The Great Art Debate

[thebish]

You may now take that brandy Bish.

I think I'll have a brandy and a lie-down!

'tis not the first time we have agreed, tango - and it won't be the last! William is allowed to be wrong sometimes

[Bruce Rioja]

You may now take that brandy Bish.

I think I'll have a brandy and a lie-down!

'tis not the first time we have agreed, tango - and it won't be the last! William is allowed to be wrong sometimes

Well, for what it's worth, I agree with William. Oh I don't doubt the artist's fine technique, but the colours used are gaudy and unnatural to the point of offence.

[thebish]

You may now take that brandy Bish.

I think I'll have a brandy and a lie-down!

'tis not the first time we have agreed, tango - and it won't be the last! William is allowed to be wrong sometimes

Well, for what it's worth, I agree with William. Oh I don't doubt the artist's fine technique, but the colours used are gaudy and unnatural to the point of offence.

that's quite a strong reaction! that's what is great about art - that you could actually be offended by it!

(maybe the artist's african colour-palette is strange to our western eyes? westerners often use the word "gaudy" to describe African art.)

also - what do you mean by "un-natural" colour?

[Bruce Rioja]

that's quite a strong reaction! that's what is great about art - that you could actually be offended by it!

(maybe the artist's african colour-palette is strange to our western eyes? westerners often use the word "gaudy" to describe African art.)

also - what do you mean by "un-natural" colour?

Good point. I've been doing some work with a company in Holland that manufacture ladies dresses and print fabrics for the African market http://www.vlisco.com/home and I feel similarly about the colours that they use. I think 'offensive' is a poor choice of word, and I apologise, but I feel, let's say uncomfortable. Yes, I suppose that the African colour-palette is indeed strange to our western eyes.

Un-natural? I mean I've never been in any environment where the brightness of those colours appear naturally, is all.

[thebish]

that's quite a strong reaction! that's what is great about art - that you could actually be offended by it!

(maybe the artist's african colour-palette is strange to our western eyes? westerners often use the word "gaudy" to describe African art.)

also - what do you mean by "un-natural" colour?

Good point. I've been doing some work with a company in Holland that manufacture ladies dresses and print fabrics for the African market http://www.vlisco.com/home and I feel similarly about the colours that they use. I think 'offensive' is a poor choice of word, and I apologise, but I feel, let's say uncomfortable. Yes, I suppose that the African colour-palette is indeed strange to our western eyes.

Un-natural? I mean I've never been in any environment where the brightness of those colours appear naturally, is all.

I'm not sure that this was the artist's intention - who knows? - but given that his subject is lit merely by the light of an angelic being - then to achieve the effect of un-natural light or brightness or colour may well be a good thing... after all - the occasion is far from "natural".

as for myself - I guess I would not have the same positive reacition to this picture without the actual theme and my devotional relationship to it - so I guess it is a bit unfair to compare my reaction to yours or William's.

I have a positive reaction to it - at least in part - because of the "human-ness" of it - but then that's because I am comparing it favourably to something else - which you are not...

most of the annunciation pictures I have seen are far from "human" - they seem like a cold and distant transactional transfer from God to mary - and mary is pictured as anything but ordinary...

(I disagree about the carpet with William - I like the rumpled carpet - the idea that not all is perfect and neat in this scenario)

I am comparing it favourably with pictures such as this which try to represent the same thing....



which is - frankly - horrible!

or this one by Crivelli - which looks like some kind of UFO encounter...




this is probably the best of its kind though....

[TANGODANCER]

The realism of the wife of a poor carpenter in a village in Nazareth tend to get overlooked somewhat in glorification Bish. Nothing in the life of Christ suggests otherwise than perfectly normal village life or perfectly normal village people. Those paintings are one aspect of art that gets totally carried away with itself in my view. Then again, this raises the question: is religion a factor in people not liking depictions of it in art or poetry regardless of it's quality or otherwise?

