Hillsborough piece in The Observer on Sunday

fatshaft · Post by **fatshaft** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:04 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
I mean the 182 deaths in seating areas in the UK.

Thats what matters because its our society that has learned the lessons.

Our policing at matches that has improved. We all know its not the same in every country.

The lessons have been learned here.

Exactly

blurred · Post by **blurred** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:16 pm

fatshaft wrote:If you're now saying that the campaigners are actually going round the world trying to improve stadium safety, (as you admit there hasn't been a single death in the UK since) then fair play. I think however no such campaign exists.

I'm not sure who 'the campaigners' that you refer to are. If you mean the HJC and Anne Williams (and the like), then no, they're not; they're concerned with justice for their children/siblings/spouses who died at the hands of the system, and who want to know who was responsible and what should have been done.

If by the campaigners you mean people in the football industry in general, then yes, we are. Well, perhaps not the world, but certainly in Europe. The UK (FSF and other bodies) are at the forefront of a move with UEFA to instigate Europe-wide matchday policing and stewarding instructions and standards (for UEFA competitions). Bolton fans who were whacked indiscriminately by the police in Madrid will surely understand the need for this?

Hillsborough as an event is something that draws on a lot of these issues, and affects a lot of people - a proper investigation into culpability can only benefit all sides, surely? If 'the establishment' are covering up what really happened, as in the case of the ambulance man quoted in the OP's article, how can we be sure that all the lessons have been learned? If the lack of clarity of events that day holds back developments for football fans today (as in the safe-standing debate, safety at grounds, whatever), shouldn't we re-appraise the situation?

Worthy4England · Post by **Worthy4England** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:20 pm

blurred wrote:
fatshaft wrote:If you're now saying that the campaigners are actually going round the world trying to improve stadium safety, (as you admit there hasn't been a single death in the UK since) then fair play. I think however no such campaign exists.
I'm not sure who 'the campaigners' that you refer to are. If you mean the HJC and Anne Williams (and the like), then no, they're not; they're concerned with justice for their children/husbands/wives who died at the hands of the system, and who want to know who was responsible and what should have been done.

If by the campaigners you mean people in the football industry in general, then yes, we are. Well, perhaps not the world, but certainly in Europe. The UK (FSF and other bodies) are at the forefront of a move with UEFA to instigate Europe-wide matchday policing and stewarding instructions and standards (for UEFA competitions). Bolton fans who were whacked indiscriminately by the police in Madrid will surely understand the need for this?

Hillsborough as an event is something that draws on a lot of these issues - a proper investigation into culpability can only benefit all sides, surely? If 'the establishment' are covering up what really happened, as in the case of the ambulance man quoted in the OP's article, how can we be sure that all the lessons have been learned?

Bottom line is, that you will never get to the lessons learned unless there's a moratorium on prosecutions and culpability. It's too entrenched on both sides of the fence. The two need separating out, if what happened is to be of any value. Otherwise all that happens is "blame".

However once a moratorium has been reached, there could be no going back, which probably wouldn't be ideal for some of the people involved as I suspect they'd want some sort of compensation for their distress.

BWFC_Insane · Post by **BWFC_Insane** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:22 pm

blurred wrote:
fatshaft wrote:If you're now saying that the campaigners are actually going round the world trying to improve stadium safety, (as you admit there hasn't been a single death in the UK since) then fair play. I think however no such campaign exists.
I'm not sure who 'the campaigners' that you refer to are. If you mean the HJC and Anne Williams (and the like), then no, they're not; they're concerned with justice for their children/siblings/spouses who died at the hands of the system, and who want to know who was responsible and what should have been done.

If by the campaigners you mean people in the football industry in general, then yes, we are. Well, perhaps not the world, but certainly in Europe. The UK (FSF and other bodies) are at the forefront of a move with UEFA to instigate Europe-wide matchday policing and stewarding instructions and standards (for UEFA competitions). Bolton fans who were whacked indiscriminately by the police in Madrid will surely understand the need for this?

Hillsborough as an event is something that draws on a lot of these issues, and affects a lot of people - a proper investigation into culpability can only benefit all sides, surely? If 'the establishment' are covering up what really happened, as in the case of the ambulance man quoted in the OP's article, how can we be sure that all the lessons have been learned? If the lack of clarity of events that day holds back developments for football fans today (as in the safe-standing debate, safety at grounds, whatever), shouldn't we re-appraise the situation?

But the point is it hasn't.

Things in this country have improved massively since then.

