The Great Art Debate

[thebish]

Was that Dali's description, or that of others? Also....do you see a face in the bottom right section of the painting, or is it just my immagination? I've never seen the original by the way.

I could look it up - but I am fairly sure it was his - he told the story beghind the painting - being told in a vision to paint it like that....

[thebish]

at one time, Christ of Saint John of the Cross hung (groan!) on every minister's study wall - at least it seemed that way - but I never understood why. It always seemed to me to be such a cold piece. people tell me it is serene - but try as I may - I cannot see it that way...

Dali was a bit weird (nowt wrong with that) - but I think the painting is too heavily restricted by an agenda - and (if i remember rightly) it was something to do with producing a trinitarian triangular feeling as the dominant shape of the painting.....
This is one of the rare occurences where I have actually seen the real thing - and I was more impressed than I had been with the prints - but I suspect it was as much the space in which it hung and the size - it still left me a bit cold, and would certainly never move me spiritually...

Was that Dali's description, or that of others? Also....do you see a face in the bottom right section of the painting, or is it just my immagination? I've never seen the original by the way.

I think it's your imagination - but who could say for sure now Dali is dead? I just saw Owen Coyle in the clouds over Upminster though.... it's a sign of something...

[thebish]

I really don't know the answer to this - and, I admit, my scepticism may make it difficult for me to take the annunciation seriously - but do you guys know of any equivalent to the bish's brilliant discovery of the brazilian crucifixion...

there may well be others - but, obviously not being as "obvious" a theme as the crucifixion, they are few and far between. The only convincing art I have seen that doesn't have Mary as submissive or serenely calm about the whole idea - but (it seems) verging on some kind of mental breakdown - is this one by Matt Whitney...

[TANGODANCER]

All religious art, from necessity, is pure representation. Most often it is done to glorify without any visible emotion or expressionism (on the part of the subject). Whilst I certainly wouldn't want this on my wall, to me it's a brilliant example of what's missing in almost them all. Czar Ivan Grozny after killing his son. Ilya Repin 1873

[thebish]

All religious art, from necessity, is pure representation. Most often it is done to glorify without any visible emotion or expressionism (on the part of the subject).

I genuinely have no idea what this means - can you put it in layman's terms?


(I like the picture - btw - William won't cos the carpet is rumpled )

[TANGODANCER]

All religious art, from necessity, is pure representation. Most often it is done to glorify without any visible emotion or expressionism (on the part of the subject).

I genuinely have no idea what this means - can you put it in layman's terms?


(I like the picture - btw - William won't cos the carpet is rumpled )

They are usually bland, sometimes making the subjects look almost gormless. Who's ever seen an angel or Jesus, or even an halo, unless they've witnessed a miracle or unless they're two thousand years old. Maybe I worded it badly.

[thebish]

All religious art, from necessity, is pure representation. Most often it is done to glorify without any visible emotion or expressionism (on the part of the subject).

I genuinely have no idea what this means - can you put it in layman's terms?


(I like the picture - btw - William won't cos the carpet is rumpled )

They are usually bland, sometimes making the subjects look almost gormless. Who's ever seen an angel or Jesus, or even an halo, unless they've witnessed a miracle or unless they're two thousand years old. Maybe I worded it badly.

ok - but do you really mean "all" christian art - and why is it "by necessity" - not sure I understand your reasoning....

[TANGODANCER]

All religious art, from necessity, is pure representation. Most often it is done to glorify without any visible emotion or expressionism (on the part of the subject).

I genuinely have no idea what this means - can you put it in layman's terms?


(I like the picture - btw - William won't cos the carpet is rumpled )

They are usually bland, sometimes making the subjects look almost gormless. Who's ever seen an angel or Jesus, or even an halo, unless they've witnessed a miracle or unless they're two thousand years old. Maybe I worded it badly.

ok - but do you really mean "all" christian art - and why is it "by necessity" - not sure I understand your reasoning....

