The Great Art Debate

[TANGODANCER]

I can relate to the intrusion angle Mummy. I once stood looking at the Tomb of Columbus in Sevilla Cathedral: Four giant figures supporting the bier. The whole moment took a serious downturn when a bloke and his girl appeared and leaned against one of the figures. She threw her leg round him and they started grinning whilst a friend captured the "historic" moment on film. Just one of several crowd-spoiling incidents.

A bunch of German tourists in straw hats etc in Granada's Royal Chapel, also decided that the numerous notices sayin "No flash bulbs please" in several languages didn't apply to them and kept up a show to rival Blackpool illuminations.

[William the White]

I can relate to the intrusion angle Mummy. I once stood looking at the Tomb of Columbus in Sevilla Cathedral: Four giant figures supporting the bier. The whole moment took a serious downturn when a bloke and his girl appeared and leaned against one of the figures. She threw her leg round him and they started grinning whilst a friend captured the "historic" moment on film. Just one of several crowd-spoiling incidents.

A bunch of German tourists in straw hats etc in Granada's Royal Chapel, also decided that the numerous notices sayin "No flash bulbs please" in several languages didn't apply to them and kept up a show to rival Blackpool illuminations.

Don't you think that Columbus memorial is totally gross, though? Looks like something concocted by a Disney reject with a hangover?

And Sevilla cathedral is testimony to conspicious consumption and spanish/catholic idolatry - all those chapels along the walls erected with money from the rape and pillage of south america and all those ornate saints testifying to the 'virtues' of the rapists and pillagers... Ornate grotesquerie on a grand scale. I loathed and admired it in equal proportions. Though Sevilla one of the truly great cities of spain and the world. Going back there in a couple of years - or so is the plan!

Do you mean the Ferdinand and Isabella tomb in Granada cathedral? I can't remember a specific royal chapel. But, yeah, german tourists rival brit ones for insensitive behaviour. And, Tango, don't you think the crucifixion behind the altar in Granada Cathedral and the paintings of the horrific martydoms of Catholic saints around the wall show a particularly spanish catholic obsession with pain and death. One visit there, 27 years ago, and i sort of knew where the Inquisition came from.

[Zulus Thousand of em]

And, Tango, don't you think the crucifixion behind the altar in Granada Cathedral and the paintings of the horrific martydoms of Catholic saints around the wall show a particularly spanish catholic obsession with pain and death. One visit there, 27 years ago, and i sort of knew where the Inquisition came from.

The English Catholic and Protestant Martyrs would probably testify that an obsession with pain and death was not a particularly Spanish Catholic obsession, William. Hanging, drawing and quartering was the fate of most of them. Others were burned alive at the stake. I know a bit about the Catholic martyrs, many of whom hailed from Lancashire. To my shame I know less about the Protestant martyrs. I do know that they suffered equally for their faith.

When you read of the pain and suffering inflicted on individuals around Europe in those times it makes you question humanity. All done in the name of God too.

[Bruce Rioja]

You want bloody burning, you lot, for your horrific school blazers. Brown? Purple? Good grief!

[Zulus Thousand of em]

You want bloody burning, you lot, for your horrific school blazers. Brown? Purple? Good grief!

I used to have a very sharp brown number, I'll have you know! My brother looked simply divine in purple.

[TANGODANCER]

I can relate to the intrusion angle Mummy. I once stood looking at the Tomb of Columbus in Sevilla Cathedral: Four giant figures supporting the bier. The whole moment took a serious downturn when a bloke and his girl appeared and leaned against one of the figures. She threw her leg round him and they started grinning whilst a friend captured the "historic" moment on film. Just one of several crowd-spoiling incidents.

A bunch of German tourists in straw hats etc in Granada's Royal Chapel, also decided that the numerous notices sayin "No flash bulbs please" in several languages didn't apply to them and kept up a show to rival Blackpool illuminations.

Don't you think that Columbus memorial is totally gross, though? Looks like something concocted by a Disney reject with a hangover?

