The Politics Thread

[as]

20 years ago or so, my missus worked in Rochdale - in Woolworths Head office...

two quotes from her time in that office..

1. from the woman who used the same desk: "I wish we had a system like South Africa over here to keep them (the Asians) in their place."

2. from the HR manager "(sniggering) Oh yes - we interviewed am Asian for job, but (more sniggering) I think we all know everyone else would walk out if we employed one."

And this, wether people like it or not, is the problem in most working class towns.. Bolton has it, Oldham, Rochdale, Blackburn, Bradford, Huddersfield.. there's loads

Aye - and I bet racism never happens the other way round!

[thebish]

20 years ago or so, my missus worked in Rochdale - in Woolworths Head office...

two quotes from her time in that office..

1. from the woman who used the same desk: "I wish we had a system like South Africa over here to keep them (the Asians) in their place."

2. from the HR manager "(sniggering) Oh yes - we interviewed am Asian for job, but (more sniggering) I think we all know everyone else would walk out if we employed one."

And this, wether people like it or not, is the problem in most working class towns.. Bolton has it, Oldham, Rochdale, Blackburn, Bradford, Huddersfield.. there's loads

Aye - and I bet racism never happens the other way round!

do you???

[Prufrock]

20 years ago or so, my missus worked in Rochdale - in Woolworths Head office...

two quotes from her time in that office..

1. from the woman who used the same desk: "I wish we had a system like South Africa over here to keep them (the Asians) in their place."

2. from the HR manager "(sniggering) Oh yes - we interviewed am Asian for job, but (more sniggering) I think we all know everyone else would walk out if we employed one."

And this, wether people like it or not, is the problem in most working class towns.. Bolton has it, Oldham, Rochdale, Blackburn, Bradford, Huddersfield.. there's loads

Aye - and I bet racism never happens the other way round!

I've had a good look, a really good look, and I just can't see anybody having said that. Whereas 'It's alright to be racist as long as the other lot are' seems to be your jist?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I'm looking forward to tonight - much has been said about the BBC, but I actually think its political output is generally very good and I fully expect them to put ITV and Sky to shame.

Wish we had Andrew Neil and not Dimbleby in charge though (though he's infinitely preferable to Stewart or Boulton).

[as]

20 years ago or so, my missus worked in Rochdale - in Woolworths Head office...

two quotes from her time in that office..

1. from the woman who used the same desk: "I wish we had a system like South Africa over here to keep them (the Asians) in their place."

2. from the HR manager "(sniggering) Oh yes - we interviewed am Asian for job, but (more sniggering) I think we all know everyone else would walk out if we employed one."

And this, wether people like it or not, is the problem in most working class towns.. Bolton has it, Oldham, Rochdale, Blackburn, Bradford, Huddersfield.. there's loads

Aye - and I bet racism never happens the other way round!

I've had a good look, a really good look, and I just can't see anybody having said that. Whereas 'It's alright to be racist as long as the other lot are' seems to be your jist?

Just a nibble there! That was one of my WUM comments

Years ago one of the marketing managers at my old place said she'd never employ a muslim as 'they're too much trouble', this was post 9/11, so I think she really thought all of them were intent on blowing the world up!

[Prufrock]

20 years ago or so, my missus worked in Rochdale - in Woolworths Head office...

two quotes from her time in that office..

1. from the woman who used the same desk: "I wish we had a system like South Africa over here to keep them (the Asians) in their place."

2. from the HR manager "(sniggering) Oh yes - we interviewed am Asian for job, but (more sniggering) I think we all know everyone else would walk out if we employed one."

And this, wether people like it or not, is the problem in most working class towns.. Bolton has it, Oldham, Rochdale, Blackburn, Bradford, Huddersfield.. there's loads

Aye - and I bet racism never happens the other way round!

I've had a good look, a really good look, and I just can't see anybody having said that. Whereas 'It's alright to be racist as long as the other lot are' seems to be your jist?

Just a nibble there! That was one of my WUM comments

Years ago one of the marketing managers at my old place said she'd never employ a muslim as 'they're too much trouble', this was post 9/11, so I think she really thought all of them were intent on blowing the world up!

Ha, I knew you didn't mean it really . It's wholly depresseing the way for a lot of people, not even thick people, it's a blanket view. My cousin, mum, Auntie, and Grandparents get whittering on about 'them lot', whilst Me, my brother, my other cousin, my dad and my Uncle sit there looking awkward. It's weird such a split could happen in one familly. It's not a flaming competition, us against them. Whoever us and them are.