Not necessarily Christian, but I'll go with it (look at the art of other religions), and "by necessity" means that none of it is painted from life and is all the product of imagination. Most of it is painted by devotees glorifying the topic and, although all art is the product of the artist's individual skills, much of the paintings are devoted to ornamentation like clouds, halos, celestial backgrounds etc. Sure, it's probably well meant, but the very falseness of the things I mention do little to encourage a sense of reality in any of it. This is an opinion/view of course (and you're like a fxxking pit bull when you get your teeth into something. Are you related to Thomas Torquemqada somewhere back there? ) and should be treated as such.

[thebish]

if i get you right - you seem to be suggesting that all christian art is "by necessity" bland with the subjects looking gormless - because... well I'm still not sure why....

have i missed something?

not sure where the pitbull thing comes from - you seemed to be saying something - and I wanted to know what it was - cos it sounds utterly ludicrous to me - hence I am seeking further clarification./..

are you saying that Rembrandts "Prodigal" has gormless looking subjects and is bland? If so - what makes your example less gormless or bland (I happen to like both - but you seem to have dismissed the Rembrandt)

is the subject in the brazillian crucifixion gormless-looking or bland? (I think not...)


I am at a loss to know how you make the connection between the artist using his imagination - cos he wasn't there - (the pre-raphaelites painted with their imagination too...) - and the subject having to be bland or gormless... how does that follow?

[TANGODANCER]

if i get you right - you seem to be suggesting that all christian art is "by necessity" bland with the subjects looking gormless - because... well I'm still not sure why....

have i missed something?

not sure where the pitbull thing comes from - you seemed to be saying something - and I wanted to know what it was - cos it sounds utterly ludicrous to me - hence I am seeking further clarification./..

are you saying that Rembrandts "Prodigal" has gormless looking subjects and is bland? If so - what makes your example less gormless or bland (I happen to like both - but you seem to have dismissed the Rembrandt)

is the subject in the brazillian crucifixion gormless-looking or bland? (I think not...)


I am at a loss to know how you make the connection between the artist using his imagination - cos he wasn't there - (the pre-raphaelites painted with their imagination too...) - and the subject having to be bland or gormless... how does that follow?

Let's leave it at ludicrous then and give somebody else a chance hey? If you don't know what I'm saying then further explanation won't help.

[thebish]

[TANGODANCER]

An unusual form of art, but incredibly clever:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/cult ... ml?image=1

[William the White]

This looks to me like the most unmissable exhibition in London.

Paula Rego just outstanding painter of emotionally tearing brilliant evocations of stained childhood - had me shaking at the last exhibition of hers I saw (in Madrid three years ago... just overwhelming)... And - on this thread - the much loved Tracey Emin, looking forward to seing this work from 18 months ago... Mat Colishaw (I'm ashamed to say) I don't know... but he's in good company here...

http://www.foundlingmuseum.org.uk/exhibit_temp.php

Was wondering when the next trip to London should be (didn't manage even one last year) - this given me the impetus to make up my mind... you Southern whites - get round there, see some real contemporary art...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Tracey Emin... her chutzpah is admirable, if nothing else.

Loved her effort, 'Six Year Old Andy Murray Fan', I believe it was called, that ended up being part of this nonsense.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8485448.stm

[William the White]

Tracey Emin... her chutzpah is admirable, if nothing else.

Loved her effort, 'Six Year Old Andy Murray Fan', I believe it was called, that ended up being part of this nonsense.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8485448.stm

thought you'd approve of treating the rubbish like that...

i don't understand it either, neither does it interest me for one minute. a shrug of the shoulders is the best i can manage - a slight irritation the most i can get angry about it. self-indulgent - nonsense is a good description.

still, got the artist on telly... and us talking about it - which is the point, i guess.

[Dujon]

William the White,

Are not all artists, purely by definition, 'self indulgent'? If my understanding holds true, then what is an artist who is not 'self indulgent', regardless of who produces a critique of their work?

Perhaps we differ in definition as 'self indulgence' to me, in an artist, is the production of works which express their inner feelings and for all they care the rest of the world can go and take a running jump.

If, by contrast, you define 'self indulgence' as either 'ineptness' or 'commercialism' then I might agree.

[Worthy4England]

Hmmm Jordan as Myra Hindley...

Lets stir up a shit-storm it's what art is about

Not-art in my humble opinion.

Make sure you get the hyphen in the right place No-tart just doesn't work...

