Today I'm angry about.....

[Hoboh]

This is the sort of name that would put one off drinking it (apart from the fact it is about the lowest quality of German wine (tafelwein being a product of the European Community). I wasn't quite so keen on pork when they call it swine flesh and liver cow's lights. Still the beer is good over there.

Well, the wine buffs seem to know all about it. They can even spell it correctly.

All that matters TD is if you enjoyed it.

If you did, then none of the rest of it matters.

Apparently it goes especially well with rubbish cheese!

Absoflutely.

People who hijack threads when one already is in place!!

[Raven]

Bugs, not sure what sure which type but all of them, why do they have to land on freshly painted white walls!

[William the White]

British airways cabin crews!!

When they've ruined the company and are bleating about being on the dole or working for tutonic masters, they should hunt down and destroy the scumbag union leader instead of doing a Megson and blameing everyone else.

Just as a matter of interest, on plant hoboh, is it possible for management to be less fallible than God? Or are they always absolutely right, like the law of gravity and no worker is ever right to resist under any circumstances to resist in any way the worsening of their conditions of work, pay etc...

[Worthy4England]

British airways cabin crews!!

When they've ruined the company and are bleating about being on the dole or working for tutonic masters, they should hunt down and destroy the scumbag union leader instead of doing a Megson and blameing everyone else.

Just as a matter of interest, on plant hoboh, is it possible for management to be less fallible than God? Or are they always absolutely right, like the law of gravity and no worker is ever right to resist under any circumstances to resist in any way the worsening of their conditions of work, pay etc...

I thought Hoboh was a higher lifeform than a plant.

[William the White]

British airways cabin crews!!

When they've ruined the company and are bleating about being on the dole or working for tutonic masters, they should hunt down and destroy the scumbag union leader instead of doing a Megson and blameing everyone else.

Just as a matter of interest, on plant hoboh, is it possible for management to be less fallible than God? Or are they always absolutely right, like the law of gravity and no worker is ever right to resist under any circumstances to resist in any way the worsening of their conditions of work, pay etc...

I thought Hoboh was a higher lifeform than a plant.

but someway off 100% certain, I suspect?

[Worthy4England]

British airways cabin crews!!

When they've ruined the company and are bleating about being on the dole or working for tutonic masters, they should hunt down and destroy the scumbag union leader instead of doing a Megson and blameing everyone else.

Just as a matter of interest, on plant hoboh, is it possible for management to be less fallible than God? Or are they always absolutely right, like the law of gravity and no worker is ever right to resist under any circumstances to resist in any way the worsening of their conditions of work, pay etc...

I thought Hoboh was a higher lifeform than a plant.

but someway off 100% certain, I suspect?

Rather.

[bobo the clown]

British airways cabin crews!!

When they've ruined the company and are bleating about being on the dole or working for tutonic masters, they should hunt down and destroy the scumbag union leader instead of doing a Megson and blameing everyone else.

Just as a matter of interest, on plant hoboh, is it possible for management to be less fallible than God? Or are they always absolutely right, like the law of gravity and no worker is ever right to resist under any circumstances to resist in any way the worsening of their conditions of work, pay etc...

On the same basis, is it vaguely possible, ever, just as a proposal, that the workers are in the wrong on an issue ... or will it always be the fault of bad managers ?

Just as a principle mind.

You may answer via Twitter if you prefer.

[William the White]

British airways cabin crews!!

When they've ruined the company and are bleating about being on the dole or working for tutonic masters, they should hunt down and destroy the scumbag union leader instead of doing a Megson and blameing everyone else.

Just as a matter of interest, on plant hoboh, is it possible for management to be less fallible than God? Or are they always absolutely right, like the law of gravity and no worker is ever right to resist under any circumstances to resist in any way the worsening of their conditions of work, pay etc...

On the same basis, is it vaguely possible, ever, just as a proposal, that the workers are in the wrong on an issue ... or will it always be the fault of bad managers ?

Just as a principle mind.

