Christening

thebish · Post by **thebish** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:13 pm

communistworkethic wrote: my mate's written a book and he says that we are mostly athiests, he's got no evidence other than the fact that there's a gap in his undrestanding so he's filled it with supposition. I like what he says though, so I've decided to believe his version of events.

I'd never swear allegiance to something I can't spell........

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:18 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:I'd be absolutely astounded if the two figues offered (14% and the 31-44%) were even close. I only know two people who regularly attend church, and they are my best mates parents. The vast majority of people I know attend church for weddings/christenings/funerals and thats your lot. Thats fine if its your thing, but ive a hunch that Islamic attendance at churches now pushes christian denominations.

Muslims believe in God, they just call him by another name. I don't attend church very often these days. I got in lumber for accepting a scholarship to a non-Catholic technical college. It isn't a criteria of being an adult Christian but a personal choice. Even the bible states it isn't necessary to be seen to worship.

I know people who pray at football matches.

Bruce Rioja · Post by **Bruce Rioja** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:37 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:I was referring to Britain, not the world, merely to counteract the bold bit in Prufrock's post. No doubt, in time, we'll have Science Parents to replace it all, so it won't really matter one way or the other. Thankfully, I probably won't be around to see it.

I understand that entirely, my friend. The bit that I'm questioning is the plausibility of the figures that you quote. They seem to me to be at best, arbitrary.

Prufrock · Post by **Prufrock** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:18 am

I'm sorry TG but i dont buy those figures. Whether or not the majority is right in its belief, the majority in my experience dont beleive in any god. Now it is perfectly plausible that my personal experiences are coloured, and dont reflect the country, in which case my use of 'majority', and 'nation' would be proven untrue. That said, I can thing of 6 people off the top of my head, that i know who honeslty beleive in any sort of god. That includes my friends, my parents friends, my grandparents friends etc.... Somebody mentioned Islam, yet i know far more 'muslim' kids who dont actualy beleive in Allah (yet in a survey by which your statistics might be copiled TG, would feel compelled to class themselves as 'Muslim' due to external pressures) than 'muslim' kids who do. By kids i mean people my own age (ie old enough to make up their own mind). I can count the number of people i know who are genuine beleivers without even needing to take my socks off. Maybe i have met a strange cross section of the population, but i would stand by my personal FEELING, that the majority of folks in this country are at least agnostic (which would surely make them inappropriate in the strictest sense to be godparents, thus leaving my original point unscathed), if not Atheist.

That said i dont think that whether or not the majority of the country is Atheist, or Theistic is relevant to my original point. It is indisputable that MANY people who arent firm beleivers in Christianity become Godparents, and the role provides a social function as a moral guide to the child, whether or not the familly/child/godparent is a beleiver. The term may be anachronistic, but to deny the child this accepted ritual because a participant is not a Christian, seems no more ridiculous to me than telling an atheist they cant get married.

Prufrock · Post by **Prufrock** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:21 am

communistworkethic wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote:
Prufrock wrote: the reason i was christened. That has been the case for ages, my auntie didnt get into the school my grandparents wanted, because even though she was christened, it was the worng denomination or something. I personally feel 'godparent' is a role in our society which is still relevant, even if the name is slightly achronistic. Wedding's are grounded in religon, yet in what is now a mostly atheist nation, if somebody suggested people shouldnt enter 'holy matrimony' becasue they werent religious, it would seem weird. People still get married, but as a pledge of commitment, or even to make house ownership and legal rights clearer. The role plays a function. In the same way, as Commie says, IMO, the role of godparent nowadays still has a function, even amongst atheists.
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html
my mate's written a book and he says that we are mostly athiests, he's got no evidence other than the fact that there's a gap in his undrestanding so he's filled it with supposition. I like what he says though, so I've decided to believe his version of events.

Get him to publish it, we could call it the....i dont know.....Scrunchie? No. Hairband?No. The Bobble? That'll do. I know a bloke called James, who's a King , he could write his own version? Could be a bestseller??

thebish · Post by **thebish** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:28 am

Prufrock wrote:I'm sorry TG but i dont buy those figures. Whether or not the majority is right in its belief, the majority in my experience dont beleive in any god. Now it is perfectly plausible that my personal experiences are coloured, and dont reflect the country, in which case my use of 'majority', and 'nation' would be proven untrue. That said, I can thing of 6 people off the top of my head, that i know who honeslty beleive in any sort of god. That includes my friends, my parents friends, my grandparents friends etc.... Somebody mentioned Islam, yet i know far more 'muslim' kids who dont actualy beleive in Allah (yet in a survey by which your statistics might be copiled TG, would feel compelled to class themselves as 'Muslim' due to external pressures) than 'muslim' kids who do. By kids i mean people my own age (ie old enough to make up their own mind). I can count the number of people i know who are genuine beleivers without even needing to take my socks off. Maybe i have met a strange cross section of the population, but i would stand by my personal FEELING, that the majority of folks in this country are at least agnostic (which would surely make them inappropriate in the strictest sense to be godparents, thus leaving my original point unscathed), if not Atheist.