And Sevilla cathedral is testimony to conspicious consumption and spanish/catholic idolatry - all those chapels along the walls erected with money from the rape and pillage of south america and all those ornate saints testifying to the 'virtues' of the rapists and pillagers... Ornate grotesquerie on a grand scale. I loathed and admired it in equal proportions. Though Sevilla one of the truly great cities of spain and the world. Going back there in a couple of years - or so is the plan!

Do you mean the Ferdinand and Isabella tomb in Granada cathedral? I can't remember a specific royal chapel. But, yeah, german tourists rival brit ones for insensitive behaviour. And, Tango, don't you think the crucifixion behind the altar in Granada Cathedral and the paintings of the horrific martydoms of Catholic saints around the wall show a particularly spanish catholic obsession with pain and death. One visit there, 27 years ago, and i sort of knew where the Inquisition came from.

I'll reply later with the rest WTW, but it isn't Granada Cathedral itself, ( part of it) the building is called El Cappila Real (The Royal Chapel) and yes, it's where Ferdinand and Isabella and (if I remember rightly) their children and grandchildrn are buried. (the tiny coffins on view in the vaults below). Later....

http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/4128364.html

[Hoboh]

What's Willy Coyote doing on that second blokes belt????

Surely it must be a forgery?

Willy wern't round then!!!

[TANGODANCER]

And Sevilla cathedral is testimony to conspicious consumption and spanish/catholic idolatry - all those chapels along the walls erected with money from the rape and pillage of south america and all those ornate saints testifying to the 'virtues' of the rapists and pillagers... Ornate grotesquerie on a grand scale. I loathed and admired it in equal proportions. Though Sevilla one of the truly great cities of spain and the world. Going back there in a couple of years - or so is the plan!

Do you mean the Ferdinand and Isabella tomb in Granada cathedral? I can't remember a specific royal chapel. But, yeah, german tourists rival brit ones for insensitive behaviour. And, Tango, don't you think the crucifixion behind the altar in Granada Cathedral and the paintings of the horrific martydoms of Catholic saints around the wall show a particularly spanish catholic obsession with pain and death. One visit there, 27 years ago, and i sort of knew where the Inquisition came from.

Might just be WTW that after 800 years of Moorish Muslim occupation in a long-time Catholic country that the Cathedrals of Spain wanted their own religion back in evidence. Columbus also (regardless about the arguments about his nationality) set out on his monumental journey the same year (1492) that Granada, the last bastion of Moorish dominance in Spain, fell back into Spanish hands with Isabella as his mentor. Most history of the period was religion based, and the Spanish Catholics no worse than anyone else in brutality of the "eye for an eye" variety. But lets not make a religious argument out of an art debate hey?

[William the White]

And Sevilla cathedral is testimony to conspicious consumption and spanish/catholic idolatry - all those chapels along the walls erected with money from the rape and pillage of south america and all those ornate saints testifying to the 'virtues' of the rapists and pillagers... Ornate grotesquerie on a grand scale. I loathed and admired it in equal proportions. Though Sevilla one of the truly great cities of spain and the world. Going back there in a couple of years - or so is the plan!

Do you mean the Ferdinand and Isabella tomb in Granada cathedral? I can't remember a specific royal chapel. But, yeah, german tourists rival brit ones for insensitive behaviour. And, Tango, don't you think the crucifixion behind the altar in Granada Cathedral and the paintings of the horrific martydoms of Catholic saints around the wall show a particularly spanish catholic obsession with pain and death. One visit there, 27 years ago, and i sort of knew where the Inquisition came from.

Might just be WTW that after 800 years of Moorish Muslim occupation in a long-time Catholic country that the Cathedrals of Spain wanted their own religion back in evidence. Columbus also (regardless about the arguments about his nationality) set out on his monumental journey the same year (1492) that Granada, the last bastion of Moorish dominance in Spain, fell back into Spanish hands with Isabella as his mentor. Most history of the period was religion based, and the Spanish Catholics no worse than anyone else in brutality of the "eye for an eye" variety. But lets not make a religious argument out of an art debate hey?

