The Politics Thread

[Worthy4England]

4. It's important that we get away from the spend spend spend/legislate legislate legislate mentality that has so blighted us in the last 13 years. I believe a government under DC would do that.

Would you have blighted the banking industry by legislating more?

Until 2009 mid-crash, our budget deficit was lower than it had been between 1991 and 1997...remind me how that fits into spend, spend, spend...

I was talking more about criminal justice legislation.

It's clear that more banking regulation would have been desirable - I think everyone has learnt the lesson there. And even then it is questionable how much good we'd have done if we'd regulated and the rest of the world hadn't.

1997-2009 were supposed to be the boom years, unlike 1991-1997. Surely there's something wrong if you have such strong, sustained growth and yet you're still addicted to overspending?

It's also a question of attitude - all of this government's boasts have been in terms of £s spent.

not so... that's a preposterous claim...

The Good Friday Agreement
Devolution in scotland and wales (and now NI)
International leadership on solutions to the world credit crisis
International leadership with europe on Climate Change
Restoring city-wide government to London
the equality and human rights commission
scrapping section 28
introducing civil partnerships
the giving of authority to the BofE for seting interest rates (summat the tories explicitly denounced time and time again)


none of these things are boasted about primarily because of money spent.

but there is much to be proud of in terms of choices made with money too...

the national minimum wage (the tories fought tooth and nail against this and said it would destroy the economy - will they now scrap it?)
over 2000 surestart centres (again - consistently opposed by the tories - will they now close them?)
overseas aid budget more than doubled
Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.
nursery education now at 3yrs

(just to scratch the surface)

You can't possibly include the National Minimum Wage - it killed off business - entirely. The whole economy ground to a halt. Sorry, what's that? It didn't? My, I am surprised.

Anyhow that NI hike that's been planned for 2 years - now that would kill off business - entirely. The whole economy will grind to a halt.

[thebish]

The Good Friday Agreement
Devolution in scotland and wales (and now NI)
International leadership on solutions to the world credit crisis
International leadership with europe on Climate Change
Restoring city-wide government to London
the equality and human rights commission
scrapping section 28
introducing civil partnerships
the giving of authority to the BofE for seting interest rates (summat the tories explicitly denounced time and time again)

Cheers for reminding me why not to vote Labour

glad to be of service old boy...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

You can't possibly include the National Minimum Wage - it killed off business - entirely. The whole economy ground to a halt. Sorry, what's that? It didn't? My, I am surprised.

The minimum wage has always been pretty low though, hasn't it? I'm no expert on its history, but how far away from the market rate at the bottom of the labour market was it when it was introduced?

I also wonder how much some people's wages have actually been suppressed by the minimum wage - lots of employers have their basic pay rates simply anchored the the minimum wage... I have nothing to back this up, but my feeling is the minimum wage takes out some of the competition in the labour market that might otherwise drive wages upwards.


Anyway, an interesting area and the conventional wisdom that a minimum wage reduces employment has taken a bit of a battering over the last twenty years, all round the world.

Certainly there are no Conservative plans the scrap the UK version.

[ratbert]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uk_minimum_wage

It's Wikipedia, I know, but it's a good overview with enough extra links thrown in.

I'd argue it's not so much about labour market competition as trying to constrain pay gaps, which is not as easy as it sounds.

[thebish]

Certainly there are no Conservative plans the scrap the UK version.

David Cameron opposed the National Minimum Wage describing it as a “burden on business”.

Before the minimum wage, British people were often paid less than £1 an hour.

Every single Tory MP voted against the National Minimum Wage.

In 2008, a bill was put forward in the Commons by Tory backbenchers proposing the effective abolition of the National Minimum Wage, giving employers the option of refusing to hire those who refused to work below the Minimum Wage. Peter Bone was one of the Conservative MPs proposing this bill, Peter Bone once boasted in a speech to the Conservative Conference that he only paid his employees 88p per hour.

the tories won't abolish it up-front - but they have made it pretty clear that they will stop increasing it in line with inflation and slowly let it wither on the vine. They will engineer tiny increases to the hourly rate by changing the personnel on the Low Pay Commission - the body which oversees the increases.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Before the minimum wage, British people were often paid less than £1 an hour.

A figure I'd be more interested in, if anyone's got it, is what McDonalds were paying their adult employees just before the NMW came in.