That said i dont think that whether or not the majority of the country is Atheist, or Theistic is relevant to my original point. It is indisputable that MANY people who arent firm beleivers in Christianity become Godparents, and the role provides a social function as a moral guide to the child, whether or not the familly/child/godparent is a beleiver. The term may be anachronistic, but to deny the child this accepted ritual because a participant is not a Christian, seems no more ridiculous to me than telling an atheist they cant get married.

figures are notoriously difficult to produce - and most a pretty much worthless in this area for several reasons.. people hardly ever describe themselves accurately in this area in surveys, still the most common answer is something along the lines of "I believe in some kind of a higher power but I don't really know much about it and I don't feel the need to go to church cos I think being a good person is what matters..." - it's a very British kind of an answer!

my suspicion is that there is a reasonably small percentage of "proper" Christians - and a reasonably small percentage of "proper" atheists - both groups being distinctly UN-British in that they have made up their minds one way or the other.. both viewed by the general populace as a bit fanatical...

the vast bulk of people are probably best described as agnostic - they have vague ideas from a mish-mash of sources that they have cobbled together over the years - but wouldn't go to the stake over any of them! (there's a quick definition of the Church of England

)

that's just my guess.....

interestingly.... LOTS of research has been done in the states - and 70% of Americans who say they are atheists also believe in an after-life... ("go figure" as they might say...)

fatshaft · Post by **fatshaft** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:27 am

Lord Kangana wrote:I'd be absolutely astounded if the two figues offered (14% and the 31-44%) were even close. I only know two people who regularly attend church, and they are my best mates parents. The vast majority of people I know attend church for weddings/christenings/funerals and thats your lot. Thats fine if its your thing, but ive a hunch that Islamic attendance at churches now pushes christian denominations.

Got to say Tango, those figures look appalingly incorrect. Like LK, I don't know anyone who is religious, and outside of Weddings/Funerals they never step foot inside church.

I'd be interested in find8ing out how they achieved those figures ie. what exactly people were asked?

I'd it said 5% were religious I would be more inclined to believe it, but those figures are seriously wrong imo.

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:55 am

fatshaft wrote:
Lord Kangana wrote:I'd be absolutely astounded if the two figues offered (14% and the 31-44%) were even close. I only know two people who regularly attend church, and they are my best mates parents. The vast majority of people I know attend church for weddings/christenings/funerals and thats your lot. Thats fine if its your thing, but ive a hunch that Islamic attendance at churches now pushes christian denominations.
Got to say Tango, those figures look appalingly incorrect. Like LK, I don't know anyone who is religious, and outside of Weddings/Funerals they never step foot inside church.

I'd be interested in find8ing out how they achieved those figures ie. what exactly people were asked?

I'd it said 5% were religious I would be more inclined to believe it, but those figures are seriously wrong imo.

Even I wouldn't out too much on figures, because, as you say, how do they compile them. No one asked me, for instance, and I bet no one else here was asked. ? The point you are missing, I think, is that church attendance is not a guide as to how many people believe in God. There is a vast difference as the atheist is the one who doesn't and someone who does. Believers and Churchgoers are entirely different things. Look at how the attendance quadruples in any Church where "Songs of Praise" is being televised. It becomes a rival for Britain's got Talent" ( Lord, I almost typed "Bratten's got talent" then)

overnight. No guide at all.

As an aside, Our Lady of Lourdes Church in Farnworth always has a decent turn out on Sundays, and I've personally seen several Asian families coming out after services.

communistworkethic · Post by **communistworkethic** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:20 pm

TANGODANCER wrote: As an aside, Our Lady of Lourdes Church in Farnworth always has a decent turn out on Sundays, and I've personally seen several Asian families coming out after services.

so? not sure what, if anything, this proves or demonstrates

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:29 pm

communistworkethic wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote: As an aside, Our Lady of Lourdes Church in Farnworth always has a decent turn out on Sundays, and I've personally seen several Asian families coming out after services.
so? not sure what, if anything, this proves or demonstrates

It demonstrates that some people do go to church and that Asians attend other churches than the mosque . More than anything it proves that some people believe in God. It wasn't meant to be a world-shattering point, just a mention in keeping with the general conversation.. Next?

thebish · Post by **thebish** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:45 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
communistworkethic wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote: As an aside, Our Lady of Lourdes Church in Farnworth always has a decent turn out on Sundays, and I've personally seen several Asian families coming out after services.
so? not sure what, if anything, this proves or demonstrates
It demonstrates that some people do go to church and that Asians attend other churches than the mosque . More than anything it proves that some people believe in God. It wasn't meant to be a world-shattering point, just a mention in keeping with the general conversation.. Next?

Nobody said Asians only go to the mosque did they??? Such a thought would be utterly preposterous....

