new Muslim youth club just opened in Newcastle...

[thebish]

Ah, but the majority view isn't important

Just the view of the 'clever' folk

get a grip CAPS - nobody has said that the French are not legitimately passing this legislation.

[William the White]

it is just that when someone uses such a HUGE hammer to crack such a tiny nut - then my cynical mind wonders whether, in fact, there is summat else going on than that which has been declared...

What huge hammer is that then? Is the cynical thing that they're enacting the will of the people?

Opinion polls in France suggested that upwards of 57% of people were in favour of banning veils that cover the whole face or the more direct burqa focused questions - although the Indie seems to have found one with a lower figure (33%), there are other up at the 75-80% mark.

France isn't alone in these opinion polls (run by people like Harris - rather than the BNP)

The polls generally reflect the same in Italy, Germany, UK and other European Countries.

There is currently a bill going through the UK Parliament called the Face Coverings (Regulation) Bill, although as it's a Private Members Bill, it's unlikely to get anywhere near the statute books - as it's from an independent MP and not backed by any of the significant parties as far as I can tell.

the huge hammer is state legislation covering 99.997% of the population to whom it does not apply.

the cynical thing is dressing up a craven appeal to the french right wing as a noble measure for women's emancipation.

But wouldn't a poll of 57% reflect a view much wider than just the French right wing? (As far I I can see, there's been quite a few polls all pretty much coming out with a fairly clear majority...

Depends on the question being asked when it comes to polls... and democracy goes beyond head counting, as many, maybe most, people would recognise. A democracy that oppresses minorities is simply a numerical tyranny...

For myself, you only give orders about what people may or may not wear, that are significant in their cultural identity, for the most profound and compelling reasons... I don't believe those exist in France now, and I see no reason to believe that Sarkozy has found anything other than an election card to be played in the most typically cynical manner...

I may be wrong - could LK tell me if he is responding to a significant movement amongst french moslem women asking to be liberated from the burkha or other traditional dress? Is there any real sign that the Frnch state is riding to the rescue of women feeling oppressed? In these days, internet etc, it's impossible to keep people silent if there's a genuine movement amongst moslem women against traditional dress.

My guess is he's playing a game, and underneath is an agenda the french right do not feel powerful enough - as yet - to express openly... But they are looking forward to it... And so are their counterparts in the rest of Europe...

[Lord Kangana]

At the risk of repeating myself for the millionth time, I don't really care what Sarkozy's motivation is. And yes there are a significant number of muslim women who feel the veil to be oppressive. Under the circumstances, I'm with them. F*ck everyone else, so to speak.

[Worthy4England]

Indeed, I shall remember next time I break into someone's house and nick their telly, that I'm just an oppressed minority being persecuted by a numerical tyranny.

Polls could well be dependent on the question asked.

The question I'm referring to is "would you like to see the Muslim burqa banned in your country as has been proposed in France".

UK - Yes - 57%
France - Yes - about 70%
Italy - Yes - about 63%
Spain - Yes - about 65%
Germany - about 50% in favour with 15% not sure.

What I'm questioning is whether the "clever folk", as CAPS phrased it, aren't actually expressing a minority viewpoint.

[William the White]

At the risk of repeating myself for the millionth time, I don't really care what Sarkozy's motivation is. And yes there are a significant number of muslim women who feel the veil to be oppressive. Under the circumstances, I'm with them. F*ck everyone else, so to speak.

This seems to me to be the important point - unless I've missed something the emphasis so far has been on French women asserting their right to traditonal dress... Can you offer a link or two, I'd be v interested to read...

I don't think you are a sarkozy supporter, but i do think motivation is important... what is he doing here, why is he suddenly a supporter of the 'liberation' of moslem women... (It's almost a joke asking that question... so he has another game to play)...

[William the White]

Indeed, I shall remember next time I break into someone's house and nick their telly, that I'm just an oppressed minority being persecuted by a numerical tyranny.

Polls could well be dependent on the question asked.

The question I'm referring to is "would you like to see the Muslim burqa banned in your country as has been proposed in France".

UK - Yes - 57%
France - Yes - about 70%
Italy - Yes - about 63%
Spain - Yes - about 65%
Germany - about 50% in favour with 15% not sure.

What I'm questioning is whether the "clever folk", as CAPS phrased it, aren't actually expressing a minority viewpoint.

almost certainly so, if the question is expressed with that degree of banality...

