Today I'm angry about.....

[Worthy4England]

Just imagine being instructed "how to live your life", by a bloke that's rarely been outside the confines of a University establishment. I think not.

Much like my claim that all judges should live at least two years on a housing estate before dispensing justice on criminals. Book learning and the idea that all people are going to see and behave reasonably is fine in an ideal world. Pity we don't live in one.

I've visted judges accommodation in Salford.

It could only be described as opulent and had it's own "staff", wine-cellars etc.

Now I can see the line of thought that says having a judge in the nearest £60 a night hotel, might not be a good idea, if they're sitting in cases where the possibility of retribution is a factor. But you had to see this place to believe it. The could have just as easily made the 4 bed detached next door secure.

So far removed from the real world to be incomprehensible.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Just imagine being instructed "how to live your life", by a bloke that's rarely been outside the confines of a University establishment. I think not.

Much like my claim that all judges should live at least two years on a housing estate before dispensing justice on criminals. Book learning and the idea that all people are going to see and behave reasonably is fine in an ideal world. Pity we don't live in one.

I've visted judges accommodation in Salford.

It could only be described as opulent and had it's own "staff", wine-cellars etc.

Now I can see the line of thought that says having a judge in the nearest £60 a night hotel, might not be a good idea, if they're sitting in cases where the possibility of retribution is a factor. But you had to see this place to believe it. The could have just as easily made the 4 bed detached next door secure.

So far removed from the real world to be incomprehensible.

Ok, I'm not going to say that's right/desirable etc, but there does have to be some incentive if a judge is to give up a lucrative career at the Bar in order to take up that post.

[Big_Girl_Oral_Explosion]

Just imagine being instructed "how to live your life", by a bloke that's rarely been outside the confines of a University establishment. I think not.

I've read a lot of Dawkins and seen a number of his documentaries. Can't say he has ever come over as dictating how one should live their lives.

However if one thinks that taking apart ideas that the earth is only 6000 years old and ridiculing those that want that sort of fairy story taught in main stream schools is dictating to people. I for one would want more people like him coming out and doing it.

[thebish]

Just imagine being instructed "how to live your life", by a bloke that's rarely been outside the confines of a University establishment. I think not.

I've read a lot of Dawkins and seen a number of his documentries. Can't say he has ever come over as dictating how one should live their lives.

However if one thinks that and taking apart ideas that the earth is only 6000 years old and ridiculing those that want that sort of fairy storys taught in main stream schools is dictating to people then I for one would want more people like him coming out and doing it.

he's a clever bloke - but he is very selective with his targets - many of them being "Aunt Sallies".

[Worthy4England]

Just imagine being instructed "how to live your life", by a bloke that's rarely been outside the confines of a University establishment. I think not.

Much like my claim that all judges should live at least two years on a housing estate before dispensing justice on criminals. Book learning and the idea that all people are going to see and behave reasonably is fine in an ideal world. Pity we don't live in one.

I've visted judges accommodation in Salford.

It could only be described as opulent and had it's own "staff", wine-cellars etc.

Now I can see the line of thought that says having a judge in the nearest £60 a night hotel, might not be a good idea, if they're sitting in cases where the possibility of retribution is a factor. But you had to see this place to believe it. The could have just as easily made the 4 bed detached next door secure.

So far removed from the real world to be incomprehensible.

Ok, I'm not going to say that's right/desirable etc, but there does have to be some incentive if a judge is to give up a lucrative career at the Bar in order to take up that post.

That would be in addition to the £138k - £240k salary I suppose?

[thebish]

Just imagine being instructed "how to live your life", by a bloke that's rarely been outside the confines of a University establishment. I think not.

Much like my claim that all judges should live at least two years on a housing estate before dispensing justice on criminals. Book learning and the idea that all people are going to see and behave reasonably is fine in an ideal world. Pity we don't live in one.

I've visted judges accommodation in Salford.

It could only be described as opulent and had it's own "staff", wine-cellars etc.