Art inevitably emerges from the social circumstances of its production and, in some ways, reflects upon them... and that's all i'm saying here. nothing much to do with my views on religion other than as a social formation, part of the 'given circumstances' within which artists produce their work - in this case expressed as ornate idolatry and obsession with physical torture and pain that Catholicism historically displays, and particularly in Spain, inventor of the holy inquisition... Take it as an observation rather than a criticism...

[TANGODANCER]

In addition to the Rembrandt "Return of the Prodigal Son" that Bish posted, here's another very fine example by Esteban Murrillo, a Spanish artist who painted some of those saints in Sevilla Cathedral:

[William the White]

Proof of what a fantastic artist Rembrandt was.

[TANGODANCER]

Proof of what a fantastic artist Rembrandt was.

Undoubtedly, but "proof"? Are you referring to Murrillo?

[William the White]

Proof of what a fantastic artist Rembrandt was.

Undoubtedly, but "proof"? Are you referring to Murrillo?

Yep - i meant Rembrandt's painting was so much better... More focussed, more poignant, more truthful, less garish, less cluttered, less crammed with the story's trivia (fatted calf, for instance), more on its essential - the father, the son, the contrition, the forgiveness...

[Hoboh]

Proof of what a fantastic artist Rembrandt was.

Undoubtedly, but "proof"? Are you referring to Murrillo?

Yep - i meant Rembrandt's painting was so much better... More focussed, more poignant, more truthful, less garish, less cluttered, less crammed with the story's trivia (fatted calf, for instance), more on its essential - the father, the son, the contrition, the forgiveness...

I thought it was a begger waylaid a rich guy who had his servant bring him some clothes!

'strewth seems simple enough!!!

[thebish]

I'm not as often moved by religious art as I think I should be - and I think WtW has put his finger on it - it doesn't move me because it shouts oppression at me and the miappropriation of Christ for power, patronage and something else bad beginning with "p"!

the murillo doesn't move me - next to the Rembrandt it seems a bit patronising somehow - not 100% sure why - the cutesy dog certainly doesn't help and I don't think i need him to flagpole every nuance of the story - Rembrandt gets to the heart of it without needing to spell it out... still - subjective differences I suppose..

having said i am not often moved by religious art - of course there are many exceptions..

Rembrandt's less well known - but awesome "nunc dimittis" is one of them:



as is Georges de la Tour's "New Born Baby"



for something completely different - i am fascinated by Stanley Spencer



and I loved Wallinger's Ecce Homo (if sculpture is allowed)

[William the White]

And, Tango, don't you think the crucifixion behind the altar in Granada Cathedral and the paintings of the horrific martydoms of Catholic saints around the wall show a particularly spanish catholic obsession with pain and death. One visit there, 27 years ago, and i sort of knew where the Inquisition came from.

The English Catholic and Protestant Martyrs would probably testify that an obsession with pain and death was not a particularly Spanish Catholic obsession, William. Hanging, drawing and quartering was the fate of most of them. Others were burned alive at the stake. I know a bit about the Catholic martyrs, many of whom hailed from Lancashire. To my shame I know less about the Protestant martyrs. I do know that they suffered equally for their faith.

When you read of the pain and suffering inflicted on individuals around Europe in those times it makes you question humanity. All done in the name of God too.

Believe me - i know the vileness of religious zealotry infects many faiths, not just Catholicism. It's one of the things that makes me feel happy to be an atheist. But i think there is a particularly enduring strain of cruelty within spanish catholicism - with five centuries of the inquisition, the public burning of heretics, persistently, over centuries, in ceremonies called an auto da fe - an 'act of faith'... The church gave the spanish monarch the honorific they carried for hundreds of years as 'His Catholic Majesty'.