Express it as 'should moslem women be forbidden to wear traditional dress?' and it MIGHT be different... might not... but we both agree the phrasing is important, and it's difficult to find a neutral one... Doesn't alter my basic point... don't know what the telly thing means... I suspect it isn't worth it, but it you want to you could tease it out for me...

[Lord Kangana]

http://www.unc.edu/depts/europe/francop ... mwomen.pdf

Might be a start.

Look, France is a very different country to Britain. I have to wear speedos in the local pool as they don't allow swimming shorts (this is standard in most of France). I've yet to hear anyone defending my right to not embarass myself in public. Ergo, I'm being kept at home. So a law designed to free me in public is really oppressing me. etc

[Worthy4England]

Indeed, I shall remember next time I break into someone's house and nick their telly, that I'm just an oppressed minority being persecuted by a numerical tyranny.

Polls could well be dependent on the question asked.

The question I'm referring to is "would you like to see the Muslim burqa banned in your country as has been proposed in France".

UK - Yes - 57%
France - Yes - about 70%
Italy - Yes - about 63%
Spain - Yes - about 65%
Germany - about 50% in favour with 15% not sure.

What I'm questioning is whether the "clever folk", as CAPS phrased it, aren't actually expressing a minority viewpoint.

almost certainly so, if the question is expressed with that degree of banality...

Express it as 'should moslem women be forbidden to wear traditional dress?' and it MIGHT be different... might not... but we both agree the phrasing is important, and it's difficult to find a neutral one... Doesn't alter my basic point... don't know what the telly thing means... I suspect it isn't worth it, but it you want to you could tease it out for me...

The poll was by Harris for the FT. They're generally pretty good at asking "straightforwards" questions (IMO). You could phrase is as whether they should be forbidden to wear traditional dress, but I'm not sure that wouldn't cloud the question, given that most of the debate seems to be around the covering of the face - rather than what's covering the rest of the body.

My point is if the French think it's some sort of threat to their cultural identity or that it would help stop oppression or that they just don't like the idea - that's their prerogative to do so.

The telly thing would be an example of a minorty (housebreakers) being oppressed by legislation from a numerical tyranny (people generally not wanting their TV's nicked) - or is it only tyrranical when it suits a particular line of argument?

[William the White]

Just to clear up what residual suspicions there may be - I don't consider telly-stealers an oppressed minority...

Worthy - you really can do better than that...

[Worthy4England]

Just to clear up what residual suspicions there may be - I don't consider telly-stealers an oppressed minority...

Worthy - you really can do better than that...

I think you could also do better with weighing your language to fit the percieved level of injustice. When people go to the ends of a spectrum, other will head to the immediately opposite end. Numerical tyranny indeed....

[William the White]

Just to clear up what residual suspicions there may be - I don't consider telly-stealers an oppressed minority...

Worthy - you really can do better than that...

I think you could also do better with weighing your language to fit the percieved level of injustice. When people go to the ends of a spectrum, other will head to the immediately opposite end. Numerical tyranny indeed....

a persistent transgression - i admit - mea culpa!

but I'll stand by my view that a democracy that doesn't respect and attempt to encompass minority rights is - actually - simply that... A numerical tyranny... For me democracy is defined by rights of expression, identity and culture for minorities... as is freedom of speech (to hark back to previous discussions)... democracy that is meaningful gives rights to those that are not you... just as free speech is for those you don't agree with...

[TANGODANCER]

Didn't the Yanks used to have a programme about this years ago wth Gene Barry? Burqa's Law?

[Worthy4England]

Just to clear up what residual suspicions there may be - I don't consider telly-stealers an oppressed minority...

Worthy - you really can do better than that...

I think you could also do better with weighing your language to fit the percieved level of injustice. When people go to the ends of a spectrum, other will head to the immediately opposite end. Numerical tyranny indeed....

a persistent transgression - i admit - mea culpa!

but I'll stand by my view that a democracy that doesn't respect and attempt to encompass minority rights is - actually - simply that... A numerical tyranny... For me democracy is defined by rights of expression, identity and culture for minorities... as is freedom of speech (to hark back to previous discussions)... democracy that is meaningful gives rights to those that are not you... just as free speech is for those you don't agree with...

It's the tyrannical bit I'm against. To be tyrannical, there should really be some evidence of - well - tyranny.