[Bruce Rioja]

is religion a factor in people not liking depictions of it in art or poetry regardless of it's quality or otherwise?

Good question that, Tango. See, I only judged 'the yellow one' by way of it being a painting, whereas the ones posted up by thebish, although for me being better paintings are, by way of dealing with the subject matter - fecking ridiculous (except for the last one )

[TANGODANCER]

I can't find a single painting of the Annunciation that portrays the message in a realistic fashion as the Bish's example does. This comes close, except for that ridiculous angel. No, I don't know what one looks like, I may not even ever see one,but I sure hope they don't look like that just in case I do. .

[William the White]

I really don't know the answer to this - and, I admit, my scepticism may make it difficult for me to take the annunciation seriously - but do you guys know of any equivalent to the bish's brilliant discovery of the brazilian crucifixion - which made me know for sure that christianity still had something to contribute to art (please don't misinterpret - I am not hostile to religious art, i can be swept away by it) - this post is getting very parenthetical - but has the annunciation been tackled by a recent artist with the vigour and courage of that crucifixion...

By the way, Tango, my reading of the painting is that there's no real vulnerability or bewilderment or fear in bish's painting (more's the pity). It is much too polite for that. Demure, quizzical, cool. A real lack of emotion. She seems far from frail to me - model for any new york agency.

I take it one way, you another. We read it with different eyes, different sensibilities. I really am not demanding you or anyone else thinks the same way as me. Can we put this element of our discussions to bed now?

[thebish]

I really don't know the answer to this - and, I admit, my scepticism may make it difficult for me to take the annunciation seriously - but do you guys know of any equivalent to the bish's brilliant discovery of the brazilian crucifixion - which made me know for sure that christianity still had something to contribute to art

There are some - none of them quite the brazilian crucifixion - I'll dig some out tomorrow....

but - as a taster - I have always had a soft spot for this one by Gottfried Helnwein..

[William the White]

I really don't know the answer to this - and, I admit, my scepticism may make it difficult for me to take the annunciation seriously - but do you guys know of any equivalent to the bish's brilliant discovery of the brazilian crucifixion - which made me know for sure that christianity still had something to contribute to art

There are some - none of them quite the gbrazilian crucifixion - I'll dig some out tomorrow....

but - as a taster - I have always had a soft spot for this one by Gottfried Helnwein..

I LOVE IT!!! Made me laugh out loud.

[TANGODANCER]

By the way, Tango, my reading of the painting is that there's no real vulnerability or bewilderment or fear in bish's painting (more's the pity). It is much too polite for that. Demure, quizzical, cool. A real lack of emotion. She seems far from frail to me - model for any new york agency.

I take it one way, you another. We read it with different eyes, different sensibilities. I really am not demanding you or anyone else thinks the same way as me. Can we put this element of our discussions to bed now?

Hey, can't we even fall out peacefully now?

Never was any malice in it WTW. I see things as I do, you as you do. I admire you for sticking to your guns, even when you're wrong.

[Dujon]

because I looked it out to connect with a poem by Madeleine L'Engle that I quotd on the poetry thread - about the Annunciation - I have been reaquainting myself with my favourite Annunciation painting - by African-American artist Henry Ossawa Tanner...

I really must revisit that image, thebish. I do have to wonder what H.O.T. was thinking when he created that image. Not that it is any of my business. Still 'n all: the inverted cross in the shadow of the flag (see later); the lewd gnome (or such) clawing its way up to her back whilst practising ballet steps; the rather oddly shaped hand sneaking up next her right leg; the equally odd flag draped along the side and top of her bed; a carpet hump!

So much to learn, so little time. No doubt I've missed some critical points but I can only do what I can.

[William the White]

By the way, Tango, my reading of the painting is that there's no real vulnerability or bewilderment or fear in bish's painting (more's the pity). It is much too polite for that. Demure, quizzical, cool. A real lack of emotion. She seems far from frail to me - model for any new york agency.