I had fun with some 'anti-immigration' (that's how they put it, doesn't sound racist that way. All they need to say is 'valid concerns' and then they can get away with spouting all sorts of shite) guy once, let him waffle on until he mentined the word 'us'. What, you and me? There is no us, you're a xenophobic ignorant pig with a particular brand of racism specially reserved for the 'pakis' who thinks that because I too share your rough racial features I somehow feel linked to you. No no no. No sir, no. I feel much more alligned to the brown guy who lives next to you, who wants to get on with his life in peace, pay his taxes and just be, than I do with you, you indignant moron.

Was nice. Though I walked away sharply. I'm not a fighter, I'm a bleeder.

[InsaneApache]

20 years ago or so, my missus worked in Rochdale - in Woolworths Head office...

two quotes from her time in that office..

1. from the woman who used the same desk: "I wish we had a system like South Africa over here to keep them (the Asians) in their place."

2. from the HR manager "(sniggering) Oh yes - we interviewed am Asian for job, but (more sniggering) I think we all know everyone else would walk out if we employed one."

And this, wether people like it or not, is the problem in most working class towns.. Bolton has it, Oldham, Rochdale, Blackburn, Bradford, Huddersfield.. there's loads

Aye - and I bet racism never happens the other way round!

do you???

I'll have a go at answering that. I was walking down westgate in Bradford when a car pulled up next to me. In it was three young asian lads. They shouted and swore at me, telling me to get out of 'their' part of town and threatened me if I didn't. About that time a middle aged white guy was stabbed near Lister park by an asian youth, presumably because he couldn't get out of 'their' part of town fast enough. Of course our pliant press don't report it as racist, because after all, only whites can be racist.

Talk about giving a leg up to the BNP. *shakes head*

Anyroad back on to Mc Mental.

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when he turned up at her house. BTW WTF was he doing grimacing like that outside her house. The guys obviously in need of therapy. Weirdo or what!

[thebish]

20 years ago or so, my missus worked in Rochdale - in Woolworths Head office...

two quotes from her time in that office..

1. from the woman who used the same desk: "I wish we had a system like South Africa over here to keep them (the Asians) in their place."

2. from the HR manager "(sniggering) Oh yes - we interviewed am Asian for job, but (more sniggering) I think we all know everyone else would walk out if we employed one."

And this, wether people like it or not, is the problem in most working class towns.. Bolton has it, Oldham, Rochdale, Blackburn, Bradford, Huddersfield.. there's loads

Aye - and I bet racism never happens the other way round!

do you???

I'll have a go at answering that. I was walking down westgate in Bradford when a car pulled up next to me. In it was three young asian lads. They shouted and swore at me, telling me to get out of 'their' part of town and threatened me if I didn't. About that time a middle aged white guy was stabbed near Lister park by an asian youth, presumably because he couldn't get out of 'their' part of town fast enough. Of course our pliant press don't report it as racist, because after all, only whites can be racist.

Talk about giving a leg up to the BNP. *shakes head*

Anyroad back on to Mc Mental.

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when he turned up at her house. BTW WTF was he doing grimacing like that outside her house. The guys obviously in need of therapy. Weirdo or what!

but you havent really answered my question - like a politician you have answered a different one!

Is "as" betting that racism never happens "the other way around"?

at best you seem to be offering him a cautionary tale not to make that bet... (but it may be to late - he might already have laid the bet...)

[as]

And this, wether people like it or not, is the problem in most working class towns.. Bolton has it, Oldham, Rochdale, Blackburn, Bradford, Huddersfield.. there's loads

Aye - and I bet racism never happens the other way round!

do you???

I'll have a go at answering that. I was walking down westgate in Bradford when a car pulled up next to me. In it was three young asian lads. They shouted and swore at me, telling me to get out of 'their' part of town and threatened me if I didn't. About that time a middle aged white guy was stabbed near Lister park by an asian youth, presumably because he couldn't get out of 'their' part of town fast enough. Of course our pliant press don't report it as racist, because after all, only whites can be racist.

Talk about giving a leg up to the BNP. *shakes head*

Anyroad back on to Mc Mental.

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when he turned up at her house. BTW WTF was he doing grimacing like that outside her house. The guys obviously in need of therapy. Weirdo or what!

but you havent really answered my question - like a politician you have answered a different one!

