What are you reading tonight?

thebish · Post by **thebish** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:16 pm

I've found it...

it was imaginatively called "What If?"

there were two series..

the second series had..

what if...

the Germans discovered that the allies had cracked the Enigma code?
George Washington had lost the US War of Independence?
Alexander the Great had turned west?
The Russians had won the Space Race?

Professor Christopher Andrew of Cambridge University asks what if major turning points in history had taken a different turn. By altering a single plausible fact, he re-examines the events of the day. The result is always thought-provoking, and refreshes our memories of what did actually happen. In suggesting an alternative history, we can reflect on how extraordinary it is that things did indeed happen in the way they did.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/wha ... hive.shtml

Lofthouse Lower · Post by **Lofthouse Lower** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:27 pm

Wasn't Fatherland all about life had the Nazis won?

Also Armando Ianucci did Time Trumpet.......

Lofthouse Lower · Post by **Lofthouse Lower** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:27 pm

Wasn't Fatherland all about life had the Nazis won?

Also Armando Ianucci did Time Trumpet.......

Lord Kangana · Post by **Lord Kangana** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:13 pm

thebish wrote: What if
the Germans discovered that the allies had cracked the Enigma code?

Pretty poorly researched book considering that

A) They knew

and

B) Therefore added an extra wheel to the device, which took ages and ages for the allies to crack.

thebish · Post by **thebish** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:19 pm

It wasn't a book - it was on t'radio... I didn't hear it so I'm not sure how or whether it addressed your concerns - or how well it comes across in terms of research - I'll list the program contributors after the synopsis and you can judge for yourself if you think they knew what they were talking about...

you can listen to the actual program on the BBC i-player here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/wha ... 030424.ram

a synopsis of what they said:

What If... the Germans had discovered that the Allies had cracked Engima during WWII?

It's widely accepted that the intelligence the Allies gained from Enigma shortened the war by several years, and saved the lives of thousands of troops and civilians.

With hindsight it's surprising that the German High Command never realised that their master code had been cracked and was daily being monitored by the Bletchley Park codebreakers - an act that was daily contributing to their demise. Had they appreciated this, how would Hitler have reacted, what evasive action would he have taken, and how might this have affected the outcome of World War Two?

Chris Andrew visits Bletchley Park near Milton Keynes and speaks to several veteran codebreakers, imagining a very different outcome to the Second World War.

Signals intelligence (sigint) from Enigma proved invaluable for Allied victories in a numer of theatres: indeed, without this intelligence it's quite likely that things would have got progressively worse for the Allies.

In 1943 it's quite conceivable that the Allies would have lost the battle of the North Atlantic against the U-boats - the most protracted in naval history. This crucial lifeline across the North Atlantic which enabled the US to shift vast quantities of men and material to Europe (Eastern as well as Western Fronts) would thus have been broken, an enormous loss for the Allies. Consequently the D Day landings wouldn't have been able to go ahead on 6 June 1944 - so, following this argument, Germany couldn't have been defeated by 6 Aug 1945.

Arguably, therefore, the first A bomb would have been used not against Japan at Hiroshima but on mainland Europe, against Germany, and in all probability it would have been used to obliterate Berlin. The USA, after all, was heavily committed to a war policy of 'Germany First', ie: concluding the war in Europe before that in the Pacific and South-East Asia.

Speakers include:

Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent, Daily Telegraph

Christine Large, Director, Bletchley Park Trust

Morag Beattie, former WREN and bombe-operator at Bletchley Park

Mac Hobley, former Telecoms engineer and guide at Bletchley Park

John Harper, electrical engineer reconstructing a bombe at Bletchley Park

Lord Kangana · Post by **Lord Kangana** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:27 pm

Its one of the myriad myths that has grown up around WW2 (being the victors, we get to write history), that the Germans would never imagine we would try to break their codes. They were constantly playing a game of upgrading their equipment and methods (the least professional of their services - The Luftwaffe - was the source of much joy for code breaking because of their lazy procedures). And it wasn't the panacea that its presented as. Actually the most successful sources of intelligence was the Russian spy/ring "Lucy" during WW2.

