The Great Art Debate

[William the White]

So this model making... does it involve dog in formaldehyde and seas of menstrual blood? What? Balsa wood and glue? My four year old and her half-blind grannie could do that. Yet count on it, there will be elderly blazer-owning persons holding their chins, puzzling over it, pretending it matters in the real world...

And - this is the outrage - some of my taxes go to support this so-called 'model makers'...

[Prufrock]

I'm always puzzled how when people don't like a type of art, literature and even sport, instead of saying they don't like it, they try to claim it isn't art, literature, or sport. I don't like the Brontes, Hardy, or Cricket. They don't appeal to my interests, and I don't get them. I'm not arguing Wuthering Heights isn't literature, or Kevin Peiterson a sportsman.

We tried before to give our own definitions of art, and the only one's which wouldn't include Emin's tent for example, are ones which specify it has to look pretty. That, in my opinion would be a pretty toss description of art. There's nothing wrong, or shameful in admitting one doesn't get something, or like something, or something doesn't appeal, but to try to argue that it isn't art because of that seems a bit daft. Religious art for instance, often leaves me unmoved, does that mean it isn't art? The argument I could do it is rubbish too. Most people could paint a pretty accurate replica of a Picasso, it's having the idea and putting yourself into the original that make sit art. That's even more obvious in music.

[Lord Kangana]

As I recall from the nineties, Damien Hirst (thats him isn't it?) decorated the then-owned-by-Maro-Pierre-White Quo Vadis. They fell out, so Marco took his paintings down and put some of his own up. I didn't notice the difference. So I suppose that exposes a fundamental flaw in certain aspects of modern art. If you have to explain it to me, why is it considered art?

[William the White]

Hmm. Seriously Guys. My understanding of the word 'Great' in The Great Art Debate is that it's a great debate about what constitutes art rather than a debate about what constitutes great art.

Am I at crossed purposes with everyone on this?

Posted the same point myself... So - on possibly this point only - you are not at crossed purposes with me...

[TANGODANCER]

So this model making... does it involve dog in formaldehyde and seas of menstrual blood? What? Balsa wood and glue? My four year old and her half-blind grannie could do that. Yet count on it, there will be elderly blazer-owning persons holding their chins, puzzling over it, pretending it matters in the real world...
And - this is the outrage - some of my taxes go to support this so-called 'model makers'...

[William the White]

As I recall from the nineties, Damien Hirst (thats him isn't it?) decorated the then-owned-by-Maro-Pierre-White Quo Vadis. They fell out, so Marco took his paintings down and put some of his own up. I didn't notice the difference. So I suppose that exposes a fundamental flaw in certain aspects of modern art. If you have to explain it to me, why is it considered art?

I'm not quite sure about the steps here... how do you get from 'not noticing the difference' (Is the point that you didn't notice, or there was no difference?) to the necessity to 'explain' (explain what? Hirst? Marco?) and from there to the idea that explanation denies the validity of it being 'considered art'? )Art should be instantly comprehensible?)

Not a wind up - I just don't follow... (fourth glass of pinot grigio after remains-of-duck stir fry may be getting in my way - so glad I'm away from work for the next 10 days - he says smugly...).

[Lord Kangana]

The art had the same (esoteric?) value in my eyes. One by an artist, one as a p*sstake. Same end result.

I've always come down on the side of artisan in my own craft, whilst others would describe certain aspects of my trade as "art". I fundamentaly disagree, as I've seen first hand what it takes to acquire the skills. Ergo, nature is nothing without nurture, talent is nothing without application, tools or training. I therefore have difficulty describing a majority of things as art. For an example, I went to see your play the other week and thoroughly enjoyed it. But I hesitate to call it art. I think that would do all involved a disservice. I think even great artists of the past display training aswell as inspiration. And I think "Modern Art", and particulalry that of the BritArt latches on to a certain fear of professionalism buried deep in the British psyche.

Anyway, its late, and I'm struggling to find the right phraseology. I watched this the other evening;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... of_Pastry/

The first three minutes (the short speech by Sarkozy) encapsulate what I'm on about. If you can sit through the remaining 2 hours its great, but kind of subsidiary to the point, even though it illustrates it beautifully.

[William the White]

thank you for the response LK - i watched the sarkozy extract...

i agree with him - and I think, you - that art is not simply a gift - it's hard won, and has to be worked at again and again... earned, again and again...

tho the gifted will get further, much further, than the artisan can ever hope - but only by the same hard work...

mozart... salieri...

indeed the gifted will often work harder, seeking to command the subject, because they are driven by a high compulsion to create, and, in some cases, only truly happy when working...

thank you for going to see my (and my co-writer's) play, and i'm really glad you enjoyed it... it took a lot of learning about craft to be able to write it...

