Hillsborough piece in The Observer on Sunday

[blurred]

I like to point out information to people who may not have read it, so that they may become informed in their opinions (as quite often when speaking to people about this, even Liverpool fans, I come across people who aren't aware of a great deal of what happened on April 15th '89). Unsurprisingly this is something that I care about, and believe is relevant to football fans in general. I know there are some who will be more entrenched in their views than others, but it's all 'General Footie' at the end of the day, and of a timely nature given the upcoming anniversary.

[wovlad]

Taken from http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009 ... -liverpool

Unanswered questions
The cause of the Hillsborough disaster - police mismanagement of the crowd - was established by Lord Justice Taylor in his report published just four months afterwards, in August 1989. Yet 20 years on, key questions remain unanswered about the disaster's aftermath.

1 What, in detail, happened after 3:15pm on the day of the disaster?

2 Could more people have been saved if the response to the disaster had been better co-ordinated?

3 Who removed two CCTV video tapes from the locked control room at Hillsborough on the night of the disaster?

4 Why was nobody identified to have removed them, and what investigation was mounted?

5 Which South Yorkshire police officers worked in the unit that vetted police statements before they went to Taylor and the inquest?

6 Who gave the orders for them to do so and what was the stated intention of those orders?

7 Are the documents lodged by order of the government in the House of Lords library a complete archive of South Yorkshire police's Hillsborough documents?

8 What was Det Supt Stanley Beechey, a former head of the West Midlands serious crime squad, doing on the Hillsborough investigation while he had been placed on "non-operational duties"?

You could argue these are 8 reason why there should be a new enquiry

[Traf]

Conspiracy theories are everywhere.

I was there that day and lost a cousin. I'll never forget it.
The role of hundreds of drunken Liverpool "fans" shouldn't be forgotten either.

I'm not trying to be controversial, I'm just saying that when blame is apportioned, the Liverpool fans need to look closer to home than they'd like to admit and/or want to..

[Worthy4England]

You could also point out, that for some reason, Heysel never had any sort of inquiry.

Given that the same Club was involved in both incidents, I would have thought that the clamour - from the saem set of supporters - to have an inquiry about "what went wrong" at Heysel would be just as strong as the pressing need to find "what went wrong" at Hillsborough.

Strangely it's not.

[Prufrock]

You could also point out, that for some reason, Heysel never had any sort of inquiry.

Given that the same Club was involved in both incidents, I would have thought that the clamour - from the saem set of supporters - to have an inquiry about "what went wrong" at Heysel would be just as strong as the pressing need to find "what went wrong" at Hillsborough.

Strangely it's not.

This for me sums up why Liverpool and their mourning culture pisses folk off. Nobody in their right mind thinks Hillsbrough is unimportant or inconsequential. It was a great tragedy and must be horrific for all involved and affected. I also understand why people want 'justice' as they see it. What I don't understand is why we dont see 25 documentaries a year on May 11th, for the 56 who died in the Bradford fire, or any other major tragedy. The only other one that comes close to the media coverage is Munich, and their fans are a bunch of c*nts too. They always have to be in the media as the victim, the world against them.

You bring up Heysel, I have still never got a straight answer from a Liverpool fan when I asked how Liverpool expected to be forgiven a few years ago when they played Juventus. There was a mosaic on the pitch before the game, to which a lot of Juve fans turned their back. I have even heard some Liverpool fans describe the Juve fans as pathetic. They were pathetic for not forgiving something which fans of Liverpool actually caused, but it's OK to boycott a fecking newspaper, which ran a grossly inaccurate story, yet one which they believed to be true at the time, and similar to stories in many other papers that day as well? A newspaper which has since apologised massively, and where the editor is no longer the guy who ran the story. Boris Johnson was right.

[Lord Kangana]

I once met Gabby Yorath.

She cited the Bradford fire as the reason she should leave by a restricted fire exit, that for obvious reasons, was only usuable in an emergency. She was tw*tted at the time.

I've often thought she deserves to burn in hell just for mentioning it so frivolously. So you do hear about it now and then.

[Verbal]

What did Boris Johnson say, Pru?

[William the White]

You could also point out, that for some reason, Heysel never had any sort of inquiry.

Given that the same Club was involved in both incidents, I would have thought that the clamour - from the saem set of supporters - to have an inquiry about "what went wrong" at Heysel would be just as strong as the pressing need to find "what went wrong" at Hillsborough.

Strangely it's not.

