The Great Art Debate

[William the White]

Not so. I may watch it, I may like it. I just haven't done so yet. I'm just a bit startled at what The Royal Academy is accepting as art these days. I think it all started when I passed a building site and saw the foundations of a house room laid out; a pile of housebricks in a rectangle. When the same thing appeared in a room at the RA as some great artwork I though Seddons had gone all artistic and the RA gone mad.

I don't think this ever happened. Really. _________________
Who can explain it, who can tell you why? Fools give you reasons, wise men never try.

Well, it did. It was actually the Tate Gallery in 1976. 120 bricks as minimalist art:

http://www.tate.org.uk/archivejourneys/ ... public.htm

So it didn't happen, then... The RA never went mad?... just remained a bit boring?

Oh - I saw it at the Tate - it was there for ages... The controversy did the gallery a lot of good, allegedly... About that time two 'performance artists' got a grant from the Arts Council to carry a plank around the South of england - for about a month IIRC. That got the tabloids talking also...

And either had whatsoever to do with art though? Did Tracy Emin do the bed thing for the same reason? Surely the argument is about what is art, not publicity stunts?[/quote]

Tango - the bricks are one of the most talked about works of art in British history - and the planks of the South also filled many column inches in the mass-circulation press. How rarely works of art get that kind of attention.

[ratbert]

Most of what's under discussion here is 'static' art. What about video art (is that just film?) or performance art (is that just dance)?

[William the White]

Most of what's under discussion here is 'static' art. What about video art (is that just film?) or performance art (is that just dance)?

Video art is very common these days - and is taught in University Art Depts - it has connections with film, obviously, but rarely has a developed and unfolding narrative. It often seeks to make the familiar strange. I've seen some good, disturbing work, and some real banality.

Performance art is rarely, if ever, dance, though stylised movement is not uncommon. Again it will aim to make strange, sometimes puzzle or shock. Narrative will be obscure, erratic. I'm not keen myself, but I know people who are intrigued and engaged by it (my partner, for one - mostly i try and avoid it).

[thebish]

Painting wise - I love the impressionists - and particularly Waterhouse's Lady of Shalott - wow!




but then I also love Beryl Cook (so make of that what you will!)



as for category - I'm more of a portrait than a landscape man - favourite London gallery is the National Portrait Gallery

I love Ruskin Spear's Harold Wilson...



and Maggi Hambling's Max Wall



and Cecil Beaton's Twiggy...



the last is obviously a photo - and if photos are allowed as art - then I love a lot of the French photographers - like Robert Doisneau



on an entirely different theme.... religiously meditatively speaking - I am often moved by stuff like Francisco de Zurbaran's, Agnus Dei




in other words - I'm quite eclectic in my tastes - I have a broad enough scope to be moved by "modern" and "ancient" art - the power of a piece to move me is not determined by the medium or the age in which it was created....

Turner never moved me - nor Stubbs and his horses.... but (inexplicably) a giant Rothko did in the Tate Modern...

[thebish]

Ok, so we have had some discussion about Emin and her ilk, and whether or not their work has any merit at all, with a taxing diversion along the way.

Let's go to a simpler question then and get people to offer examples of what they like.


I know the contents of Liverpool's Walker Art Gallery quite well - a fairly small, manageable place, with a decent rage of paintings, so I'll pick out some of my favourites (and lay my incredibly fusty taste on the line) and perhaps others will do the same from with paintings they know.

First up:

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walk ... index.aspx

there used to be a big print of that up in the maternity suite of Hartlepool General Hospital where my 3 kids were born - which (for the general population of Hartelpool at the time) was strangely apt!

[ratbert]

Most of what's under discussion here is 'static' art. What about video art (is that just film?) or performance art (is that just dance)?

Video art is very common these days - and is taught in University Art Depts - it has connections with film, obviously, but rarely has a developed and unfolding narrative. It often seeks to make the familiar strange. I've seen some good, disturbing work, and some real banality.