Also in that Wiki article, incidentally:

"The current London Mayor Boris Johnson, a Conservative, has supported the London Living wage since coming to office, ensuring that all city hall employees and subcontracted workers earn at least £7.60 an hour and promoting the wage to employers across the city. In May 2009 his GLA Economics unit raised the London Living Wage for City Hall employees to its current rate of £7.60, £1.80 more than the then minimum wage of £5.80."

[thebish]

Before the minimum wage, British people were often paid less than £1 an hour.

A figure I'd be more interested in, if anyone's got it, is what McDonalds were paying their adult employees just before the NMW came in.


Also in that Wiki article, incidentally:

"The current London Mayor Boris Johnson, a Conservative, has supported the London Living wage since coming to office, ensuring that all city hall employees and subcontracted workers earn at least £7.60 an hour and promoting the wage to employers across the city. In May 2009 his GLA Economics unit raised the London Living Wage for City Hall employees to its current rate of £7.60, £1.80 more than the then minimum wage of £5.80."

that's the Boris Johnson who is always reliably on-message!

[Hoboh]

4. It's important that we get away from the spend spend spend/legislate legislate legislate mentality that has so blighted us in the last 13 years. I believe a government under DC would do that.

Would you have blighted the banking industry by legislating more?

Until 2009 mid-crash, our budget deficit was lower than it had been between 1991 and 1997...remind me how that fits into spend, spend, spend...

I was talking more about criminal justice legislation.

It's clear that more banking regulation would have been desirable - I think everyone has learnt the lesson there. And even then it is questionable how much good we'd have done if we'd regulated and the rest of the world hadn't.

1997-2009 were supposed to be the boom years, unlike 1991-1997. Surely there's something wrong if you have such strong, sustained growth and yet you're still addicted to overspending?

It's also a question of attitude - all of this government's boasts have been in terms of £s spent.

not so... that's a preposterous claim...

The Good Friday Agreement Tick
Devolution in scotland and wales (and now NI) Tick
International leadership on solutions to the world credit crisis Big cross
International leadership with europe on Climate Change big cross
Restoring city-wide government to London who cares cross
the equality and human rights commission Cross
scrapping section 28 cross
introducing civil partnerships not important
the giving of authority to the BofE for seting interest rates (summat the tories explicitly denounced time and time again) Cross


none of these things are boasted about primarily because of money spent.

but there is much to be proud of in terms of choices made with money too...

the national minimum wage (the tories fought tooth and nail against this and said it would destroy the economy - will they now scrap it?) tick
over 2000 surestart centres (again - consistently opposed by the tories - will they now close them?) cross
overseas aid budget more than doubled Massive cross charity begins at home
Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries. cross cross cross why lend if they cannot pay back!!
nursery education now at 3yrs would be a tick if it was education not organised play time

(just to scratch the surface)

More crosses than ticks I'm afraid

[thebish]

4. It's important that we get away from the spend spend spend/legislate legislate legislate mentality that has so blighted us in the last 13 years. I believe a government under DC would do that.

Would you have blighted the banking industry by legislating more?

Until 2009 mid-crash, our budget deficit was lower than it had been between 1991 and 1997...remind me how that fits into spend, spend, spend...

I was talking more about criminal justice legislation.

It's clear that more banking regulation would have been desirable - I think everyone has learnt the lesson there. And even then it is questionable how much good we'd have done if we'd regulated and the rest of the world hadn't.

1997-2009 were supposed to be the boom years, unlike 1991-1997. Surely there's something wrong if you have such strong, sustained growth and yet you're still addicted to overspending?

It's also a question of attitude - all of this government's boasts have been in terms of £s spent.

not so... that's a preposterous claim...

The Good Friday Agreement Tick
Devolution in scotland and wales (and now NI) Tick
International leadership on solutions to the world credit crisis Big cross
International leadership with europe on Climate Change big cross
Restoring city-wide government to London who cares cross
the equality and human rights commission Cross
scrapping section 28 cross
introducing civil partnerships not important
the giving of authority to the BofE for seting interest rates (summat the tories explicitly denounced time and time again) Cross


none of these things are boasted about primarily because of money spent.

but there is much to be proud of in terms of choices made with money too...

the national minimum wage (the tories fought tooth and nail against this and said it would destroy the economy - will they now scrap it?) tick
over 2000 surestart centres (again - consistently opposed by the tories - will they now close them?) cross
overseas aid budget more than doubled Massive cross charity begins at home
Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries. cross cross cross why lend if they cannot pay back!!
nursery education now at 3yrs would be a tick if it was education not organised play time

(just to scratch the surface)

More crosses than ticks I'm afraid

what's your problem with:

1. section 28 being abolished
2. surestart centres


would you really give control of interest rates back to the governement of the day?


as for "charity begins at home" - nuff said - I despair....
as for your comments about international debt - you CLEARLY have no grasp of what it was about - it was repaid MANY times over.

what kind of "education" would the hoboh party inflict on 3yr olds?

