguest relevance? Just my opinion.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

you're telling me it's impossible for any black woman to cake herself in thick white make-up and powder and achieve a similar result?

Yes. You're being ridiculous.

[TANGODANCER]

As far as I'm concerned you can find what you will and be disturbed the same way. Your indications of any form of racialism are as insulting as they are laughable.

It's unimportant. What is really disturbing here is not someone playing a role, but your continued pursual of Nancy in Oliver Twist not being an ordinary white tavern wench as everything in the book indicates. . Nancy disguised herself for a visit to a police station and to pass herself off as a middle-class woman. She heightened that effect by wearing a key on her belt to indicate she was a property owner and give credibility to her disguise. Is it really within the bounds of credibility that a black girl could have fooled the ocupants of a police station by wearing white make-up?

Now, here, word for word is my very first post on the topic. I gave my simple view in it, I stand by it. Please take the trouble to read it, particularly the last sentence. Then see how it all got twisted beyond recognition.

"Interesting. See this is a point worthy of comment (I won't call it a problem as that could be misconstrued). In Dickensian London it was probably feasible to maybe imagine an Irish girl in the Nancy role, but a black girl I'm much less sure of. Same applies for the role of Oliver. I'm all for the way today is, and something written today could well have any nationality in such roles, but we are talking of Victorian London here. There were few black citizen numbers of any real note in England until the Jamaican arrivals in the nineteen-fifties. From the backgounds, and also from book illustrations of the period, I'm sure Dickens envisaged no such thing or he would have stressed it.

Some years ago they made a film of Bizet's Carmen, set not in Spain, but modern-day America, and called it Carmen Jones. The bullfight was replaced by the boxing ring and it had a primarily black cast and worked fine. The story of Oliver in a modern setting could also have quite some flexibilty in its casting, but not, I think, the period one.

A lot of films made today, creditably, use the right sort of actors for the part. An example of awful casting was the Hornblower film I saw this weekend where a brown-dyed guy with a terrible accent played a Spaniard. Today, we'd use a Spaniard or whatever nationality the part calls for. In terms of reality reconstruction, the story and the period should be respected. Nancy was a prostitute with a good heart, something that could well be played by any race in a modern drama, but for Oliver and its period, I think they should respect Dickens. Others may well have different views although there's nothing much controversial about the topic for me. .

[CAPSLOCK]

Go on then, Jessies will do