Portsmouth AGAIN

[Worthy4England]

Agree entirely but in terms of how well run we are as a "football club", its impossible to have achieved what we have in relation to our size and not have some debt, certainly in the English game.

I suppose its about the balance. Settle for yo-yo club status and never strive to stay in the premiership really like West Brom or take the plunge like we have.

The Man Utds, Liverpools, etc are in exactly the same sort of boat we are, just to a different degree but then with bigger assets!

Yes but that's the whole point. Pompey went balls out and "bought" an FA Cup win, we're going a little more cautiously and just buying the annual Club Membership.

The principle is no different, just the extent changes.

If you don't feel sorry for Pompey, then I would expect anyone to feel sorry for us.

But I'd say that we've done what we've had to do to get by in this new Premiership top 4, money dominated world.
Whereas Pompey have shown no regard to anything other than the short term boom and have suffered for it. Spending all that money to "win a trophy" is totally irresponsible. At least staying in the premiership has a fiscal reward that makes the gamble somewhat understandable.

Of course its all about the "extent" as is everything in life, but thats where judgement, common sense and prudence comes to play.

Portsmouth have benefitted from players they haven't paid for, nor paid on time several times. This to me is cheating and why I don't feel particularly sorry for the club. The fans of course I feel incredibly sorry for!

This is where you're being very blinkered. We don't have a "right" to be in the Prem, no more than Pompey had a right to win the FA Cup.

[Worthy4England]

Agree entirely but in terms of how well run we are as a "football club", its impossible to have achieved what we have in relation to our size and not have some debt, certainly in the English game.

I suppose its about the balance. Settle for yo-yo club status and never strive to stay in the premiership really like West Brom or take the plunge like we have.

The Man Utds, Liverpools, etc are in exactly the same sort of boat we are, just to a different degree but then with bigger assets!

Yes but that's the whole point. Pompey went balls out and "bought" an FA Cup win, we're going a little more cautiously and just buying the annual Club Membership.

The principle is no different, just the extent changes.

If you don't feel sorry for Pompey, then I would expect anyone to feel sorry for us.

But I'd say that we've done what we've had to do to get by in this new Premiership top 4, money dominated world.
Whereas Pompey have shown no regard to anything other than the short term boom and have suffered for it. Spending all that money to "win a trophy" is totally irresponsible. At least staying in the premiership has a fiscal reward that makes the gamble somewhat understandable.

Of course its all about the "extent" as is everything in life, but thats where judgement, common sense and prudence comes to play.

Portsmouth have benefitted from players they haven't paid for, nor paid on time several times. This to me is cheating and why I don't feel particularly sorry for the club. The fans of course I feel incredibly sorry for!

This is where you're being very blinkered. We don't have a "right" to be in the Prem, no more than Pompey had a right to win the FA Cup.

[Lord Kangana]

What I can't get my head round is that people are making a direct correlation between their spending and their FA Cup win. They played Cardiff in the cup final ffs, I'd fancy us under Megson in that scenario, they hadn't bought players to specifically target one competition.

What they did, was to a greater degree exactly what we have done. Bought players to ensure survival, and a push up the table to the more rarified (and lucrative) upper echelons of the Premier League. Which is now infested with clubs either massively in debt or heavily subsidised. Which makes an absolute mockery of the idea that football is now a "business".

[BWFC_Insane]

Agree entirely but in terms of how well run we are as a "football club", its impossible to have achieved what we have in relation to our size and not have some debt, certainly in the English game.

I suppose its about the balance. Settle for yo-yo club status and never strive to stay in the premiership really like West Brom or take the plunge like we have.

The Man Utds, Liverpools, etc are in exactly the same sort of boat we are, just to a different degree but then with bigger assets!

Yes but that's the whole point. Pompey went balls out and "bought" an FA Cup win, we're going a little more cautiously and just buying the annual Club Membership.

The principle is no different, just the extent changes.

If you don't feel sorry for Pompey, then I would expect anyone to feel sorry for us.

But I'd say that we've done what we've had to do to get by in this new Premiership top 4, money dominated world.
Whereas Pompey have shown no regard to anything other than the short term boom and have suffered for it. Spending all that money to "win a trophy" is totally irresponsible. At least staying in the premiership has a fiscal reward that makes the gamble somewhat understandable.

Of course its all about the "extent" as is everything in life, but thats where judgement, common sense and prudence comes to play.

Portsmouth have benefitted from players they haven't paid for, nor paid on time several times. This to me is cheating and why I don't feel particularly sorry for the club. The fans of course I feel incredibly sorry for!