You may answer via Twitter if you prefer.

don't do Twitter...

but, yes, I've criticised Trade Unions on here a number of times... and in forthright terms...

in particular, scargill's handling of the miners' strike...

[bobo the clown]

British airways cabin crews!!

When they've ruined the company and are bleating about being on the dole or working for tutonic masters, they should hunt down and destroy the scumbag union leader instead of doing a Megson and blameing everyone else.

Just as a matter of interest, on plant hoboh, is it possible for management to be less fallible than God? Or are they always absolutely right, like the law of gravity and no worker is ever right to resist under any circumstances to resist in any way the worsening of their conditions of work, pay etc...

On the same basis, is it vaguely possible, ever, just as a proposal, that the workers are in the wrong on an issue ... or will it always be the fault of bad managers ?

Just as a principle mind.

You may answer via Twitter if you prefer.

don't do Twitter...

but, yes, I've criticised Trade Unions on here a number of times... and in forthright terms...

in particular, scargill's handling of the miners' strike...

Then I do you an injustice.

I have a specialism in the Miner's Strike & how Scargill abused the natural inclination for the miners to 'go solid' by instinct and thus ruined a people by walking with their chins out into a pre-planned fight with Thatch. for his own political ends. The man should be hung.

I wrote my MA, on the very subject. I can go on about it for a very long time.


The Twitter reference waas an attempt at a topical joke. My apogies if that wasn't as clear as I intended..

[William the White]

British airways cabin crews!!

When they've ruined the company and are bleating about being on the dole or working for tutonic masters, they should hunt down and destroy the scumbag union leader instead of doing a Megson and blameing everyone else.

Just as a matter of interest, on plant hoboh, is it possible for management to be less fallible than God? Or are they always absolutely right, like the law of gravity and no worker is ever right to resist under any circumstances to resist in any way the worsening of their conditions of work, pay etc...

On the same basis, is it vaguely possible, ever, just as a proposal, that the workers are in the wrong on an issue ... or will it always be the fault of bad managers ?

Just as a principle mind.

You may answer via Twitter if you prefer.

don't do Twitter...

but, yes, I've criticised Trade Unions on here a number of times... and in forthright terms...

in particular, scargill's handling of the miners' strike...

Then I do you an injustice.

I have a specialism in the Miner's Strike & how Scargill abused the natural inclination for the miners to 'go solid' by instinct and thus ruined a people by walking with their chins out into a pre-planned fight with Thatch. for his own political ends. The man should be hung.

I wrote my MA, on the very subject. I can go on about it for a very long time.


The Twitter reference waas an attempt at a topical joke. My apogies if that wasn't as clear as I intended..

Pre-planned fight by Thatcher also - her planning better.

The previous exchange on here was about that. Scargill's refusal to go for a strike ballot he felt he might lose was the albatross around the miners' neck, kept notts in, led to the UDM and, eventually, the premature death of the british mining industry to the glee of the Tories...

It also made democracy the issue rather than the survival of mining communities, the coal industry as a whole etc... Scargill wanted to be the British Lenin, I guess... Turned out to be marginally less successful...

I can't remember which TUC leader it was recycled the First world War assessment of the British army as 'Lions led by donkeys...' but that cap fitted - the miners were heroic, their leadership unworthy of them... didn't stop me supporting the miners - i suspect we may disagree on this...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

British airways cabin crews!!

When they've ruined the company and are bleating about being on the dole or working for tutonic masters, they should hunt down and destroy the scumbag union leader instead of doing a Megson and blameing everyone else.

Just as a matter of interest, on plant hoboh, is it possible for management to be less fallible than God? Or are they always absolutely right, like the law of gravity and no worker is ever right to resist under any circumstances to resist in any way the worsening of their conditions of work, pay etc...

On the same basis, is it vaguely possible, ever, just as a proposal, that the workers are in the wrong on an issue ... or will it always be the fault of bad managers ?

Just as a principle mind.