Now I can see the line of thought that says having a judge in the nearest £60 a night hotel, might not be a good idea, if they're sitting in cases where the possibility of retribution is a factor. But you had to see this place to believe it. The could have just as easily made the 4 bed detached next door secure.

So far removed from the real world to be incomprehensible.

Ok, I'm not going to say that's right/desirable etc, but there does have to be some incentive if a judge is to give up a lucrative career at the Bar in order to take up that post.

That would be in addition to the £138k - £240k salary I suppose?

tsk - that's nothing - Nicky Hunt used to get that each week...

[TANGODANCER]

Ok, I'm not going to say that's right/desirable etc, but there does have to be some incentive if a judge is to give up a lucrative career at the Bar in order to take up that post.

Missed point Mummy. Judges lawyers,barristers etc rarely have any real grasp of the side of life they dispense justice to. If a judge got mugged at knifepoint he'd be much more inclined to sympathise with the victim than the mugger. I doubt many stockbroker belts share much in common with Johnson Fold, Tongue Moor or New Bury etc . A reformed criminal is the man to listen to on the wrongs of crime, not a judge who tries someone based on a university education. I am full of admiration for anyone who betters themselves to any degree by pursuing education, but there's a vast difference between lives in the real world.

[thebish]

Ok, I'm not going to say that's right/desirable etc, but there does have to be some incentive if a judge is to give up a lucrative career at the Bar in order to take up that post.

Missed point Mummy. Judges lawyers,barristers etc rarely have any real grasp of the side of life they dispense justice to. If a judge got mugged at knifepoint he'd be much more inclined to sympathise with the victim than the mugger. I doubt many stockbroker belts share much in common with Johnson Fold, Tongue Moor or New Bury etc . A reformed criminal is the man to listen to on the wrongs of crime, not a judge who tries someone based on a university education. I am full of admiration for anyone who betters themselves to any degree by pursuing education, but there's a vast difference between lives in the real world.

you don't get to be a judge simply based on a university education.

[Worthy4England]

Ok, I'm not going to say that's right/desirable etc, but there does have to be some incentive if a judge is to give up a lucrative career at the Bar in order to take up that post.

Missed point Mummy. Judges lawyers,barristers etc rarely have any real grasp of the side of life they dispense justice to. If a judge got mugged at knifepoint he'd be much more inclined to sympathise with the victim than the mugger. I doubt many stockbroker belts share much in common with Johnson Fold, Tongue Moor or New Bury etc . A reformed criminal is the man to listen to on the wrongs of crime, not a judge who tries someone based on a university education. I am full of admiration for anyone who betters themselves to any degree by pursuing education, but there's a vast difference between lives in the real world.

you don't get to be a judge simply based on a university education.

Indeed, you do need to show you have no concept of "real world", somewhere along the line.

[TANGODANCER]

Ok, I'm not going to say that's right/desirable etc, but there does have to be some incentive if a judge is to give up a lucrative career at the Bar in order to take up that post.

Missed point Mummy. Judges lawyers,barristers etc rarely have any real grasp of the side of life they dispense justice to. If a judge got mugged at knifepoint he'd be much more inclined to sympathise with the victim than the mugger. I doubt many stockbroker belts share much in common with Johnson Fold, Tongue Moor or New Bury etc . A reformed criminal is the man to listen to on the wrongs of crime, not a judge who tries someone based on a university education. I am full of admiration for anyone who betters themselves to any degree by pursuing education, but there's a vast difference between lives in the real world.

you don't get to be a judge simply based on a university education.

Quite, but I'm sure you see the point.

[thebish]

Ok, I'm not going to say that's right/desirable etc, but there does have to be some incentive if a judge is to give up a lucrative career at the Bar in order to take up that post.

Missed point Mummy. Judges lawyers,barristers etc rarely have any real grasp of the side of life they dispense justice to. If a judge got mugged at knifepoint he'd be much more inclined to sympathise with the victim than the mugger. I doubt many stockbroker belts share much in common with Johnson Fold, Tongue Moor or New Bury etc . A reformed criminal is the man to listen to on the wrongs of crime, not a judge who tries someone based on a university education. I am full of admiration for anyone who betters themselves to any degree by pursuing education, but there's a vast difference between lives in the real world.

you don't get to be a judge simply based on a university education.