This for me sums up why Liverpool and their mourning culture pisses folk off. Nobody in their right mind thinks Hillsbrough is unimportant or inconsequential. It was a great tragedy and must be horrific for all involved and affected. I also understand why people want 'justice' as they see it. What I don't understand is why we dont see 25 documentaries a year on May 11th, for the 56 who died in the Bradford fire, or any other major tragedy. The only other one that comes close to the media coverage is Munich, and their fans are a bunch of c*nts too. They always have to be in the media as the victim, the world against them.

You bring up Heysel, I have still never got a straight answer from a Liverpool fan when I asked how Liverpool expected to be forgiven a few years ago when they played Juventus. There was a mosaic on the pitch before the game, to which a lot of Juve fans turned their back. I have even heard some Liverpool fans describe the Juve fans as pathetic. They were pathetic for not forgiving something which fans of Liverpool actually caused, but it's OK to boycott a fecking newspaper, which ran a grossly inaccurate story, yet one which they believed to be true at the time, and similar to stories in many other papers that day as well? A newspaper which has since apologised massively, and where the editor is no longer the guy who ran the story. Boris Johnson was right.

There are some things about which it is impossible to suspend disbelief...

[Harry Genshaw]

Some of the moronic comments on this subject have been truly depressing.

I keep reading that 'lessons have been learnt'. People died due to Police incompetence and then the victims themselves were blamed. From Hillsborough to Stockwell Tube station what lessons have been learnt exactly?

I must have missed the 25 documentarys on Hillsborough over the last 12 months but safe to say if any of my relatives had been killed there I'd still be wanting to hear the truth about it in a fresh inquiry now, even if I'd long ago given up hope of ever getting any justice.

I wish the families every success in their fight for justice, after all as footy fans their fight is our fight.

RIP

[Prufrock]

What did Boris Johnson say, Pru?

Twere back when he was editor of the Spectator, and when Ken Bigley had been executed in Iraq (I think it was Iraq). He wrote an editorial about the mourning culture of Liverpool.

From a BBC piece about the uproar he caused:

"The article, in the issue dated 16 October, says people in Liverpool "cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance about the rest of society".

It says Liverpudlians "wallow" in their "victim status", adding it is part of the "deeply unattractive psyche" of many in the city.

The article goes on to say Ken Bigley's brother Paul was wrong to say the prime minister has "blood on his hands".

It also says Mr Bigley took a risk by working in Iraq against the advice of the Foreign Office, and "his motives and misjudgements... should, without lessening sympathy for him and his family, temper the outpouring of sentimentality in which many have engaged for him"

As a city they have a massive chip on their shoulder, and as somebody pointed out on here a few weeks ago, so should have a black armband instaled as a permanent detail on their kit.

[Prufrock]

You could also point out, that for some reason, Heysel never had any sort of inquiry.

Given that the same Club was involved in both incidents, I would have thought that the clamour - from the saem set of supporters - to have an inquiry about "what went wrong" at Heysel would be just as strong as the pressing need to find "what went wrong" at Hillsborough.

Strangely it's not.

This for me sums up why Liverpool and their mourning culture pisses folk off. Nobody in their right mind thinks Hillsbrough is unimportant or inconsequential. It was a great tragedy and must be horrific for all involved and affected. I also understand why people want 'justice' as they see it. What I don't understand is why we dont see 25 documentaries a year on May 11th, for the 56 who died in the Bradford fire, or any other major tragedy. The only other one that comes close to the media coverage is Munich, and their fans are a bunch of c*nts too. They always have to be in the media as the victim, the world against them.

You bring up Heysel, I have still never got a straight answer from a Liverpool fan when I asked how Liverpool expected to be forgiven a few years ago when they played Juventus. There was a mosaic on the pitch before the game, to which a lot of Juve fans turned their back. I have even heard some Liverpool fans describe the Juve fans as pathetic. They were pathetic for not forgiving something which fans of Liverpool actually caused, but it's OK to boycott a fecking newspaper, which ran a grossly inaccurate story, yet one which they believed to be true at the time, and similar to stories in many other papers that day as well? A newspaper which has since apologised massively, and where the editor is no longer the guy who ran the story. Boris Johnson was right.

There are some things about which it is impossible to suspend disbelief...

Nah, he talks a lot of sense when he's not talking about politics. I like Boris, it's just I think it would be lunacy to put him in charge of something important.

[Lord Kangana]

Boris should have done us all a favour and offered to swap himself for Mr Bigley.

[William the White]

So, pru, give us some examples of him 'talking sense when not talking about politics...'

I'm - genuinely - curious...

though anyone seeing him at the Beijing closing ceremony knows that blondes can't wave flags...

[Prufrock]

Some of the moronic comments on this subject have been truly depressing.