Is "as" betting that racism never happens "the other way around"?

at best you seem to be offering him a cautionary tale not to make that bet... (but it may be to late - he might already have laid the bet...)

To confirm, I'm fully aware it happens both ways, as I went to Smithills and grew up in Halliwell.

My advice to the masses? Avoid Queens Park at night - zulu's, thousands of them!

[Bruce Rioja]

What a stupid controversy. George Bush once called a guy a "major league asshole" on mic and nothing happened. I bet Brown would have gained more votes by standing by his words.

Yeah but, you know.................... in America etc. etc.

It's certainly not a world first though, that's for sure. I've had Romanian visitors over this week and so am therefore qualified to claim - Ahem, only this morning I was talking to two Romanian guys.

I explained what had happened with Brown in Rochdale. They then told me about something quite similar that happened to their man Basescu on being interviewed by a journalist a few years ago after he'd snatched her still-recording phone.

I found this.


Romanian president apologizes for calling journalist 'stinky Gypsy'


ASSOCIATED PRESS

1:15 p.m. May 21, 2007

BUCHAREST, Romania – Romanian President Traian Basescu apologized Monday for calling a journalist a “stinky Gypsy” during a conversation recorded on the reporter's cell phone and broadcast on local television.
Basescu was approached by the journalist, Andreea Pana, in a Bucharest supermarket on Saturday, when Romanians were voting on whether to impeach him for alleged constitutional abuses. Basescu overwhelmingly won the vote.

Pana tried to ask him about the ballot and filmed him with a cell phone. Irritated, Basescu snatched the phone from her, but it continued to record a conversation between Basescu and his wife, Maria, in which the president called Pana a “stinky Gypsy.”

A Basescu spokesman later returned the phone to the journalist, and audio portions of the clip were broadcast on Romanian TV stations.

The president issued an apology, saying the remarks were caused by stress.

Basescu “regrets that an improper expression used in a private conversation ... became public,” his office said. “He asks her to accept his sincere apology.”

Basescu easily won the referendum, with more than 74 percent of Romanians backing him. Parliament had suspended the president and called the referendum, saying he violated the constitution by usurping the role of the prime minister and criticizing the courts.

The Constitutional Court had ruled that the president did not abuse his powers, but lawmakers were allowed to make their own decision.

On Monday, about 20 Gypsy and press freedom activists protested at the president's office, some wearing T-shirts reading “Stinky Gypsy.” They left a bar of soap and a CD with Gypsy music.

“Not only does the president have a duty not to discriminate ... but he is obliged by the constitution to have a proactive role in fighting all forms of discrimination,” the protesters said in a letter.

Gypsies in Romania are routinely discriminated against when applying for jobs, and many of them live in abject poverty.

There are officially some 500,000 Roma, or Gypsies, in Romania, but polls have put the actual figure at more than 1 million. Many do not declare themselves to be Gypsies due to widespread prejudice.

[BWFC_Insane]

Well the third debate didn't tell us anything we didn't know.

Brown is the strongest of the three on the economy.

Clegg came across the best and related better to people.

Cameron couldn't and decided not to try and defend some indefensible policies and sadly neither GB or NC were really given the chance to properly nail him on them.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Well the third debate didn't tell us anything we didn't know.

Brown is the strongest of the three on the economy.

Clegg came across the best and related better to people.

Cameron couldn't and decided not to try and defend some indefensible policies and sadly neither GB or NC were really given the chance to properly nail him on them.

Which indefensible policies did DC not defend? I thought he had his best of the three nights and was the clear 'winner' last night.

[BWFC_Insane]

Well the third debate didn't tell us anything we didn't know.

Brown is the strongest of the three on the economy.

Clegg came across the best and related better to people.

Cameron couldn't and decided not to try and defend some indefensible policies and sadly neither GB or NC were really given the chance to properly nail him on them.

Which indefensible policies did DC not defend? I thought he had his best of the three nights and was the clear 'winner' last night.

He couldn't, wouldn't and didn't try to offer an explanation of why when you're asking for sacfrifices all over to reduce the national debt, and you're talking about battoning down the hatches, how you can decide its fair to raise the inheritance tax threshold benefitting some of the richest people in the country.

He also couldn't, wouldn't and didn't put a number on his "immigration" cap and couldn't, wouldn't and didn't admit that of course its impossible to apply the cap to EU member states.