No amount of investigation will change things in other countries as you are looking at a completely different system with a different policing system, different politics etc.

TBH Africa has more pressing issues than worrying about a few hundred football fans who have died in a 10 year period.

So should everyone.

Hillsborough has been and gone, the lessons learned.

Just like I've learned if you go to Anfield expect things to be thrown at you.

blurred · Post by **blurred** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:24 pm

Worthy4England wrote:However once a moratorium has been reached, there could be no going back, which probably wouldn't be ideal for some of the people involved as I suspect they'd want some sort of compensation for their distress.

Well the police have already had theirs

Worthy4England · Post by **Worthy4England** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:28 pm

blurred wrote:
Worthy4England wrote:However once a moratorium has been reached, there could be no going back, which probably wouldn't be ideal for some of the people involved as I suspect they'd want some sort of compensation for their distress.
Well the police have already had theirs

So - if I said there'd be a full and open enquiry - and promised that everyone would tell the truth (assuming they can remember it accurately), but no prosecutions or compensation could be claimed moving forwards - there would be a complete line drawn under it. Would you go for that?

blurred · Post by **blurred** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:41 pm

Worthy4England wrote:So - if I said there'd be a full and open enquiry - and promised that everyone would tell the truth (assuming they can remember it accurately), but no prosecutions or compensation could be claimed moving forwards - there would be a complete line drawn under it. Would you go for that?

Such as my opinion matters on this, then yes. I think that a full and frank enquiry, to fully establish the facts of the disaster (apportioning blame and credit where appropriate) could only be a good thing. I don't know if that would be a majority view of people who were there or who lost friends and family, or of Liverpool fans overall, or football fans in general, but yes, I'd support that.

I'm not sure how much vengeance (or the thought of compensation) runs the thoughts of those who want to see 'justice' done for their loss, and whether a public admission of guilt would be enough for their own closure on events and their grief. I'd hope so, but I'd certainly not castigate anyone who told me to get stuffed and that they wanted to see people prosecuted for it. I can understand that wholeheartedly.

I think a lot of people are now just in search of a public acknowledgement of 'the truth' - to correct the lies, spin and media manipulation that's gone on in the intervening 20 years. How much of a difference it'd make in the perception of the public at large, I don't know.

Worthy4England · Post by **Worthy4England** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:04 pm

You see, I think that's where it would break down...the apportioning blame bit.

Without trying to apportion "blame" if we look at the first story in the article, the guy tried to get into the right end for his ticket (Nottingham Forest end) and is told he can't because of the colours he's wearing and the fact that the police know he's a Liverpool fan. At this stage, who is right and who is wrong, the copper for telling him he can't get in or the fan for trying to get into the opposition's end wearing a shirt (or his colours as he describes them - so may not have been a shirt) of a different colour? All I know is on odd occasions when I've been sat in opposition territory - I don't wear my Bolton shirt.

To be clear, from my point of view, he shouldn't have been directed to the Liverpool end by the copper, he certainly shouldn't have been let in with a ticket for the wrong end, but he probably shouldn't have had a ticket for the Forest end either given that he's not a Forest fan - and given that he did have, should have used enough "personal responsibility" and not put his "colours" on. Where blame starts and ends is not an easy subject.

blurred · Post by **blurred** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:54 am

I don't think it can have been just 'colours' (seeing as both sides play in red), but I also don't think you can get too bogged down in individuals' details. I can't say that he should have been directed to the wrong end, or refused admission, because he'd done nothing illegal. Plenty of fans went into the 'wrong' end all the time back in the day, as sometimes it was the only place you could get a ticket. You can't say that X police officer was responsible for however many specific deaths for failing to open a gate at the front of the stand or directing fans to a certain area, but overall responsibility can be taken for the operational decisions like the refusal to allow ambulances onto the pitch, or the decisions in allocating the ends, or even having Hillsborough as a host ground in the first place.

The official HSE report gives a best estimate of 9734 people having been admitted into the end by 3.05 (having literally counted on CCTV footage).

An interesting fact about Hillsborough, for those that don't know - there were 7 turnstiles at the Leppings Lane End, to cope with a capacity of 10,100 fans. The opposite Kop end, by comparison, had 42 turnstiles for 21,000 fans. The average capacity of each turnstile was around 600 people per hour (or, to put it another way, one person through each turnstile every 5 seconds).

To fill the Leppings Lane End to capacity, assuming that all the turnstiles were operating at maximum efficiency all the time (one person every 4 seconds), would take just under 3 hours.