The lines between film/art frequently get blurred these days. Much of Derek Jarman's work can be called art rather than film, but is closer to the former than the latter; then there's Peter Greenaway of the same ilk - narrative film, but with imagery more associated with art; and most boundary-straddling of all, Matthew Barney's extraordinary Cremaster Cycle (details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremaster_Cycle ). As the films were released theatrically (not as part of a gallery installation), and are available on DVD, they count as cinema despite their content (IMO) but Barney's associated art projects place it in a different context to the two directors I just mentioned.

Performance art is rarely, if ever, dance, though stylised movement is not uncommon. Again it will aim to make strange, sometimes puzzle or shock. Narrative will be obscure, erratic. I'm not keen myself, but I know people who are intrigued and engaged by it (my partner, for one - mostly i try and avoid it).

I present Michael Clark as evidence of art/performance boundary flirting, especially 'I am Kurious Oranj' (featuring the mighty Fall).

[TANGODANCER]

I'd happily have The Lady of Shalott over my fireplace Bish, which leads to a question: Appreciating great paintings is one thing, but what would you be happy looking at every day? A copy of this hangs over my fireplace, and has done for quite a few years:

[Bruno]

Does that massive SAMPLE thing not put you off?

[thebish]

I'd happily have The Lady of Shalott over my fireplace Bish, which leads to a question: Appreciating great paintings is one thing, but what would you be happy looking at every day? A copy of this hangs over my fireplace, and has done for quite a few years:

I thought you said "Spherical Movement" hung over your fireplace - or are you posh and have TWO fireplaces!!

over my fireplace is the Lady of Shalott (and other impressionists in the living room)

in my hallway are a pair of paintings by a German artist - it might be Sieger Koder - but I may be wrong - prints/posters that I framed (apologies for the poor photos!)

a Last Supper:



and a Nativity:



which I happily walk past several times every day.

also in the hallway is a large and very detailed cross-stitch that my missus did (over three years) of this Last Supper - which IS Sieger Koder...

[thebish]

I'd happily have The Lady of Shalott over my fireplace Bish, which leads to a question: Appreciating great paintings is one thing, but what would you be happy looking at every day? A copy of this hangs over my fireplace, and has done for quite a few years:

ahhh - understood Tango - you like boobies!

[TANGODANCER]

Russell Flint is one of the finest painters of flesh ever in watercolour, and yes, I have two fireplaces (although both are just lightweight structures, as we're all electric.) I have two other pictures of French Gypsy girls in the living room (a favourite topic of WRF.) The rest are currently stacked atop a wardrobe.

Nice work by your wife.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walk ... index.aspx

there used to be a big print of that up in the maternity suite of Hartlepool General Hospital where my 3 kids were born - which (for the general population of Hartelpool at the time) was strangely apt!

Brilliant.

Some good offerings so far - I actually prefer this kind of discussion to scrapping over Emin and the other installation merchants.

I like those from Velazquez William, though possibly an example of the sort of paintings that are to be appreciated in a gallery, rather than the kind of thing one would hang at home (I know, I know, would that we had the cash to choose!). I quite like those dark paintings that evoke the dimly lit world that people lived in before Edison and his mates got going. Reminds me a little bit of another one I like at the Walker by Joseph Wright of Derby:

ahhh - understood Tango - you like boobies!

And yes, you can't beat a bit of artistic soft porn.

The mind boogles at this scene, "A Summer Night" by Albert Moore, even if his models aren't up to much...

Painting wise - I love the impressionists - and particularly Waterhouse's Lady of Shalott - wow!

in other words - I'm quite eclectic in my tastes - I have a broad enough scope to be moved by "modern" and "ancient" art - the power of a piece to move me is not determined by the medium or the age in which it was created....

Turner never moved me - nor Stubbs and his horses.... but (inexplicably) a giant Rothko did in the Tate Modern...

I think I share some of your tastes, even if I'm not a fan of those German prints you have in your house. Definitely not a Turner fan - I just don't see the attraction in those hazy, washed out landscapes at all, though I quite like a couple of his stormy maritime scenes.

I'm probably straying in a minefield I'm ill-equipped to survive here, but would you call Waterhouse an impressionist? To my uneducated eye, his work seems quite different from Monet, Renoir, Sisley etc.

I'd put him more with the Pre-Raphaelites that Tango has expressed some admiration for.