However, the main point I was making to Tango was the way this is reflected in spanish religious art in Sevilla cathedral, the Capillo Real in Granada and more generally... it is ornate, idolatrous and often sado-masochistic. This manifestation is cultural, I'd say, so not exclusively about spanish catholicism, and certainly not about catholicism as a religion, which has many other manifestations world-wide, though very few of them anything but reactionary. I make an exception for the 'liberation theology' of Latin America in the late 20th century.

I also said I both admired and loathed it. And would recommend visiting both venues whole-heartedly, especially if you fancy a laugh at the grotesquely tasteless memorial they erected to Columbus.

[TANGODANCER]

Proof of what a fantastic artist Rembrandt was.

Undoubtedly, but "proof"? Are you referring to Murrillo?

Yep - i meant Rembrandt's painting was so much better... More focussed, more poignant, more truthful, less garish, less
cluttered, less crammed with the story's trivia (fatted calf, for instance), more on its essential - the father, the son, the contrition, the forgiveness...

In which case, this by Pompeo Batoni does an even simpler job than Rembrandt. See, it's all a matter of personal preference
as I see it. Threee artists telling a story old before any of them were born. I can appreciate all three, I just don't classify
as better or best, just appreciate where they're coming from based on their respective talents and views of it.

[William the White]

Yes - it is a matter of personal preference - but that's only the beginning of the discussion, surely? Or there isn't a discussion at all... 'i like this' - 'i like that' - 'Whose round is it?'

So - referring to your latest prodigal son offering.

The Rembrandt still has it for me, and quite easily. apart from the greater compassion on the father's face, it is the one where they clearly meet as equals, though one is poorer than the other... The others give wealth and status and power to the father figure in a quite distinct way, these fathers have social position... So the story becomes - I interpret - one of submission to authority and authority being kind enough to accept and forgive... The Rembrandt is a human encounter of a more mundane, and, therefore, much richer type...

As you would say, tango, just my view...

[Prufrock]

And, Tango, don't you think the crucifixion behind the altar in Granada Cathedral and the paintings of the horrific martydoms of Catholic saints around the wall show a particularly spanish catholic obsession with pain and death. One visit there, 27 years ago, and i sort of knew where the Inquisition came from.

The English Catholic and Protestant Martyrs would probably testify that an obsession with pain and death was not a particularly Spanish Catholic obsession, William. Hanging, drawing and quartering was the fate of most of them. Others were burned alive at the stake. I know a bit about the Catholic martyrs, many of whom hailed from Lancashire. To my shame I know less about the Protestant martyrs. I do know that they suffered equally for their faith.

When you read of the pain and suffering inflicted on individuals around Europe in those times it makes you question humanity. All done in the name of God too.

Believe me - i know the vileness of religious zealotry infects many faiths, not just Catholicism. It's one of the things that makes me feel happy to be an atheist. But i think there is a particularly enduring strain of cruelty within spanish catholicism - with five centuries of the inquisition, the public burning of heretics, persistently, over centuries, in ceremonies called an auto da fe - an 'act of faith'... The church gave the spanish monarch the honorific they carried for hundreds of years as 'His Catholic Majesty'.

However, the main point I was making to Tango was the way this is reflected in spanish religious art in Sevilla cathedral, the Capillo Real in Granada and more generally... it is ornate, idolatrous and often sado-masochistic. This manifestation is cultural, I'd say, so not exclusively about spanish catholicism, and certainly not about catholicism as a religion, which has many other manifestations world-wide, though very few of them anything but reactionary. I make an exception for the 'liberation theology' of Latin America in the late 20th century.

I also said I both admired and loathed it. And would recommend visiting both venues whole-heartedly, especially if you fancy a laugh at the grotesquely tasteless memorial they erected to Columbus.

Ah the auto da fe, one of them in Candide, is literature allowed in here? Coz that is a fantastic, brilliantly written book. Made school fun and everything. Just think, fun happening in your favourite institution

[thebish]

Believe me - i know the vileness of religious zealotry infects many faiths, not just Catholicism. It's one of the things that makes me feel happy to be an atheist.

atheists too have a pretty decent track record of zealous violence - so don't be tooooooo happy!