I take it one way, you another. We read it with different eyes, different sensibilities. I really am not demanding you or anyone else thinks the same way as me. Can we put this element of our discussions to bed now?

Hey, can't we even fall out peacefully now?

Never was any malice in it WTW. I see things as I do, you as you do. I admire you for sticking to your guns, even when you're wrong.

When was I ever wrong in my whole life

[TANGODANCER]

We'll obviously never reach agreement on a topic where religion is the motivation for art, and since no one knows how it would be to be crucified, representation is purely that. I'm not in favour of a lot of religious paintings or sculptures, especially modern ones that mock the subject, and there are a lot. I'm also not a Salvador Dali lover but I do think this captures the subject well enough. That said, artists are all different and paint things as they see them. A lot of religious paintings lose their interest (for me) in over glorification rather than reality. Even the Bible represents events in a believable way without that...... But that's another story not for here.

[thebish]

at one time, Christ of Saint John of the Cross hung (groan!) on every minister's study wall - at least it seemed that way - but I never understood why. It always seemed to me to be such a cold piece. people tell me it is serene - but try as I may - I cannot see it that way...

Dali was a bit weird (nowt wrong with that) - but I think the painting is too heavily restricted by an agenda - and (if i remember rightly) it was something to do with producing a trinitarian triangular feeling as the dominant shape of the painting.....

This is one of the rare occurences where I have actually seen the real thing - and I was more impressed than I had been with the prints - but I suspect it was as much the space in which it hung and the size - it still left me a bit cold, and would certainly never move me spiritually...

[thebish]

because I looked it out to connect with a poem by Madeleine L'Engle that I quotd on the poetry thread - about the Annunciation - I have been reaquainting myself with my favourite Annunciation painting - by African-American artist Henry Ossawa Tanner...

I really must revisit that image, thebish. I do have to wonder what H.O.T. was thinking when he created that image. Not that it is any of my business. Still 'n all: the inverted cross in the shadow of the flag (see later); the lewd gnome (or such) clawing its way up to her back whilst practising ballet steps; the rather oddly shaped hand sneaking up next her right leg; the equally odd flag draped along the side and top of her bed; a carpet hump!

So much to learn, so little time. No doubt I've missed some critical points but I can only do what I can.

I want what Dujon is smoking!

[William the White]

Tango - and bish - you can go back to p2 of this thread - if you have the patience - to see what I think of Dali...

I stand by my view that he was not fit to lick Picasso's shadow...

[TANGODANCER]

at one time, Christ of Saint John of the Cross hung (groan!) on every minister's study wall - at least it seemed that way - but I never understood why. It always seemed to me to be such a cold piece. people tell me it is serene - but try as I may - I cannot see it that way...

Dali was a bit weird (nowt wrong with that) - but I think the painting is too heavily restricted by an agenda - and (if i remember rightly) it was something to do with producing a trinitarian triangular feeling as the dominant shape of the painting.....
This is one of the rare occurences where I have actually seen the real thing - and I was more impressed than I had been with the prints - but I suspect it was as much the space in which it hung and the size - it still left me a bit cold, and would certainly never move me spiritually...

Was that Dali's description, or that of others? Also....do you see a face in the bottom right section of the painting, or is it just my immagination? I've never seen the original by the way.

[thebish]

Tango - and bish - you can go back to p2 of this thread - if you have the patience - to see what I think of Dali...

I stand by my view that he was not fit to lick Picasso's shadow...

not being a huge fan of either (except - as i think I said - of picasso's the potato pickers series..) I'm not gonna fight for either (though if there was one - I suspect you'd find both me and tango cheering for Mr P). I don't really like this very famous Dali that Tango posted though.. and lobster phones and long-legged elephants don't squeeze my box...

(the statues on the south side of Westmnister bridge are cool though!)