A few good examples in Liverpool include:

Lorenzo and Isabella by Millais:



Dante's Dream by Rossetti:



I like this one of Dante and Beatrice with the Ponte Vecchio in the background by Holiday:



I suppose I like a bit of fantasy in my paintings and some transportation to some far off place or time, and this is why I don't like the mnudane, parochial scenes of Stubbs or Constable etc

Looking further afield than Liverpool, I like the grand painting of Jacques Louis David (himself following in Poussin's footsteps), of which there is a cracking collection in the Louvre, including:

Leonidas at Thermopylae (he of "Spartans, what is your profession?!" fame...)



Along with the Intervention of the Sabine Women, The Coronation of Napoleon, Napoleon at the Saint Bernard etc


Anyway, that will do for now... I appreciate I should be inside playing Football Manager or whatever.

[thebish]

I'm probably straying in a minefield I'm ill-equipped to survive here, but would you call Waterhouse an impressionist? To my uneducated eye, his work seems quite different from Monet, Renoir, Sisley etc.

I'd put him more with the Pre-Raphaelites that Tango has expressed some admiration for.

doh! Indeed - I have no idea why I wrote "Impressionist" when he is quite clearly amongst the famous Pre-Raphaelites... senior moment!!

I quite like those dark paintings that evoke the dimly lit world that people lived in before Edison and his mates got going.

me too. In fact - I'm not that big a Van Gogh fan - famous or not, the sunflowers don't do much for me... but I do love his lithographs - especially The Potato Eaters:



and The Digger..


he also did a nude lithograph - it's got boobies in it, so Tango will enjoy...



(the subject is Sien Hoornik, a pregnant prostitute that Van Gogh took in and cared for.)

[TANGODANCER]

You should have a look at William Russel Flint's stuff Mummy. He did quite a bit in the Pre-Rapealite style.

[thebish]

of the "masters" - I have always loved Rembrandt's "Prodigal Son" painting...



the more you look - the more there is in it...

notice for instance the father's hands - one kind of rough-workworn and male - the other delicate and female? some say this is Rembrandt expressing an idea of the motherhood and fatherhood of God....

[TANGODANCER]

Here's one of Flint's Pre Raphaelite style works:

[Worthy4England]

notice for instance the father's hands - one kind of rough-workworn and male - the other delicate and female? some say this is Rembrandt expressing an idea of the motherhood and fatherhood of God....

You sure he wasn't just "bad" at doing hands?

Canaletto is an artist I admire.





My great (great) grandaddy exhibited his paintings at the Walker in July 1881. I have a certificate from the Lord Mayor somewhere and quite a few of his paintings hung around the house...

[thebish]

notice for instance the father's hands - one kind of rough-workworn and male - the other delicate and female? some say this is Rembrandt expressing an idea of the motherhood and fatherhood of God....

You sure he wasn't just "bad" at doing hands?

heaven forfend!!

Canaletto is an artist I admire.

My great (great) grandaddy exhibited his paintings at the Walker in July 1881. I have a certificate from the Lord Mayor somewhere and quite a few of his paintings hung around the house...

an artistic impressario-family in our midst!

Canaletto always reminds me a bit of L S Lowry (only posher!)

I quite like this one though...



has a kind of surreal feel to it - the church dome is a bit wonky - and the boats don't seem to make any impression on the water - as if the water is solid - or frozen in time... and the colours are fantastic

[thebish]

Here's one of Flint's Pre Raphaelite style works:

blimey! that's a bit garish for my personal taste - and the way it is framed makes the painting appear very cramped (like a badly-cropped photo) - I think I'd feel stressed looking at that all day....

[William the White]

This is proving very enjoyable...

Bish's selection I really like - the rembrandt, obviously, which is very moving, but i loved the Nativity and the Last Supper also, made me grin.

Worthy's from the Nat Portrait Gallery also very engaging

Not that taken by mummy's lot, i take the point about the mini-dramas, just not my taste...

But hey, anything is tons better than that pre-Raphaelite mince... Like pouring sugar on a loose filling...

*Ducks* as he sees Tango whirling across the ballroom floor...