[Bruce Rioja]

Oh good grief. They'll hang one next to it - Hindley with her tits out, next.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Taken from the poetry thread...

Tranquility - no - but sweet and erotic... This is beautiful...

William, you're clearly into your eroticism, it's something that has come up quite a lot in your poetry/art tastes... I'm surprised you're quite so scathing about Jack Vettriano - I actually think you'd have a reasonable amount in common with him if you ever met him.

I stayed in the Malmaison London recently, where this was hanging over the stairs (assume it was a print, but one never knows with Malmaison, and it is a Scottish company):



My guess is you're going to tell me it's a bit blunt and unsophisticated for your tastes, but I think you'd appreciate a lot of his inspiration and motivations.

He's much more interested in these kind of scenes than the Singing Butler postcard he's famous for.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Anyway, I'm really keen to start exploring this, now it's opened: http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/ ... 937925.ece

I think I might fit in a couple of hours there on Friday.

maybe we should have a TW art meet there!

A twart meet?

I squeezed in an hour and half there recently and can't recommend it highly enough. A fine collection, thoughtfully and impressively laid out.

The review in The Economist says it better than I could:

The Victoria & Albert Museum
Seeing is believing
The new Medieval and Renaissance galleries are a treat

Nov 26th 2009 | From The Economist print edition
V and A

FUTURE and past have arrived at once at London’s Victoria & Albert Museum. Ten galleries on three levels have been created to house the new Medieval and Renaissance galleries, which are due to open on December 2nd. Continuing the curatorial approach used ten years ago in the first of its new displays, in the British galleries, these 1,800 objects, from 300AD to 1600, are arranged in a broadly chronological sequence and cover a range of themes including devotion, trade and city life. The dividing lines between historic periods and geographic places are permeable: the Middle Ages flows into the Renaissance; there is interplay between north and south Europe and trade between west and east. The flow seems entirely natural, even if hundreds of the items on view (among them tapestries, jewels, armour, bubbling fountains, embroidered copes, decorated caskets and ivories such as the Symmachi panel, pictured) are more notable for their aesthetic appeal than for their contribution to an historical narrative.

What a gift it is to have one of Leonardo da Vinci’s notebooks, small enough to have sat in his palm, on permanent view for the first time. Only a few feet away is Michelangelo’s small wax model for one of his slaves. The list goes on—from a slew of golden reliquaries to the panels of stained glass from that Paris jewel, Sainte Chapelle. A 17.7-square-metre window that dates back to the 12th century and comes from a house at Trie-Château, near Beauvais, is one of a number of items that has not been on public view for at least a generation.

The new galleries and the presentation of their objects has been the work of a London firm, McInnes Usher McKnight Architects. In the area dedicated to “Devotion and Display 300-1500” large sheets of pale, sensuous, mottled onyx hang in front of the windows. The filtered natural light has a caressing glow. This enhances the feeling of lightness and transparency, and also gives the works a new liveliness. This is particularly true of Andrea Riccio’s 16th-century, “The Shouting Horseman”, which has a force and beauty that was largely unappreciated before.

A formerly unused external area between the two buildings comprising this wing has been glassed over. The original brick and stone walls form a striking background for a soaring, tightly curling French Renaissance wooden staircase and the façade of Paul Pindar’s house, which dates from about 1600 and is a rare survivor of the fire of London.

These objects belonged to the grand, secular and sacred. A charming glimpse of intimate life among the grand is found in a small, deep-purple room lined with implements used for beautification and personal adornment. There is, for example, a curved silver toothpick cum nail cleaner that could be hung from a chain around the neck. There are caps (chiefly men’s) and one pair of lacy, embroidered mules of the kind favoured by Venetian courtesans. And there are sumptuous jewels, among them a glorious salamander pendant, its body made of a fat baroque pearl.

Before the rearrangement, it was easy to pass under the superb painted trompe-l’oeil ceiling from Casa Maffi without noticing it. Now what was once the private, even select, pleasure of a few is there for all to see and enjoy in the room devoted to “Donatello and the Making of Art”. Its old admirers may feel sad that its charms are no longer theirs alone. Any moans will be drowned out by applause, though. The new Medieval and Renaissance galleries are a joy.