You may answer via Twitter if you prefer.

don't do Twitter...

but, yes, I've criticised Trade Unions on here a number of times... and in forthright terms...

in particular, scargill's handling of the miners' strike...

How about workers themselves. rather than their political representatives?

(Incidentally, I don't get the Twitter reference either, Bobo?)

[Prufrock]

I often think people attacking striking workers seems short-sighted. For it to really affect you you must be a BA customer, which means you value the quality of the service, otherwise you would use a cheap carrier, and the cuts threatened will obviously affect that. Long term it would seem to be bad, and perhaps the short term inconvenience is worth enduring? I'm not massively clued up on the BA situation, so I may be wide of the mark here. Obviously the initial defence would be the cuts are necessary, or there would be no company at all, but is that really the case?

[William the White]

How about workers themselves. rather than their political representatives?

(Incidentally, I don't get the Twitter reference either, Bobo?)

Not sure what you mean by 'political' representatives... or 'workers themselves'... Especially in a discussion that started, at least, about trade union action in BA...

Don't think i could do much more criticism of either orthodox Labour politics or orthodox leninist ones without running out of breath... As you know, one of the main reasons I want PR is the purely selfish one of having a democratic party to the left of labour to which i could feel an allegiance...

But please elucidate - what do you mean by criticising 'workers themselves'? Their table manners? The smell of their socks? Their desire to work for a decent wage and live in a decent home? What is it you mean?

I ask sincerely...

[thebish]

(Incidentally, I don't get the Twitter reference either, Bobo?)

the twitter reference was a crafty dig at the union rep "twittering" the ins-and-outs of the negotiation with BA whilst the meeting was ongoing...

[bobo the clown]

I often think people attacking striking workers seems short-sighted. For it to really affect you you must be a BA customer, which means you value the quality of the service, otherwise you would use a cheap carrier, and the cuts threatened will obviously affect that. Long term it would seem to be bad, and perhaps the short term inconvenience is worth enduring? I'm not massively clued up on the BA situation, so I may be wide of the mark here. Obviously the initial defence would be the cuts are necessary, or there would be no company at all, but is that really the case?

Right .... firstly this should go onto the Politics thread. So this will be the last of it from me here.

I try not to use the Politics thread as I realised decades ago that people have their views and arguing against them is pointless as best, self-defeating more often.

Thirdly ... mummywciec .... the 'twitter' reference was a quick, supposedly amusing aside referencing to the recent, to be honest staggering, use of twitter by Derek Simpson from within the actual negotiating room. As crass a misuse of communications as I've ever heard of in 30+ years working in Industrial Relations. Had a member of the management side been doing that there would a, rightful, clamour for his dismissal.

Anyway, as a point of principle, when you need to explain a joke (twice) maybe it failed.

Finally, Pru' ... wow. Where to start ? Of course the business would not fold if the cabin crew remained at 16 per long-haul rather than the 15 BA have requested. But if a change that paltry leads to 15m sniping & bickering until the management eventually issued notice that it was coming, then that signifies a far deeper issue.

The far deeper issue is that BASSA has long been the plaything of far-left, Trot' based militancy. The BA Management, far from innocent themselves, have finally decided that they will get no-where trying to negotiate with them. Believe me, when Tony Woodley is your nice, easy-going, straightforward alternative then things are in a bad way. Why it would be that this group have developed a militancy is difficult to source, but certainly local union officials very often come to enjoy the trappings of being union first/employees second. Often they are as dim as Toc-H Lamps and have no real aim other than to continually remain on 'facility time' as they lurch from issue to issue. It becomes in their interest to create &/or maintain issues.

This is not the heroic unionism of theory, but the rather base reality of manipulation by power hungry numb-wits.

It's most pertinent to BA Management, that this has been agreed at Gatwick, at Stansted, at London City. It's been agreed at Heathrow with the baggage handlers (hardly roll-over pussies themselves) the ground staff and the pilots. Just this one group simply refuses to budge. The reasons are that their terms add to salaries of staggering amounts for what, in the end, are glorified bus conductors. A take-home equivalent (said that way as much 'income' is by way of perk & expense allowance) of a £70k salary is not uncommon for this group of workers. Now ... well done, over the years ... for winning those terms but when someone says "hey, we're losing £1.3m a day ... the good times are over" you really should consider discussing. BASSA have been fond of saying these changes were inposed on them, but only after 15 months of stonewalling.