[Worthy4England]

I'm always puzzled how when people don't like a type of art, literature and even sport, instead of saying they don't like it, they try to claim it isn't art, literature, or sport. I don't like the Brontes, Hardy, or Cricket. They don't appeal to my interests, and I don't get them. I'm not arguing Wuthering Heights isn't literature, or Kevin Peiterson a sportsman.

We tried before to give our own definitions of art, and the only one's which wouldn't include Emin's tent for example, are ones which specify it has to look pretty. That, in my opinion would be a pretty toss description of art. There's nothing wrong, or shameful in admitting one doesn't get something, or like something, or something doesn't appeal, but to try to argue that it isn't art because of that seems a bit daft. Religious art for instance, often leaves me unmoved, does that mean it isn't art? The argument I could do it is rubbish too. Most people could paint a pretty accurate replica of a Picasso, it's having the idea and putting yourself into the original that make sit art. That's even more obvious in music.

Dunno about that Pru. OED concise gives.

Art - noun 1 - The expression of creative skill through a visual medium such as painting or sculpture.

I guess if people don't see what Emin does as being "skill" then to them it isn't art. Skill is defined as:

Skill - noun 1 The ability to do something well; expertise or dexterity.

People may not see skill, expertise or dexterity in Emin's works, which is why they come to the conclusion that it's not art. After all, all I need to do to see a messy bed, is look in any bedroom in our house - nothing particularly skillful in it, although I could contend that various family members are more skillful in that particular direction than Emin.

As for her other "signature" work, wiki suggest that the main "idea" for it came from a TV show anyhow (not sure of the veracity of the claim though) - which would make it at best a copy of a poor idea in the first place.

By the same token,

Literature - noun 1 - Written works, especially those regarded as having artistic merit

So for the ones not regarded especially as having artistic merit, written works seems to cover it, without qualification. Hardy drives me to distraction too - something to do with the Mayor of bloody Casterbridge being one of my O Level books.

Sport on the other hand would appear to include cricket.

Sport - noun 1 - An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others.

[thebish]

[William the White]

At 11.30 tonight (Tues) on R4 is a programme entitled 'Why do people attack art?'. I believe it's likely to deal with contemporary art.

Compulsory viewing for Tango, and several others, looking for a rational justification for their one-eyed prejudices...

He says, provocatively...

[TANGODANCER]

At 11.30 tonight (Tues) on R4 is a programme entitled 'Why do people attack art?'. I believe it's likely to deal with contemporary art.

Compulsory viewing for Tango, and several others, looking for a rational justification for their one-eyed prejudices...

He says, provocatively...

"In the kingdom of the blind" etc.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

My girlfriend and I have just booked one night in Pisa and three nights in Florence for the start of June. Really looking forward to the Uffizi gallery and the other sights in the cradle of the Renaissance (and one of the world's original great capitalist cities ).

All recommendations welcome.

[William the White]

My girlfriend and I have just booked one night in Pisa and three nights in Florence for the start of June. Really looking forward to the Uffizi gallery and the other sites in the cradle of the Renaissance (and one of the world's original great capitalist cities ).

All recommendations welcome.

Do you know the poem 'In Paris With You'?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

My girlfriend and I have just booked one night in Pisa and three nights in Florence for the start of June. Really looking forward to the Uffizi gallery and the other sites in the cradle of the Renaissance (and one of the world's original great capitalist cities ).

All recommendations welcome.

Do you know the poem 'In Paris With You'?

I'm afraid I don't.

[William the White]

My girlfriend and I have just booked one night in Pisa and three nights in Florence for the start of June. Really looking forward to the Uffizi gallery and the other sites in the cradle of the Renaissance (and one of the world's original great capitalist cities ).

All recommendations welcome.

Do you know the poem 'In Paris With You'?

I'm afraid I don't.

recommendation...

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/in-paris-with-you/

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

recommendation...

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/in-paris-with-you/

Does absolutely nothing for me, William!

(Good to see your standard themes in place though... )

Ok, I'll rephrase - I'd be interested in hearing from anybody who has been to Pisa and Florence and has any recommendations of things to do in those places that they'd like to pass on.

[William the White]

Tonight I watched the BBC 1 'modern masters' on picasso... Very, very good examination of a life in art. honest, and perceptive in its examination of the 20th century's most important artist...

then the BBC 4 'Private life of a Masterpiece' on his Les Demoiselles d'Avignon... also excellent... esp enjoyed Germaine greer on this depiction of prostitutes in a brothel... wind her up, watch her go, Germaine always excellent value...

iPlayer is offering the entire series of both atm...

[thebish]

on an entirely different plane altogether - I shall be off to follow the elephant parade during half-term week...

http://www.elephantparadelondon.org/index.html

whole host of contemporary artists are involved one way or another...

[boltonboris]

on an entirely different plane altogether - I shall be off to follow the elephant parade during half-term week...

http://www.elephantparadelondon.org/index.html

whole host of contemporary artists are involved one way or another...

I remember the Cow Parade in Manchester... They were fantastic