[thebish]

I think have now entered a kind of state of mild depressive inevitability over the whole election.

it is possible (even probably) that I was listening through a heavy labour-supporting filter (all of us hear through ideological filters to a degree) - I readily accept that.

but - having seen all three debates - and heard that Brown was considered to have lost them all quite definatively - then I despair. I wouldn't go as far as to say that Brown won any of them hands down - far from it - but I can only assume that the measure being applied is not one of substance, but one of prettiness and presentability.

what makes me despair is the realisation that the day has now dawned (it has been dawning for a while) - where style certainly trumps substance.

Cameron last night kept saying - in effect - we're sick of hearing tired old policies - let me tell you about my values - that's what matters.

yes - I want to know about values - BUT - values with no bones and substance - and with policies attached that don't seem to match - are worthless.

let me tell you about my values - in schools (he said) - I'm for aspiration and a fair chance for all - fine words - but HOW????

2 years before an election - yes, tell me your values - 1 week before - I want to know in concrete terms how your values translate into policy - and (I'm sorry) I do NOT trust you to tell me your values now and make up some policies later on.


I am resigned to a Tory win now - and (honestly!) I hope I am wrong about what that will mean. but I suspect I am not.

I take a tiny crumb of comfort from the fact that the governor of the bank of england reckons that whoever gets in will have to make such massive and swingeing cuts and tax increases that following the next election (or possibly the one after that) they will be out for a generation. in other words - this election is a poisoned chalice.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Well the third debate didn't tell us anything we didn't know.

Brown is the strongest of the three on the economy.

Clegg came across the best and related better to people.

Cameron couldn't and decided not to try and defend some indefensible policies and sadly neither GB or NC were really given the chance to properly nail him on them.

Which indefensible policies did DC not defend? I thought he had his best of the three nights and was the clear 'winner' last night.

He couldn't, wouldn't and didn't try to offer an explanation of why when you're asking for sacfrifices all over to reduce the national debt, and you're talking about battoning down the hatches, how you can decide its fair to raise the inheritance tax threshold benefitting some of the richest people in the country.

He also couldn't, wouldn't and didn't put a number on his "immigration" cap and couldn't, wouldn't and didn't admit that of course its impossible to apply the cap to EU member states.

Firstly, he made the IHT argument very clearly and directly. Whether or not you agree with him, he did and that's that.

He wasn't as direct on the cap, but I think everyone knows by now that as a general rule we can't restrict immigration from the EU, apart from when new countries join, in which case we can have transition periods, like Germany do. One of the things, presumably, a cap on the non-EU immigrants we allow in depends on, is the number of EU immigrants we are receiving - as he has said before, the number is a number to worked out according to our needs and the various agencies and government departments involved, and the overall aim is for net immigration to be in the tens of thousands, instead of regularly over 100,000.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Cameron last night kept saying - in effect - we're sick of hearing tired old policies - let me tell you about my values - that's what matters.

yes - I want to know about values - BUT - values with no bones and substance - and with policies attached that don't seem to match - are worthless.

let me tell you about my values - in schools (he said) - I'm for aspiration and a fair chance for all - fine words - but HOW????

I am resigned to a Tory win now - and (honestly!) I hope I am wrong about what that will mean. but I suspect I am not.

I take a tiny crumb of comfort from the fact that the governor of the bank of england reckons that whoever gets in will have to make such massive and swingeing cuts and tax increases that following the next election (or possibly the one after that) they will be out for a generation. in other words - this election is a poisoned chalice.

The schools policy doesn't lend itself to the debate format, but it is out there. It has taken me a while to come round to it, while the evidence has trickled down to me that there is some demand for what the Conservatives are proposing. I read this article the other day, which was an interesting perspective on the whole area: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 108874.ece


For what it's worth, I do not think there will be a Conservative majority - I think you're doing what any good Bolton fan does and preparing yourself for the outcome you don't want.

And yes, that sums up my feelings about what King has said too.

[BWFC_Insane]

Well the third debate didn't tell us anything we didn't know.

Brown is the strongest of the three on the economy.

Clegg came across the best and related better to people.

Cameron couldn't and decided not to try and defend some indefensible policies and sadly neither GB or NC were really given the chance to properly nail him on them.

Which indefensible policies did DC not defend? I thought he had his best of the three nights and was the clear 'winner' last night.

He couldn't, wouldn't and didn't try to offer an explanation of why when you're asking for sacfrifices all over to reduce the national debt, and you're talking about battoning down the hatches, how you can decide its fair to raise the inheritance tax threshold benefitting some of the richest people in the country.