Montreal Wanderer · Post by **Montreal Wanderer** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:24 pm

thebish wrote:
Montreal Wanderer wrote:
thebish wrote:the amazing truth behind the Gospel of Thomas.... noah's ark... the bermuda triangle.... atlantis..... the holy grail.... king arthur..... Dan Brown...
Like Insane I've found the thread entertaining but hang on, Bish, King Arthur existed. Not of course all the round table, Holy Grail, Sir Lancelot, Lady of the lake stuff that the French made up six centuries later. But it is highly probable that he existed and beat the Saxons in a few battles. Of course his name wasn't Arthur (it is unknown) and he wasn't a king (since we didn't have them then), but.... Anyway I'm fairly sure Dan Brown exists.

I didn't offer an opinion as to whether any of that list existed or not Monty.... you normally read stuff more carefully than that! (don't you?)

I criticised the "mystery behind" series of programmes that Channel 5 used to be so fond of about them....

(as for your king arthur existing... if he wasn't called arthur and he wasn't a king - what is left of king arthur?)

Alas, I've never seen the programme. I was only pointing out that the King Arthur legend was based on an actual Romano-British war chief in the fifth century. While his name is not recorded, his symbol was a bear (artor) and hence the name. Over the centuries much was invented and added to the legend. Not much left, I agree.

Montreal Wanderer · Post by **Montreal Wanderer** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:28 pm

On the enigma piece, I was surprised to read "Germany couldn't have been defeated by 6 Aug 1945." I always thought they surrendered in early May.

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:10 pm

Did you know that Kit Carson (US Adventurer) William F. Cody (known as Buffalo Bill) Samuel Colt (manufacturer of Colt revolvers) and Davy Crockett (American folk hero and frontiersman) were all Freemasons. Bunch of cowboys the lot of em.

thebish · Post by **thebish** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:18 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:Did you know that Kit Carson (US Adventurer) William F. Cody (known as Buffalo Bill) Samuel Colt (manufacturer of Colt revolvers) and Davy Crockett (American folk hero and frontiersman) were all Freemasons. Bunch of cowboys the lot of em.

are you reading that tonight?

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:22 pm

thebish wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote:Did you know that Kit Carson (US Adventurer) William F. Cody (known as Buffalo Bill) Samuel Colt (manufacturer of Colt revolvers) and Davy Crockett (American folk hero and frontiersman) were all Freemasons. Bunch of cowboys the lot of em.

are you reading that tonight?

Actually, I'm reading Michael Jecks "The Bishop Must Die".....honest.

thebish · Post by **thebish** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:47 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
thebish wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote:Did you know that Kit Carson (US Adventurer) William F. Cody (known as Buffalo Bill) Samuel Colt (manufacturer of Colt revolvers) and Davy Crockett (American folk hero and frontiersman) were all Freemasons. Bunch of cowboys the lot of em.

are you reading that tonight?
Actually, I'm reading Michael Jecks "The Bishop Must Die".....honest.

why am I not surprised!! enjoy Sir Baldwin and Bailiff Puttock and their knights templar romp!

TANGODANCER · Post by **TANGODANCER** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:46 pm

thebish wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote:
thebish wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote:Did you know that Kit Carson (US Adventurer) William F. Cody (known as Buffalo Bill) Samuel Colt (manufacturer of Colt revolvers) and Davy Crockett (American folk hero and frontiersman) were all Freemasons. Bunch of cowboys the lot of em.

are you reading that tonight?
Actually, I'm reading Michael Jecks "The Bishop Must Die".....honest.
why am I not surprised!! enjoy Sir Baldwin and Bailiff Puttock and their knights templar romp!