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:59 pm

thebish wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote:
communistworkethic wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote: As an aside, Our Lady of Lourdes Church in Farnworth always has a decent turn out on Sundays, and I've personally seen several Asian families coming out after services.
so? not sure what, if anything, this proves or demonstrates
It demonstrates that some people do go to church and that Asians attend other churches than the mosque . More than anything it proves that some people believe in God. It wasn't meant to be a world-shattering point, just a mention in keeping with the general conversation.. Next?
Nobody said Asians only go to the mosque did they??? Such a thought would be utterly preposterous....

Well, apart from your own (which I assume was just a joke) comment about mosques, I was actually replying to LK's Islamic comment "quote: ive a hunch that Islamic attendance at churches now pushes christian denominations. unquote. which, due to him using the word "Islamic", ie as opposed to Christian or other, I took to mean attendences at mosques. Strict Muslims would not attend churches of the cross, so there must be a Christian element among Asian people.

thebish · Post by **thebish** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:08 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
thebish wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote:
communistworkethic wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote: As an aside, Our Lady of Lourdes Church in Farnworth always has a decent turn out on Sundays, and I've personally seen several Asian families coming out after services.
so? not sure what, if anything, this proves or demonstrates
It demonstrates that some people do go to church and that Asians attend other churches than the mosque . More than anything it proves that some people believe in God. It wasn't meant to be a world-shattering point, just a mention in keeping with the general conversation.. Next?
Nobody said Asians only go to the mosque did they??? Such a thought would be utterly preposterous....
Well, apart from your own (which I assume was just a joke) comment about mosques, I was actually replying to LK's Islamic comment "quote: ive a hunch that Islamic attendance at churches now pushes christian denominations. unquote. which, due to him using the word "Islamic", ie as opposed to Christian or other, I took to mean attendences at mosques. Strict Muslims would not attend churches of the cross, so there must be a Christian element among Asian people.

tango - I think the heat is getting to you!

LK was trying to say there are more muslims at mosques in the UK than christians at churches (or at least that this would soon be the case) - except he put "church" instead of "mosque" - and i corrected that small error...

nobody ever suggested anywhere that Asians only go to mosques... really - they didn't. Your comment that Asians are seen coming out of church - as if it is odd or noteworthy - was the strange remark in all of this..... in fact - you are the only one to mention "Asians" at all anywhere....

David Lee's Hair · Post by **David Lee's Hair** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:21 pm

Not that strange really that Asians were in a church, there are about 26 million Christians in India and Pakistan, admittedly its only c3% of the combined populations) so there are going to be a few in the UK - one of my good friends actually happens to be a Christian Indian.

Out of interest that's over half the number of christians in the UK, a Christian country.

Lord Kangana · Post by **Lord Kangana** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:44 pm

thebish wrote: LK was trying to say there are more muslims at mosques in the UK than christians at churches (or at least that this would soon be the case) - except he put "church" instead of "mosque" - and i corrected that small error...

nobody ever suggested anywhere that Asians only go to mosques... really - they didn't. Your comment that Asians are seen coming out of church - as if it is odd or noteworthy - was the strange remark in all of this..... in fact - you are the only one to mention "Asians" at all anywhere....

You'd be right, I made a slight error in syntax.

Will I now burn in hell?

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:52 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
thebish wrote: tango - I think the heat is getting to you!

LK was trying to say there are more muslims at mosques in the UK than christians at churches (or at least that this would soon be the case) - except he put "church" instead of "mosque" - and i corrected that small error...

nobody ever suggested anywhere that Asians only go to mosques... really - they didn't. Your comment that Asians are seen coming out of church - as if it is odd or noteworthy - was the strange remark in all of this..... in fact - you are the only one to mention "Asians" at all anywhere....
Yes, I think that must be it. Carry on then.

Oh, er did you notice the first three words of the sentence "As an aside"?
Usually means just that. A comment aside from the rest. Wasn't meant to start Armagedon.

Zulus Thousand of em · Post by **Zulus Thousand of em** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:09 pm

Anyone heard that old saying - there are no atheists in foxholes? I hope I never have to test it!

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:38 pm

Zulus Thousand of em wrote:Anyone heard that old saying - there are no atheists in foxholes? I hope I never have to test it!

Careful Zulu, I've quoted that here before, and got blasted out of sight. I'd delete it if I were you. Atheists, thousands of em

thebish · Post by **thebish** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:53 pm

Zulus Thousand of em wrote:Anyone heard that old saying - there are no atheists in foxholes? I hope I never have to test it!

it's true - that's cos all atheists are giant fat wobblebottoms who wouldn't fit into a foxhole.....

fatshaft · Post by **fatshaft** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:11 pm

thebish wrote:
Zulus Thousand of em wrote:Anyone heard that old saying - there are no atheists in foxholes? I hope I never have to test it!
it's true - that's cos all atheists are giant fat wobblebottoms who wouldn't fit into a foxhole.....

nah, it's because atheists have more sense than joining the infantry

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