The Politics Thread

[Worthy4England]

I'm sure they would - but Cameron won't give them that (or at least I will be very very surprised if he does!) - and Brown hasn't got the seats.... they'd need all the other iddly-piddly parties too...

Lib + Lab = 315, SNP = 6 (might be able to swing them, given there's been some devolution under Labour). SD&LP + Green (might work for them) would be another 4...

Only one short there...

I suspect the fact that both Tory and Labour governments won't even offer a referendum (given a choice), should tell everyone, all they need to know.

[thebish]

I'm sure they would - but Cameron won't give them that (or at least I will be very very surprised if he does!) - and Brown hasn't got the seats.... they'd need all the other iddly-piddly parties too...

Lib + Lab = 315, SNP = 6 (might be able to swing them, given there's been some devolution under Labour). SD&LP + Green (might work for them) would be another 4...

Only one short there...

I suspect the fact that both Tory and Labour governments won't even offer a referendum (given a choice), should tell everyone, all they need to know.

haven't labour already offered a referendum?

[thebish]

I'm sure they would - but Cameron won't give them that (or at least I will be very very surprised if he does!) - and Brown hasn't got the seats.... they'd need all the other iddly-piddly parties too...

Lib + Lab = 315, SNP = 6 (might be able to swing them, given there's been some devolution under Labour). SD&LP + Green (might work for them) would be another 4...

Only one short there...

I suspect the fact that both Tory and Labour governments won't even offer a referendum (given a choice), should tell everyone, all they need to know.

yeah - one short - but then the govt is hamstrung even if they find that extra vote by its own backbenchers - both labour and lib dem - and the whole thing becomes an unworkable nightmare..... (as John major found)

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I'm sure they would - but Cameron won't give them that (or at least I will be very very surprised if he does!) - and Brown hasn't got the seats.... they'd need all the other iddly-piddly parties too...

Lib + Lab = 315, SNP = 6 (might be able to swing them, given there's been some devolution under Labour). SD&LP + Green (might work for them) would be another 4...

Only one short there...

I suspect the fact that both Tory and Labour governments won't even offer a referendum (given a choice), should tell everyone, all they need to know.

yeah - one short - but then the govt is hamstrung even if they find that extra vote by its own backbenchers - both labour and lib dem - and the whole thing becomes an unworkable nightmare..... (as John major found)

It's technically one short, but not with the Sinn Fein abstainers considered, right?

Anyway, I'm baffled at how the Lib Dems could consider helping DC at the moment.

I know I have expressed some distaste for the backroom deals involved in hung parliaments, but there is something irresistibly exciting about the high politics of it all.

[thebish]

It's technically one short, but not with the Sinn Fein abstainers considered, right?

Anyway, I'm baffled at how the Lib Dems could consider helping DC at the moment.

I know I have expressed some distaste for the backroom deals involved in hung parliaments, but there is something irresistibly exciting about the high politics of it all.

hmmm - given that millions of us saw them both live on Telly telling us how the other was not to be trusted on the economy or anything else for that matter!

[Worthy4England]

I'm sure they would - but Cameron won't give them that (or at least I will be very very surprised if he does!) - and Brown hasn't got the seats.... they'd need all the other iddly-piddly parties too...

Lib + Lab = 315, SNP = 6 (might be able to swing them, given there's been some devolution under Labour). SD&LP + Green (might work for them) would be another 4...

Only one short there...

I suspect the fact that both Tory and Labour governments won't even offer a referendum (given a choice), should tell everyone, all they need to know.

haven't labour already offered a referendum?

Yes, but I think the wider issue is "on what exactly?"

Agree with your other point regarding coralling the Labour back-benchers to vote for the change.

The fundamental issue is how you can get 600+ people to vote for something most of them don't want to put to 20-odd million people who might.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Incidentally, should we take rumours of DC's offering of the Home Secretary position to the Lib Dems as an admission of Grayling's uselessness?

[Worthy4England]

Incidentally, should we take rumours of DC's offering of the Home Secretary position to the Lib Dems as an admission of Grayling's uselessness?

Dunno, I'm surprised that he didn't offer Vince Cable the job of Chancellor.

It is (in the absence of any footy to watch) enthralling stuff.

There's a demo just hit central London demanding electoral reform, just parked outside Lib Dem HQ - all on Sky now, but they've got a fair turnout in a short timeframe...edit - maybe not such a turnout...sounded louder than the number of people there.

All on Sky News atm.

[Tombwfc]

Who's that doing the interview now? What a bitch.