By contrast, you could fill the opposite end of the ground in around 50 minutes.

If that HSE figure is taken to be accurate, and that the numbers inside the ground at that point were under (or even allowing for a 5% or so margin for error and increasing the figure) at/around capacity, how did 96 people lose their lives?

a1 · Post by a1 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:10 pm

blurred wrote:I don't think it can have been just 'colours' (seeing as both sides play in red), but I also don't think you can get too bogged down in individuals' details. I can't say that he should have been directed to the wrong end, or refused admission, because he'd done nothing illegal. Plenty of fans went into the 'wrong' end all the time back in the day, as sometimes it was the only place you could get a ticket. You can't say that X police officer was responsible for however many specific deaths for failing to open a gate at the front of the stand or directing fans to a certain area, but overall responsibility can be taken for the operational decisions like the refusal to allow ambulances onto the pitch, or the decisions in allocating the ends, or even having Hillsborough as a host ground in the first place.

The official HSE report gives a best estimate of 9734 people having been admitted into the end by 3.05 (having literally counted on CCTV footage).

An interesting fact about Hillsborough, for those that don't know - there were 7 turnstiles at the Leppings Lane End, to cope with a capacity of 10,100 fans. The opposite Kop end, by comparison, had 42 turnstiles for 21,000 fans. The average capacity of each turnstile was around 600 people per hour (or, to put it another way, one person through each turnstile every 5 seconds).

To fill the Leppings Lane End to capacity, assuming that all the turnstiles were operating at maximum efficiency all the time (one person every 4 seconds), would take just under 3 hours.

By contrast, you could fill the opposite end of the ground in around 50 minutes.

If that HSE figure is taken to be accurate, and that the numbers inside the ground at that point were under (or even allowing for a 5% or so margin for error and increasing the figure) at/around capacity, how did 96 people lose their lives?

i have feeling that the maths is totally wack.

12 people a minute x 60 = 720 x 7 = 5040 an hour for the whole end.

wouldve took about a minute more than 2 hours. roughly.

if its 4 people a second it would take just over 96 minutes. roughly.

i think it wouldve been safer to shut it at 14:50 , but then i've a feeling we'd still be hearing stories about the injustice of x number of scousers missing a cup semi final 20 years later.

its been and gone, theyve seated all the grounds now.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:25 pm

a1 wrote:
blurred wrote:I don't think it can have been just 'colours' (seeing as both sides play in red), but I also don't think you can get too bogged down in individuals' details. I can't say that he should have been directed to the wrong end, or refused admission, because he'd done nothing illegal. Plenty of fans went into the 'wrong' end all the time back in the day, as sometimes it was the only place you could get a ticket. You can't say that X police officer was responsible for however many specific deaths for failing to open a gate at the front of the stand or directing fans to a certain area, but overall responsibility can be taken for the operational decisions like the refusal to allow ambulances onto the pitch, or the decisions in allocating the ends, or even having Hillsborough as a host ground in the first place.

The official HSE report gives a best estimate of 9734 people having been admitted into the end by 3.05 (having literally counted on CCTV footage).

An interesting fact about Hillsborough, for those that don't know - there were 7 turnstiles at the Leppings Lane End, to cope with a capacity of 10,100 fans. The opposite Kop end, by comparison, had 42 turnstiles for 21,000 fans. The average capacity of each turnstile was around 600 people per hour (or, to put it another way, one person through each turnstile every 5 seconds).

To fill the Leppings Lane End to capacity, assuming that all the turnstiles were operating at maximum efficiency all the time (one person every 4 seconds), would take just under 3 hours.

By contrast, you could fill the opposite end of the ground in around 50 minutes.

If that HSE figure is taken to be accurate, and that the numbers inside the ground at that point were under (or even allowing for a 5% or so margin for error and increasing the figure) at/around capacity, how did 96 people lose their lives?
i have feeling that the maths is totally wack.

12 people a minute x 60 = 720 x 7 = 5040 an hour for the whole end.

wouldve took about a minute more than 2 hours. roughly.

if its 4 people a second it would take just over 96 minutes. roughly.

i think wouldve been safer to shut it at 14:50 , but then i've a feeling we'd still be hearing stories about the injustice of x number of scousers missing a cup semi final 20 years later.

its been and gone, theyve seated all the grounds now.

Moronic stupid thing to say!