Why do members allow themselves to be manipulated ? That's the thing of PhD.'s I'm afraid, but certainly the 'lions led by donkeys' idea tells only part of the story. You need a good number of donkeys to do that and there has to be a foolishness beyond simple analysis to comprehend. In the miners dispute the folk-lore of 'mining communities' is now passed into legend & that is certainly what it is. A proper review of the facts shows that this singularity requires manipulation & intimidation of people & their families, that goes unreported. I have details from the Durham field and South Wales which would show that many of the main area organisers abused their power, led intimidation gangs, manipulated the collected funds and food/clothes parcels in a way which would have done 1970/80's IRA proud. Arthur's palaces of South Yorks simply wouldn't speak with me.

Anyway, I hate the heaviness of all this, on an amateur basis. You'll take whatever side your predisposed to and nothing said here will alter anyone's views.

As WtW said, we may just have to disagree.


Right, that's it. No more from me. Believe and agree with who you will.

Now, I'll post another, more tangible "angry moment" now ....

[bobo the clown]

I bought a new lap-top a few weeks ago. Pretty close to top of the range it is a beauty to behold.

It's diamond clear screen gives HD quality output and it's in a very attractive deep-blue gloss casing. ... there's the rub .... the screen and casing pick up every single finger mark. I assume the designers felt that people would use their product wearing rubber gloves. The outside is beyond salvation & fortunately I don't really need to look at it while using it. The screen's OK when under normal use, but often the fingerprints and other marks shine through.

I don't expect a solution, but just need to vent about it for a bit.

[thebish]

I bought a new lap-top a few weeks ago. Pretty close to top of the range it is a beauty to behold.

It's diamond clear screen gives HD quality output and it's in a very attractive deep-blue gloss casing. ... there's the rub .... the screen and casing pick up every sinly finger mark. I assume the designers felt that people would use their product wearing rubber gloves. The outside is beyond salvation & fortuinately I don't really need to look at it while using it. The screen's OK when under normal use, but often the fingerprints and other marks shine through.

I don't expect a solution, but just need to vent about it for a bit.

encase the whole thing in a big see-through plastic bag as you use it - works a treat!

my kids use our laptop mostly - and it has chocolate and biscuit crumbs between the keys - and the fingerprints are enhanced by the added factor of cola-stickiness...

[Lord Kangana]

Thats a really good and long response bobo, but if BA want to make savings by cutting staff, why not start with the most expensive, say like Willy Walsh? That way, you could keep over 30 taxpayers working for every board member rid of. I don't expect you to agree. So perhaps I could say "hypocrite"?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Thirdly ... mummywciec .... the 'twitter' reference was a quick, supposedly amusing aside referencing to the recent, to be honest staggering, use of twitter by Derek Simpson from within the actual negotiating room. As crass a misuse of communications as I've ever heard of in 30+ years working in Industrial Relations. Had a member of the management side been doing that there would a, rightful, clamour for his dismissal.

Anyway, as a point of principle, when you need to explain a joke (twice) maybe it failed.

Sorry Bobo - the failure is your audience's. I managed to miss that story.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I bought a new lap-top a few weeks ago. Pretty close to top of the range it is a beauty to behold.

It's diamond clear screen gives HD quality output and it's in a very attractive deep-blue gloss casing. ... there's the rub .... the screen and casing pick up every single finger mark. I assume the designers felt that people would use their product wearing rubber gloves. The outside is beyond salvation & fortunately I don't really need to look at it while using it. The screen's OK when under normal use, but often the fingerprints and other marks shine through.

I don't expect a solution, but just need to vent about it for a bit.

Have you tried computer screen wipes? They do the job on mine.