Quick check on Google was it ? Well, you wouldn't want to admit you actually read it now, would you?

thebish · Post by **thebish** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:52 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
thebish wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote:
thebish wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote:Did you know that Kit Carson (US Adventurer) William F. Cody (known as Buffalo Bill) Samuel Colt (manufacturer of Colt revolvers) and Davy Crockett (American folk hero and frontiersman) were all Freemasons. Bunch of cowboys the lot of em.

are you reading that tonight?
Actually, I'm reading Michael Jecks "The Bishop Must Die".....honest.
why am I not surprised!! enjoy Sir Baldwin and Bailiff Puttock and their knights templar romp!
Quick check on Google was it ? Well, you wouldn't want to admit you actually read it now, would you?

I always have a nice Puttock within reach....

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:36 pm

Currently reading Roy Hudds auto and enjoying it, funny bloke his radio shows are some of teh funniest stuff I have heard on the radio and I think he never really gets the recognition others get.

William the White · Post by **William the White** » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:52 pm

Finally, after owning the book for months and months and starting it twice before, I finished The Long Dusk by Victor Serge. This has been out of print - maybe for 50 years - and I only found a copy through repeated internet searches. finally got one from a second hand book store in Connecticut which, with shipping charges, cost me more than £50, making it the most expensive novel, by far, I've ever bought. And also I've now, at last, been able to read all of the novels of this difficult, obscure, magnificent writer.

It's tremendous. Powerful. Terrifying. The story is of refugees in France after the fall of Paris to the Nazis, fleeing south, desperately seeking a place of safety. Some are arrested. Some die. Some join the resistance. Some obtain that longed for visa to flee to America, Mexico, north Africa. The story is complex, intelligent, demanding - without a single protagonist, just a group of human beings, deeply flawed, endangered by Nazi tyranny and the willing collaboration of the Petainists.

There are only three Serge novels currently available in English, but they include his major masterwork, which I've recommended on here before: The Case of Comrade Tulayev - set in the Stalin purges.

William the White · Post by **William the White** » Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:54 pm

OK. I did it again. but it's a pretty good offer. The recently announced Booker shortlist, in hardback, six novels for £30.00. Great value, i reckon...

http://www.thebookpeople.co.uk/webapp/w ... tId=197721

P.O.S. · Post by **P.O.S.** » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:09 pm

I read "One Night In Turin" while I was away on hols last week, I really really enjoyed it. The author was given 9 months full access to the England squad in the run-up and during Italia 90 and also describes his experiences that fans had in the tournament from being forced to play all our group games in Sardinia to keep our fans away from the real world cup party, up until the loss int he semi final.

Some great stories in there - and since it was written in late 1990 it ends on a very positive note... "So we can look forward to Euro 92 and USA 94 with the highest of hopes..." ahem.

William the White · Post by **William the White** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:20 am

William the White wrote:OK. I did it again. but it's a pretty good offer. The recently announced Booker shortlist, in hardback, six novels for £30.00. Great value, i reckon...

http://www.thebookpeople.co.uk/webapp/w ... tId=197721

They've arrived now and partner and I both grinning at set of new hardbacks we really should not have bought (she's a quicker and more committed reader than me, but even she has a significant backlog)...

Hey ho...

I'm currently reading an arabic novel called The Theocrat by Bensalem Himmich. It is a very weird literary experience - and I'm hoping it might turn into a novel very soon... Up to p53 and no sign so far of a story...

William the White · Post by **William the White** » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:51 pm

The Theocrat was one of the most frustrating books I've ever managed to finish (and I'm still not sure why I persevered).

The story itself - of a theocratic tyranny - should have legs, but it's incoherently told and seems to lack narrative purpose, direction and drive. The only section that rrally worked for me was right at the end when the tyrant has been overthrown and his kind and gentle sister takes his place and finds herself driven by the necessities of state to kill and repress her opponents - just as the tyrant had done.

A bleak message - that the business of good government entails bloodshed and repression.

The translation may be accurate, but it's terrible. Ornate, archaic language, dialogue unsayable, clearly the work of an academic rather than a writer...

I now turn to the Shelf of Shame wondering what next?

And is anyone but me reading anything at the moment?

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