[Worthy4England]

Who's that doing the interview now? What a bitch.

I'd have slapped her by now.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Does anyone really think there's a genuine popular demand for PR?

And I'm talking about something more than a general post-expenses anti-establishment backlash.

[thebish]

Does anyone really think there's a genuine popular demand for PR?

And I'm talking about something more than a general post-expenses anti-establishment backlash.

yeah - I do.

[bobo the clown]

The fiasco we are currently watching would be inevitable ... with bells on ... in any PR type system.

Having worked in both Italy and Israel over many years I've wittnessed the bllx it creates where a handful of narrow, single issue, extreme parties always hold final sway & how we can want that is beyond me.

The sudden death-bed conversion of Labour is typical of how they've behaved over the past 13 years. They had all that time to do it & now, suddenly, they believe in it ... a bit ... maybe ... possibly.

Anyway, I do generally try to keep off this thread ... I'll now revert to type.

[Lord Kangana]

Yup from me, and always wanted it. Speaking to people it seems a fairly common request. Largely irrelevant as to the reasons, otherwise universal suffrage, votes for women and the emancipation proclomation could all be classed as "anti-establishment backlashes".

[thebish]

The fiasco we are currently watching would be inevitable ... with bells on ... in any PR type system.

not really - this "fiasco" was caused by the old FPTP system surely?

and under this system - the party that came THIRD seems to have a whole lot more say than the party that came second - which seems a bit tit-over-arse to me...

[Worthy4England]

Does anyone really think there's a genuine popular demand for PR?

And I'm talking about something more than a general post-expenses anti-establishment backlash.

Not sure to be honest how widespread the demand is.

A couple of observations though.

Neither Labour or the last Tory governments ever got more than 50% of the vote - quite a few occasions they had less than 40% (Don't think any of Labour's administrations got over 40), which means that there's always going to be 60% of the voting population who don't want your policies - that's hardly a resounding mandate from "the Country".

When talking about share of the vote, if you divide the votes cast by the number of seats, Cons would have got 254 seats, Labour 204 seats and Lib Dems 162 - which makes their "third place by a long way" comments seem a bit thin.

The current approach to "constituency" distorts things immensely. Let's say for example, my mate Worthy (not me you understand), a staunch Labour supporter, wanted to show his displeasure of Labour (or a particular nearly ex, Prime Minister), but lives in a Labour stronghold with Cons a solid but distant second and Lib Dems third. Completely useless casting a "protest vote" for Lib Dem, who might have been Worthy's second pick, as they're a long way third, and never going to cast a vote for Cons, just on the off chance lots of people thought the same thing as Worthy and they got let in. So poor Worthy would be left with either Labour or vote for some non-entity.

If there's no real demand, why do the two main parties not just throw a referendum and have done - would put it to bed fairly quickly and take it off the agenda? The answer probably is, that they know what the answer would be and that there's a fair chance people would go for it, which would leave either the Tory's and/or Labour losing their birth-right...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I suppose where I'm coming from is that I get the impression that at least 50% of people didn't even know what a hung parliament is until the last fortnight.

It's difficult then to imagine that a majority can seriously know what PR is and actively want it.

[Lord Kangana]

Now then, whilst we're on PR:

Nick Clegg and Menzies Campbell have continued the position of Charles Kennedy of not being prepared to form a coalition with either main party and of voting against any Queen's Speech unless there was an unambiguous commitment in it to introduce proportional representation.

Its from Wiki, I didn't know this was the case, and am not sure whether its verifiable. But, lets just run with it for a minute...

That would have been an empty threat in any of the previous 3 elections. Right now, if its a genuine, immovable position, and running with the twin idea that Labour will probably vote against the Queens speech out of badness, clearly theres some substance to Dave's approach to the Libdems. If its non-negotiable, all I can conclude is either there'll be some movement on PR, or there'll be no government.

Interesting times.

[Bruce Rioja]

Interesting times.

Interesting? I'll say. I've never in any aspect of my life seen the tail wag the dog quite like it!

[Worthy4England]

I suppose where I'm coming from is that I get the impression that at least 50% of people didn't even know what a hung parliament is until the last fortnight.

It's difficult then to imagine that a majority can seriously know what PR is and actively want it.

I'm not sure about this one Mummy. If they don't know what it is, then it would probably follow that they actively don't want it.

The problem when you start heading down the "half the people didn't know" route - not just for hung parliament and/or PR - is that you would probably find that half the people couldn't tell you half of the main policies of all three parties (or even the one that they voted for).

Maybe we should start testing people (written test) before allowing them to vote.