He also couldn't, wouldn't and didn't put a number on his "immigration" cap and couldn't, wouldn't and didn't admit that of course its impossible to apply the cap to EU member states.

Firstly, he made the IHT argument very clearly and directly. Whether or not you agree with him, he did and that's that.

He wasn't as direct on the cap, but I think everyone knows by now that as a general rule we can't restrict immigration from the EU, apart from when new countries join, in which case we can have transition periods, like Germany do. One of the things, presumably, a cap on the non-EU immigrants we allow in depends on, is the number of EU immigrants we are receiving - as he has said before, the number is a number to worked out according to our needs and the various agencies and government departments involved, and the overall aim is for net immigration to be in the tens of thousands, instead of regularly over 100,000.

Must admit I sort of switched between the Fulham game at the debate, but I didn't hear him explain how it was fair, or even try and justify it, which I suppose being fair he couldn't do in a debate like that as it was not exactly a vote winner, quite the opposite in fact.

Look you know I'm not a Tory but like Bish I'm resigned to them winning now, I think they'll end up with a smallish majority. I fear for the future of our country, the public sector, the economy and the less well off.

I think we will end up where big business is rewarded and backed and everything else is shafted as with the previous Tory govt.

I hope I'm wrong but time will tell!

[Athers]

I've not finished it yet but them each mentioning Obama amused me a little bit. Other than that it's told me nothing so far.

Can't believe DC didn't go for a microphone joke after Brown's first statement, shame.

[thebish]

Cameron last night kept saying - in effect - we're sick of hearing tired old policies - let me tell you about my values - that's what matters.

yes - I want to know about values - BUT - values with no bones and substance - and with policies attached that don't seem to match - are worthless.

let me tell you about my values - in schools (he said) - I'm for aspiration and a fair chance for all - fine words - but HOW????

I am resigned to a Tory win now - and (honestly!) I hope I am wrong about what that will mean. but I suspect I am not.

I take a tiny crumb of comfort from the fact that the governor of the bank of england reckons that whoever gets in will have to make such massive and swingeing cuts and tax increases that following the next election (or possibly the one after that) they will be out for a generation. in other words - this election is a poisoned chalice.

The schools policy doesn't lend itself to the debate format, but it is out there. It has taken me a while to come round to it, while the evidence has trickled down to me that there is some demand for what the Conservatives are proposing. I read this article the other day, which was an interesting perspective on the whole area: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 108874.ece


For what it's worth, I do not think there will be a Conservative majority - I think you're doing what any good Bolton fan does and preparing yourself for the outcome you don't want.

And yes, that sums up my feelings about what King has said too.

maybe I haven't given cameron's school's policy the time it deserves - but I fail to understand how taking money out of the schools budget for parents to set up new schools in disused churches and office blocks (considering the MASSIVE amount that would cost even structurally!) helps raise the level of education for everyone. It will simply mean a handful of flagship parent or business-run schools where Dave can go for a photo-op - and millions of pounds taken out of the budgets for the schools that 90% of kids actually go to. or am I missing something?

further more - in this hands-off - make the headmaster the captain of the ship rhetoric - did I not hear Cameron last night dictating which particular method of learning-to-read system schools should all adopt? How on earth is that hands-off / small governement / letting schools run themselves??

I also believe Cameron has stipulated uniforms - setting by ability and children standing up when the teacher comes in - again - seems like incredibly small detail for a hands-off government....


as for preparing myself - I guess i am. I am past hoping for a labour majority now - that's would be the Bolton back in Europe analogy! I have a small amount of hope for a hung parliament and Clegg realising that he can't share a bed with Cameron - but I actually believe that Clegg's vote is very very soft and flavour of the month - and in the harsh light of a polling station booth - will melt away....

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Must admit I sort of switched between the Fulham game at the debate, but I didn't hear him explain how it was fair, or even try and justify it, which I suppose being fair he couldn't do in a debate like that as it was not exactly a vote winner, quite the opposite in fact.

Listen for a minute from 19mins40secs in: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/ ... 652884.stm

It may be that you don't hear it because you disagree so fundamentally, but there it is.

I don't think it's fair that someone who has spent all their life paying down a mortgage on a family home worth £2million, all the time paying progressive taxation on their earnings anyway, then has to leave their family with a huge IHT bill if the home is to stay within the family.