This is where you're being very blinkered. We don't have a "right" to be in the Prem, no more than Pompey had a right to win the FA Cup.

I'm not saying we have a "right" to be there, but I'm saying as a club we couldn't have done half the things we've done without being there. Being in the premiership pays a significant amount and its important to remember we had something like 30M debt on promotion so actually our debt has doubled after 9 premiership years. In real terms I'm not sure whether thats much of an increase or not!

I think gambling a moderate amount to stay up is somewhat more sensible than gambling a silly amount to win something that actually gives you very little financial reward.

[Tombwfc]

If Pompey would've lived within their means and the means of their Eddie Davies (Gaydamak has said plenty of times recently he's in no hurry to get his money back) they would be in no-where near as much trouble as they are in.

Pompeys situation does differ from ours in that at least our club is sustainable for as long as Eddie Davies was around. Short of finding a billionaire (which is presumably why they've been passing it around to every chancer who can pull the wool over Storries eyes), Pompey were never going to last any longer than they did. No sooner had they won the FA Cup (which contained numerous players they still haven't paid for or are actively suing them) the firesale had started with the likes of Diarra and Muntari being shipped out. The only big money players they've bought since then, Crouch and Kaboul, both came and went without Portsmouth paying anywhere near the amount agreed for them.

All this without even mentioning the charges hanging over Storrie, Mandaric and Redknapp.

Of course, to a much lesser extent we are similar in that we are in debt. Ultimately if we've got ourselves into a situation whereby there's nothing stopping Eddie from walking away tommorow and folding the club on the spot, then it's tough shit for us, and I wouldn't expect much sympathy. If you live the dream, you can't complain when it comes back to haunt you eventually. If you make bad decisions on or off the pitch by hiring the wrong manager/players or getting into bed with the wrong type of people, then you'll slip down the leagues while others take your place. That's why we are where we are, and that's the kind of cyclical nature that is so great about football.

[bristol_Wanderer3]

The main difference between us and Pompey, is that our benefactor is more stable, and perhaps in it for slightly more heartfelt reasons. Gaydamak was very much their ED or maybe Abramovich, with lavish plans to upgrade the whole club, including facilities, until the credit crunch, or possibly his over estimating the level of his or his family's finances, meant he had to pull the plug. What has happened since is basically a desperate club trying to survive, and making short termist, and bad decisions. We might well do similar desperate acts with likely tragic results if ED suddenly lost his fortune.

I don't see how that makes us too much more commendable than Pompey. There are very few "organically" run clubs in this league now, and those that are almost certain to struggle, with the exceptions perhaps of two outstanding managers at naturally big clubs; Moyes and Everton, and Wenger and Arsenal, although Arsenal have billionaires potentially fighting over them.

It would be nice if all football clubs were forced to operate within the limits of their football income, and the influence of benefactors and then agents were reduced, and the competition was closer to a genuine sporting one, but that is sadly unlikely.

[William the White]

The main difference between us and Pompey, is that our benefactor is more stable, and perhaps in it for slightly more heartfelt reasons. Gaydamak was very much their ED or maybe Abramovich, with lavish plans to upgrade the whole club, including facilities, until the credit crunch, or possibly his over estimating the level of his or his family's finances, meant he had to pull the plug. What has happened since is basically a desperate club trying to survive, and making short termist, and bad decisions. We might well do similar desperate acts with likely tragic results if ED suddenly lost his fortune.

I don't see how that makes us too much more commendable than Pompey. There are very few "organically" run clubs in this league now, and those that are almost certain to struggle, with the exceptions perhaps of two outstanding managers at naturally big clubs; Moyes and Everton, and Wenger and Arsenal, although Arsenal have billionaires potentially fighting over them.

It would be nice if all football clubs were forced to operate within the limits of their football income, and the influence of benefactors and then agents were reduced, and the competition was closer to a genuine sporting one, but that is sadly unlikely.

I think it's getting more and more likely... the financial failure of several former-prem clubs, the on the near-horizon new UEFA rules on wages, the salary cap noises coming from occasional chairmen, the MU debt and glazers abysmal behaviour, the fans in revolt at liverpool... It's like no one is safe from meltdown...

I admit that's no guarantee that clubs will decide to swim together rather than drown individually - but the failure of Portsmouth, should it come to pass, in the 'richest league in the world' could lead to financial regulation that keeps the stupidity in check...

Or not... I admit... as football clubs embrace the lemming as pet of the year...