This would have been finished and remembered in the correct way years ago IF those responsible did not have a lot of the evidence hidden, denied, ignored. I personally don't think anyone is after compensation as Blurred said those invloved want to see justice done and people admit to what actually happened, an apology etc something to give closure.

blurred · Post by **blurred** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:52 pm

Apologies for my shocking maths, I was writing that somewhat on the hoof this morning. And anyway, why should an end of a football ground take 2 hours to fill completely, even if the turnstiles are operating at maximum effort all the time?

And that notwithstanding, if that HSE figure is taken to be accurate, and that the numbers inside the ground at that point were under (or even allowing for a 5% or so margin for error and increasing the figure) at/around capacity, how did 96 people lose their lives? Your suggestion of shutting the gates would've alleviated a few problems, but given that 96 people died when the stand had let in less than its total capacity, surely there are other factors that need to be looked at when assessing what happened, and why?

Worthy4England · Post by **Worthy4England** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:57 pm

blurred wrote:I don't think it can have been just 'colours' (seeing as both sides play in red), but I also don't think you can get too bogged down in individuals' details.

I think you're right that you can get bogged down in individual (but important) details. you were still talking about apportioning blame (but in a manner that didn't allow for claims to be made, individuals to get sacked etc. moving forwards etc.)

The point I'm making is, that it is not alright for any significant number of people to think it's "ok" to get tickets for the opposition end and wear the "opposition" colours. The police advise against any without a ticket travelling usually, so it's not ok to do so and think you can tout any ticket for any part of the ground etc. it isn't ok to expect that grounds can accomodate 10000 people getting in, in 10 minutes - especially if the ticket says please turn up early. It's absolutely not ok to sit behind me as a Liverpool supporter, at a League Cup final, in the wrong end and ask me to sit the feck down - as happened when we played you guys - I will assume you're not there, as indeed you shouldn't be.

blurred · Post by **blurred** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:40 pm

We've been down the 'away fans in home end' thing on here many times, and my views on that are pretty well-established. It's out of order if you're taking a ticket from a home fan (ie if it's a sell-out with no reasonable chance for everyone to get a ticket). If it's not sold out, I don't mind, so long as you behave yourself. Ultimately, as long as you behave reasonably, I don't mind. The bloke in the league cup final obviously wasn't, so I'd have issues with him.

Worthy4England wrote:it isn't ok to expect that grounds can accomodate 10000 people getting in, in 10 minutes - especially if the ticket says please turn up early.

The tickets for Hillsborough definitely only advised fans to arrive by 2.45pm (I'll try and find something more 'concrete' than Wiki). I know it's a bit of a crap source (Wiki), but they say the following: "Hillsborough Stadium was segregated between the opposing fans as was customary at all large matches, the Liverpool supporters being assigned to the Leppings Lane End of the stadium. Kick-off was scheduled for 3:00 pm, with fans advised to take up their positions[5] fifteen minutes beforehand."

Official advice was to be there 15 mins before kick off, when it'd take the best part of two hours to fill the stand. We know that there's people (still now) who turn up late, and if they miss the start of the match then tough titties, but I'm afraid that one can't hide behind the 'if you're given official advice and don't follow it then it's your own fault', especially when the official advice was woefully inadequate, as were the arrangements for entry, and everyone knew it.

a1 · Post by a1 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:47 pm

[this post has been deleted for apparantly making no sense. An enternal wake has probably not been organized in its honour.]

blurred · Post by **blurred** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:18 pm

a1 wrote:dont know, to me the end looked totally rammed. but that jimmy mcgovern drama said at least one of 'pens' was empty , probably coz people started making panicked 'mistakes' to get the liverpool fans that turned up (apparantly with tickets) at something like 3 minutes to 3. (have vague memories of seeing a video of cctv of what seemed like half a million peeps running fast as owt to get there -on some news report) these mistakes probably wouldnt have caused people to die if the 'mistakes' were made an hour or so before [wouldve gradually got 'tight' someone wouldve noticed (or not noticed, but the gradual fill wouldve been less diasaterous than the stampede it steemed to be)]

total clusterfuck they should all just write off. either the stadium staff and police were to blame or the fans were. probably both. who first ? feck knows.

The problem was the layout of the ground - there was insufficient signage to direct people to side pens, and upon going through the 7 turnstiles the only obvious route to take was the tunnel to the two central pens. The side pens were indeed 'empty' by comparison.

Turnstiles A-G are the 7 for the Leppings Lane end here - the tunnel is the only obvious route to the terraces, but it only leads to the central two pens.