Does your definition of democracy relating to culture and identity incorporate the rights of individuals from countries where the legal age of conesent is lower than our current age of consent to have sex with minors? Does it incorporate those cultural quirks from places where they can chop the hands of people for stealing? I suspect the answer is no - so what you're actually advocating is democracy for those things you happen to think are "right and proper".

[Lord Kangana]

Just to clear up what residual suspicions there may be - I don't consider telly-stealers an oppressed minority...

Worthy - you really can do better than that...

I think you could also do better with weighing your language to fit the percieved level of injustice. When people go to the ends of a spectrum, other will head to the immediately opposite end. Numerical tyranny indeed....

a persistent transgression - i admit - mea culpa!

but I'll stand by my view that a democracy that doesn't respect and attempt to encompass minority rights is - actually - simply that... A numerical tyranny... For me democracy is defined by rights of expression, identity and culture for minorities... as is freedom of speech (to hark back to previous discussions)... democracy that is meaningful gives rights to those that are not you... just as free speech is for those you don't agree with...

Now she gets on my nerves (like many people) but heres a part of the minority you are professing to protect (or at least their right to freedom of expression of their culture) and yet...

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 43375.html

[Lord Kangana]

Doubly irritating and yet doubly right it would seem:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 75108.html

[William the White]

Doubly irritating and yet doubly right it would seem:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 75108.html

i think this is an excellent article - most of which I'd agree with very easily...

Have I missed it - I can't find any of it arguing for the sarkozy 'solution'? She is making an argument - good, I'm in total favour of that - delighted - but she isn't advocating legislation is she?

[Tombwfc]

I'm not in generally in favour of introducing any laws that limit peoples right to do what they want unless it's obviously neccesary (cutting off peoples hands for example).

I'm also not sure how you can have a nation-wide vote on something that affects so few of the population. If there's an uprising within Muslim women to stop wearing the burkha, then that's up to them.

Incidentally, I think there'd be significant support for outlawing a lot of trivial things if you put it up to a public vote.

[Il Pirate]

http://www.unc.edu/depts/europe/francop ... mwomen.pdf

Might be a start.

Look, France is a very different country to Britain. I have to wear speedos in the local pool as they don't allow swimming shorts (this is standard in most of France). I've yet to hear anyone defending my right to not embarass myself in public. Ergo, I'm being kept at home. So a law designed to free me in public is really oppressing me. etc

Very true. I'd like to see them ban those fat German and Dutch blokes in their budgie smugglers. Totaly obscene. Recently I saw a huge fella in a yellow velvet, yes, velvet pair; which looked like a thong. Put Mrs Pirate right off her brie and jambon. When he got out of the pool the trunks were stuck to his budgie. No shame them europeans...............

[thebish]

Arguments about polls and numerical tyranny are really a bit of a red herring.

unless you are CAPS and you match your opinions to the majority polls for fear of appearing to be "clever".....

then this thread is simply a discussion about what France are doing and what we think about it. It has never been about whether they are entitled to bring in this legislation or about whether they have the necessary mandate to do so.

My question has been about what it will achieve
My secondary question was about the motivation

LK says motivation matters not - and one one level I agree - good things can come from poorly motivated action, he's right - but on another level - I think it does matter, because when you go to such an extreme as to push through nationwide legislation on an issue that does not apply to 99.997% of the population - then it raises the question as to what else you will do in order to satisfy that same motivation. And if that motivation is to pander to the far right (a theory) - then for my part - I think that is a concern and worth keeping an eye on.

as for the effectiveness - well, I have explained my view - I cannot see how this legislation will not simply make life measurably worse for women already oppressed. Whether this (it seems to me) obvious fact is offset by some kind of longer-term non-specific symbolic societal benefit is, of course, a question that could be pursued - but if it were to register on the balance scales in my reckoning - then I would need a much clearer description if what that longer-term non-specific symbolic societal benefit actually is intended to be.

[bobo the clown]

Very true. I'd like to see them ban those fat German and Dutch blokes in their budgie smugglers. Totaly obscene. Recently I saw a huge fella in a yellow velvet, yes, velvet pair; which looked like a thong. Put Mrs Pirate right off her brie and jambon. When he got out of the pool the trunks were stuck to his budgie. No shame them europeans...............

Funniest post for weeks.

Ted Heath did this to us.

T'eath out !