[William the White]

William, couple of questions if you would

In what way was it great?

Would you keep open uneconomic pits 'just' to provide work? (yes/no will suffice )

In the same way the Great War was - its length, the damage and hurt it caused.

Will answer if I can have more than yes/no.

[CAPSLOCK]

William, couple of questions if you would

In what way was it great?

Would you keep open uneconomic pits 'just' to provide work? (yes/no will suffice )

In the same way the Great War was - its length, the damage and hurt it caused.

Will answer if I can have more than yes/no.

No

[Bruce Rioja]

No lessons to be learned from the past, Bruce? Ever? How on earth do you manage to prevent yourself making the same mistake twice?

Of course, and my personal apology to you re: the terse tone of my earlier response (I'd just opened the letter re: my op date being shifted yet again).
Of course we learn from experience, I trust others to do that too and not to make the same mistakes. And that's what pisses me off about Brown, other than for his red-faced apology after he called that old lass in Rochdale a "bigot", I'm yet to hear him admit to a single mistake - not even losing more on our gold reserves by selling them off at the bottom of the market than Lamont lost on Black Wednesday.
My decision has been made by what's offered going forward, not what's happened in the past; and let's face it no-one's free of culpability.

[keveh]

test

[jaffka]

test

it is working again, well done

[ratbert]

Well looking at the TW figures above, there'll be a lot of celebrating/depression/confusion tonight, tomorrow and possibly beyond.

I'll predict the Conservatives short by between 25 and 9 seats and Brown trying to strike a deal with the Lib Dems tomorrow whilst the Tories say they have first dibs on power.

Whatever happens it won't be dull!

[William the White]

Voted this morning before going into the uni.

decided to give Labour a try this time.

[Bruce Rioja]

Nice debating skills on show here by the BNP's candidate for Romford

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/ ... 663681.stm

[Lord Kangana]

I'm stuck ill in bed with some virus or other that started yesterday. I couldn't even contemplate going down to the polling station. I hope thi doesn't make a difference.

[CAPSLOCK]

Nice debating skills on show here by the BNP's candidate for Romford

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/ ... 663681.stm

Fire with fire n all that

[Hoboh]

what's your problem with:

1. section 28 being abolished
2. surestart centres


would you really give control of interest rates back to the governement of the day?


as for "charity begins at home" - nuff said - I despair....
as for your comments about international debt - you CLEARLY have no grasp of what it was about - it was repaid MANY times over.

what kind of "education" would the hoboh party inflict on 3yr olds?

I don't really have a problem with abolishing section 28 although in my opinion Gay rights and Gayness in general is gaining far too much prominence in today's society considering the vast population is heterosexual, maybe a bit less of in your face and Peter Tatchall might be in order. As I said no real "problem" with it.

Surestart is a new cop out by a government to give the impression that it has the child's interest at heart, covering up for its lack of spend,spend, spend in real nursery education and schools (note how small scale this great plan is)

I believe that not to be in control of one of the main weapons in a Chancellors armoury to be ludicrous, yes I do. It's a bit like asking the USA to keep a nuclear deterrent on our behalf but only use it when they feel it's right to so.

With the state of housing, employment and loads of child poverty action groups (with others) reminding us daily of the plight of family's and old folk over here I don't think it is morally right of a government to be spending vast sums overseas.
A governments priority is to look after the welfare, safety and defence of the people that elect it, it organises, facilitates and run services to this end, now't else.
On the other hand I believe it is the moral duty as individuals to look after fellow humans but this is on a personal level via time,expertise or simply donating.
I think the moral obligations to others should be mainly the preserve of the Church (and being honest here most of them ain't very Christian raising money for leaky church roofs instead of starving Africans )
Sorry?? paid back??? Are you referring to the fact most of these poor unfortunate country's chose merely to keep paying off interest ad infinitum because it was the cheapest option rather than paying back any of the capital? Whose fault is that then?
I believe more should be done to educate kids with the very very basics from 3-5, the big gap in ability would be less then at all levels as they progress through different schools.
T.B.H I think we mollycoddle them far to much now.

broken a life time habit time of never voting Tory, believe it or not.