Quite, but I'm sure you see the point.

I see your point up to a point - but I think you overstate your case. Judges do not have carte-blanche over sentencing - much of it is dictated to them by government.

[Prufrock]

Ok, I'm not going to say that's right/desirable etc, but there does have to be some incentive if a judge is to give up a lucrative career at the Bar in order to take up that post.

Missed point Mummy. Judges lawyers,barristers etc rarely have any real grasp of the side of life they dispense justice to. If a judge got mugged at knifepoint he'd be much more inclined to sympathise with the victim than the mugger. I doubt many stockbroker belts share much in common with Johnson Fold, Tongue Moor or New Bury etc . A reformed criminal is the man to listen to on the wrongs of crime, not a judge who tries someone based on a university education. I am full of admiration for anyone who betters themselves to any degree by pursuing education, but there's a vast difference between lives in the real world.

You don't just get to go to uni then become a judge! You have to spend years in the courts, seeing and hearing things that are going to make your view of the world darker not lighter. Added to the fact judges are often limited by the limits of sentencing they can give, from laws they don't write, and I think you have the wrong target for your ire.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

That would be in addition to the £138k - £240k salary I suppose?

Is that how much it is?! Ok, my fault... I was labouring under the idea that these guys take a pay cut to do it.

Ok, I'm not going to say that's right/desirable etc, but there does have to be some incentive if a judge is to give up a lucrative career at the Bar in order to take up that post.

Missed point Mummy. Judges lawyers,barristers etc rarely have any real grasp of the side of life they dispense justice to. If a judge got mugged at knifepoint he'd be much more inclined to sympathise with the victim than the mugger. I doubt many stockbroker belts share much in common with Johnson Fold, Tongue Moor or New Bury etc . A reformed criminal is the man to listen to on the wrongs of crime, not a judge who tries someone based on a university education. I am full of admiration for anyone who betters themselves to any degree by pursuing education, but there's a vast difference between lives in the real world.

OK, a couple of points, both based on my own experience, which is limited, but I have observed a lot of these people and got to know them:

1. I'm not sure where this idea that a judge is more likely to sympathize with the mugger than the mugged comes from? It's just not something I recognise from my own experience. How would the situation be better if we had a reformed mugger passing judgment on the mugger - do you think he's more likely to understand the victim or the mugger's point of view?!

2. I actually think that a lot of judges are some of the most 'in touch' people you could imagine, exposed, as they are, to the most harrowing tales of dysfunction, pain and suffering on a daily basis. I'm not sure I'd have the stomach for it. Your average judge has far more contact with the 'bottom end' of society than your average middle class type.

[TANGODANCER]

You don't just get to go to uni then become a judge! You have to spend years in the courts, seeing and hearing things that are going to make your view of the world darker not lighter. Added to the fact judges are often limited by the limits of sentencing they can give, from laws they don't write, and I think you have the wrong target for your ire.

It isn't a target for ire Pru, just my comments. Not many of those who write the laws do so from experience of breaking them either I'd assume. I think I might know most of this slightly better than you amigo, you'd better belive it.

[Worthy4England]

Ok, I'm not going to say that's right/desirable etc, but there does have to be some incentive if a judge is to give up a lucrative career at the Bar in order to take up that post.

Missed point Mummy. Judges lawyers,barristers etc rarely have any real grasp of the side of life they dispense justice to. If a judge got mugged at knifepoint he'd be much more inclined to sympathise with the victim than the mugger. I doubt many stockbroker belts share much in common with Johnson Fold, Tongue Moor or New Bury etc . A reformed criminal is the man to listen to on the wrongs of crime, not a judge who tries someone based on a university education. I am full of admiration for anyone who betters themselves to any degree by pursuing education, but there's a vast difference between lives in the real world.