[FaninOz]

The Portsmouth situation is a farce and has brought the FA and the Premiership into total disrespect in the way that they have totally failed to manage football in the UK. But it is only the tip of the iceberg in that every team, other than a very small handfull are in serious financial debt. The current situation is unsustainable and major changes are required if clubs are to survive into the next decade. The FA and Premeirship have at the most ten years to sort it all out for if they don't we wont have a Premiership by 2020. But perhap that is for the best.

I would much prefer to see an English league with qual funding for each club, capped salaries and squad sizes, to give everyone a chance to win the title. If that means that the few big clubs s0d off into a European league and leave the majority of English clubs on a level field of financial rules then so be it.

[jaffka]

If they are wound up today and the club disappears, what happens to the points that clubs have gained from playing them?

Would we lose 3 points?

[CAPSLOCK]

Simply, yes

[jaffka]

A quick scan of results from the BBC would reveal that, the following points will be deducted:
Fulham -6
Birmingham -3
Arsenal -3
Man City -6
Bolton -3
Aston Villa -3
Everton -3
Hull -1
Blackburn -3
Stoke -3
Man Utd -6
Sunderland -2
Chelsea -3
West Ham -4

So in short we would be 4 points adrift of Burnley and Hull, West Ham 5 points. Wolves would move into 17th place and we would then be in the bottom 3.

Come on the Inland Revenue, strike a deal and keep them in business to the end of the season.

[Little Green Man]

and we would then be in the bottom 3

Only the bottom 2 would go down though if Portsmouth folded.

[Lord Kangana]

A quick scan of results from the BBC would reveal that, the following points will be deducted:
Fulham -6
Birmingham -3
Arsenal -3
Man City -6
Bolton -3
Aston Villa -3
Everton -3
Hull -1
Blackburn -3
Stoke -3
Man Utd -6
Sunderland -2
Chelsea -3
West Ham -4

So in short we would be 4 points adrift of Burnley and Hull, West Ham 5 points. Wolves would move into 17th place and we would then be in the bottom 3.

Come on the Inland Revenue, strike a deal and keep them in business to the end of the season.

United losing 6 points will count in our favour. I doubt Arsenal and Chelsea will sit on their hands either. If it was just us I'd be worried, but if it affects the big boys, expect a compromise.

[jaffka]

The final 'BIG' payment made by the premier league to clubs may be the saviour.

The league withheld funds from transfers made by Portsmouth to clear outstanding debts with other clubs, surely a similar arrangment could be made to cover the quoted 7 million that is outstanding to HMRC.

[boltonboris]

DENIED

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... 505321.stm

[Lord Kangana]

Wait up. That article says administration. Doesn't that mean a nine point deduction, but not necessarily being thrown out of the competiton? My vague understanding is that even if they field the under-9's they'lll be seen to fulfill their fixtures? Am I wrong?

[superjohnmcginlay]

Im not sure the article's correct about possible adminstration. The winding up order will probably result in liquidation.

[superjohnmcginlay]

They've been given a week.

[bobo the clown]

Wait up. That article says administration. Doesn't that mean a nine point deduction, but not necessarily being thrown out of the competiton? My vague understanding is that even if they field the under-9's they'lll be seen to fulfill their fixtures? Am I wrong?

It actually says

... Portsmouth face a High Court winding-up hearing at 1130 GMT which could result in the club entering administration or being liquidated.

One is that they are put into Administrators hands who's duty is to run the club whilst looking for buyers and meanwhile trying to put the club on good financial footing. Remember Woolworth's when they ran things down across November 2008, with a view to closing ? It's like that.

The Administrators first debt repayment obligation willl be to pay the Inland Revenue. They will make dispassionate decisions and so if that means sacking people, tearing-up contract OR declaring the club insolvent, they will do. In that case they MAY decide that it's necessary to stop paying a players wage (& so he becomes a free agent, no fee involved) rather than wait till the next transfer window for a fee. That could be the case if immediate cash-flow was more important than waiting till June for a bigger lump.

OR ... they go immediately into insolvency. Basically, the game's up. A person COULD rush out waving a cheque for £7.5m, with the Revenue's name written on it but they'd need to be bloody quick. This is the same as the little shop down the road sudenly having the bailiffs walk in, throw everyone out & board it up. The Insolvency lawyers then sell everything (again, first dibs to the Revenue) at whatever they can get for it & the place closes. It's very quick & very clinical. If there seems no point in Administration this will be ordered.

[Lord Kangana]

Just out of interest, if they do have to selll their assets, will the players be able to move anywhere in England now the transfer window is shut?