I keep reading that 'lessons have been learnt'. People died due to Police incompetence and then the victims themselves were blamed. From Hillsborough to Stockwell Tube station what lessons have been learnt exactly?

I must have missed the 25 documentarys on Hillsborough over the last 12 months but safe to say if any of my relatives had been killed there I'd still be wanting to hear the truth about it in a fresh inquiry now, even if I'd long ago given up hope of ever getting any justice.

I wish the families every success in their fight for justice, after all as footy fans their fight is our fight.

RIP

No-one is denying it was a tragedy, but is it really worthy of the huge coverage it gets every year? By that I don't seek to lessen the tragedy of Hillsbrough, more point out the fact there are many other just as tragic things that don't get the coverage. Perhaps it just seems that way because it is the 20th anniversairy, but every year I wonder the same thing. Hillsbrough isn't really my main point though when talking about the city though. For all I think it gets a disproportianate amount of coverage I can see why it is still very relevant to a lot of people, and a lot of people want answers to horrible questions. It's mor ethe fact every time anything bad happens to anyone vaguely scouse the whole city comes out crying on camera and tying ribbons to show how they're all being picked on. I said Boris Johnson was right. Some of what he wrote was utter b*llshit, but the comment by Ken Bigley's brother that Tony Blair had blood on his hands sums up their pathetic perrenial victim status.

[Prufrock]

So, pru, give us some examples of him 'talking sense when not talking about politics...'

I'm - genuinely - curious...

though anyone seeing him at the Beijing closing ceremony knows that blondes can't wave flags...

Well by everthing except pollitics, I basically just meant classics. And I guess I'm biased about that as he tends to say they are good.

You can't dispute how briliant he is herethough!

I don't believe he is a real person though. He must be a comedian seeing if people will fall for the fact this highly intelligent, yet bumbling gaffe prone idiot could actually become mayor. I still can't believe he won, and I still can't believe how many of my friends at one of the top unis in the country actually voted for him.

[William the White]

So, pru, give us some examples of him 'talking sense when not talking about politics...'

I'm - genuinely - curious...

though anyone seeing him at the Beijing closing ceremony knows that blondes can't wave flags...

Well by everthing except pollitics, I basically just meant classics. And I guess I'm biased about that as he tends to say they are good.

You can't dispute how briliant he is herethough!

I don't believe he is a real person though. He must be a comedian seeing if people will fall for the fact this highly intelligent, yet bumbling gaffe prone idiot could actually become mayor. I still can't believe he won, and I still can't believe how many of my friends at one of the top unis in the country actually voted for him.

Like Latin, Greek you mean? Go on - give some examples of him being good at those...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

So, pru, give us some examples of him 'talking sense when not talking about politics...'

I'm - genuinely - curious...

though anyone seeing him at the Beijing closing ceremony knows that blondes can't wave flags...

Agree with Pru - most of his broadcasts/books are spot on, even if he is more of a popularizer than a serious academic.

Off the top of my head, I enjoyed his documentaries on the 'Dream of Rome' and on 'Holy War and Conquest'.

[mofgimmers]

I've said this before on this thread, but it's clearly been lost in the quagmire of absolute sh!t.

This attitude that the Liverpool fans are all boo-hoo-hooing is amazing. They're aggrieved at the loss of nearly 100 people from their community, be it immediate or just by being a part of the football club. The amount of moaning and whining that went on from our fans in the events that unfolded around the Boro cup final suggests that we're as bad as anyone. The amount of people handing in their season tickets over Megson's tenure...

We don't know heartache as a football club.

And to all those bringing up Heysel... jesus wept... how childish do you want to be? Are you trying to show off how hard you are in front of the lads of the board? Hooliganism isn't nearly the same thing as the police service not doing their job and people dying. Never mind the fact that a whole bunch of Liverpool fans were sent down for manslaughter and all British clubs were banned from Europe.

I can't believe that I've taken the bait of the new site troll either.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Conspiracy theories are everywhere.

I was there that day and lost a cousin. I'll never forget it.
The role of hundreds of drunken Liverpool "fans" shouldn't be forgotten either.

I'm not trying to be controversial, I'm just saying that when blame is apportioned, the Liverpool fans need to look closer to home than they'd like to admit and/or want to..

Well, of course it's obvious to any objective observer that the actual fatal force was produced by Liverpool fans pushing other Liverpool fans in one big scrum.

But to talk about this side of the blame equation is heresy.

Yes the police should have done better, but they learned lessons, just like football fans, most of whom now wouldn't dream of pushing in an enclosed space.

There were lots of factors that combined to produce a horrible, tragic accident. It's the lust for blame, recriminations and retribution that I don't get.

[Traf]

We grieved as a family and have since moved on.