You don't just get to go to uni then become a judge! You have to spend years in the courts, seeing and hearing things that are going to make your view of the world darker not lighter. Added to the fact judges are often limited by the limits of sentencing they can give, from laws they don't write, and I think you have the wrong target for your ire.

I thought sentencing was pretty much exclusively down to the Lord Chief Justice - who is actually a judge.

They may hear and see things in a Court Room that tempers their judgement, that's hardly an alternative to experiencing them first hand. It's sort of once removed in an ivory towers sort of sense.

Bit like people who have never actually encountered a Council Estate passing a view on how they operate at ground level.

[BWFC_Insane]

Do you have to experience something first hand to manage/run it/pass sentence on it?

I'm really not sure you do.

I've managed things that I haven't had any significant practical experience of or with and not suffered significantly for it.

Also crimes are committed by a vast range of the population not just oiks from council estates. I think its unrealistic for any person to have knowledge of every section of society where crimes are committed.

[Prufrock]

You don't just get to go to uni then become a judge! You have to spend years in the courts, seeing and hearing things that are going to make your view of the world darker not lighter. Added to the fact judges are often limited by the limits of sentencing they can give, from laws they don't write, and I think you have the wrong target for your ire.

It isn't a target for ire Pru, just my comments. Not many of those who write the laws do so from experience of breaking them either I'd assume. I think I might know most of this slightly better than you amigo, you'd better belive it.

Well what's it bloody well doing on this thread then

Again I think you, and perhaps Worthy too miss-underestimate the things they see in that job. It is not be the same as experiencing it, but I'd imagine photographs, and witness testimonies in rape, murder and assault charges would leave most people prejudiced against, not for the mugger or rapist.

Also, the stories on the telly are true, judges have their own reputation, some for being soft, some for being ruthless. It depends on the individual.

[Prufrock]

Ok, I'm not going to say that's right/desirable etc, but there does have to be some incentive if a judge is to give up a lucrative career at the Bar in order to take up that post.

Missed point Mummy. Judges lawyers,barristers etc rarely have any real grasp of the side of life they dispense justice to. If a judge got mugged at knifepoint he'd be much more inclined to sympathise with the victim than the mugger. I doubt many stockbroker belts share much in common with Johnson Fold, Tongue Moor or New Bury etc . A reformed criminal is the man to listen to on the wrongs of crime, not a judge who tries someone based on a university education. I am full of admiration for anyone who betters themselves to any degree by pursuing education, but there's a vast difference between lives in the real world.

You don't just get to go to uni then become a judge! You have to spend years in the courts, seeing and hearing things that are going to make your view of the world darker not lighter. Added to the fact judges are often limited by the limits of sentencing they can give, from laws they don't write, and I think you have the wrong target for your ire.

I thought sentencing was pretty much exclusively down to the Lord Chief Justice - who is actually a judge.

They may hear and see things in a Court Room that tempers their judgement, that's hardly an alternative to experiencing them first hand. It's sort of once removed in an ivory towers sort of sense.

Bit like people who have never actually encountered a Council Estate passing a view on how they operate at ground level.

Of course it isn't the same! But what is the alternative, have a group of 'folk from council estates, salt of the earth don't you know' knock the fook out of them for a bit before they are allowed their own gavel?

Sentencing may well be the jurisdiction of the Lord Chief Justice but it isn't as if all judges are a mono-personality group with all the same views on everything. A judge trying a case is still limited by sentencing guidlines and rules he or she didn't write. Like all people some of them are 'softer' than others.

[Worthy4England]

Do you have to experience something first hand to manage/run it/pass sentence on it?

I'm really not sure you do.

I've managed things that I haven't had any significant practical experience of or with and not suffered significantly for it.

Aye but the rest of your work colleagues may well have.

I think it's generally better to have people who understand stuff, managing it. That's not to say all people who understand stuff make good managers, but a manager who happens to understand it first hand too, I usually find better.

[thebish]

1. I'm not sure where this idea that a judge is more likely to sympathize with the mugger than the mugged comes from?