In a book at home I've got a good first-hand description of the scene faced when coming through these terraces by someone who'd been to the ground before, and knew the 'hidden' ways to make the other pens. He returned to Hillsborough for the semi-final and knew to avoid it. His mate, who he got split up from, didn't. I'll dig it up when I get back from work this evening.

BWFC_Insane · Post by **BWFC_Insane** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:25 pm

Fooking hell.

Lets just say that Liverpool fans are totally blameless, the best fans in the fooking world, have never done owt wrong, Anfield and Liverpool aren't dumps,
and that Hillsborough was entirely the fault of the authorities and the Sun newspaper.

There are you happy now?

Can we just leave it where it belongs? In the past?

a1 · Post by a1 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:30 pm

blurred wrote:

Turnstiles A-G are the 7 for the Leppings Lane end here - the tunnel is the only obvious route to the terraces, but it only leads to the central two pens.

In a book at home I've got a good first-hand description of the scene faced when coming through these terraces by someone who'd been to the ground before, and knew the 'hidden' ways to make the other pens. He returned to Hillsborough for the semi-final and knew to avoid it. His mate, who he got split up from, didn't. I'll dig it up when I get back from work this evening.

i'm not buying the 'the pens were empty' it (the entire end) looked totally ram packed. utterly "theres more folk in than we've sold tickets for it" ram packed.

i thought the pens' were locked up / the turnstiles wont let them in. not folk not makin the right turns. the pens mightve had side gates that "christopher eccleston" couldve unlocked had someone thrown him the key, but its already gone to shit and 'in reality' it'd not get done like that or it'll be 50 minutes before the caretaker's got to it.

as i said old shit you cant change, going over it again and again is a waste of time , money and effort. the stories about it are always different (as i mentioned i thought the turnstyles were broken) . its done. its not nice. but imo it'd be best to lay it away.

play the match on 'whatever day' . might be 'cathartic' (or whatever that word is).

bolton do with 'theirs'.

blurred · Post by **blurred** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:49 pm

a1 wrote:i'm not buying the 'the pens were empty' it (the entire end) looked totally ram packed. utterly "theres more folk in than we've sold tickets for it" ram packed.

Don't buy it all you like, but the HSE disagree with you.

This photo (the first I could come across) shows something

People are milling around on the pitch, spilling out from the central pens, yet you can clearly see concrete floor and lots of gaps in the nearest pen to the camera. People in there could move around easily. That's not a terrace in the typical old school style. That's comparatively empty. Compared to people being crushed to death in the central pens.

a1 wrote:i thought the pens' were locked up / the turnstiles wont let them in. not folk not makin the right turns. the pens mightve had side gates that "christopher eccleston" couldve unlocked had someone thrown him the key, but its already gone to shit and 'in reality' it'd not get done like that or it'll be 50 minutes before the caretaker's got to it.

I have no idea really what you're talking about. Pens were locked up - police didn't open the gates at the front onto the pitch. The turnstiles weren't numerous enough to let people in, which resulted in the inevitable backlog outside and the opening of the gate just before kick off. People didn't make 'the right turns' inside the ground, because it was poorly laid out/signed and there was no police control to direct people away from the central pens, which were already full.

a1 wrote:as i said old shit you cant change, going over it again and again is a waste of time , money and effort. the stories about it are always different (as i mentioned i thought the turnstyles were broken) . its done. its not nice. but imo it'd be best to lay it away.

What turnstiles were broken? What is it that you're going on about?

a1 wrote:play the match on 'whatever day' . might be 'cathartic' (or whatever that word is).

bolton do with 'theirs'.

Bradford don't with theirs. We'd rather not on ours. It's still fresh in the memory of lots and lots of fans who attend Anfield, some of whom I count as friends. Who knows, when it's 60 odd years after the fact and nobody who was there is still going to the game then perhaps the strength of feeling won't be the same, but I don't see a problem with not playing a game on the anniversary of the biggest stadium disaster in British football history. If Bolton wanted to avoid playing on 9th March then that'd be fine by me, but Liverpool have established an annual memorial service on the anniversary each year. Bradford's board came out relatively recently and said that they would never play on 11th May, and fair play to them for that.

Bruce Rioja · Post by **Bruce Rioja** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:59 pm

blurred wrote:The problem was the layout of the ground - there was insufficient signage to direct people to side pens, and upon going through the 7 turnstiles the only obvious route to take was the tunnel to the two central pens.

Hmm, not a system that seems to have completely baffled anyone else at Hillsborough, ever!

Also, wasn't the problem the policing, the last time you were on about this?

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Hillsborough piece in The Observer on Sunday

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